The Pen

[vegasbob]

They haven't DFA'd Thornburg yet so I guess they'll give him another shot or two in blowout spots. The team is much more patient than we are, which is generally a good thing.

 

You're right. Some Talksoxers would have 300% roster turnover per season, but the guys who survive would really be great.

[vegasbob]

In general , the bullpen has exceeded even the most optimistic of expectations. But we will always find something to be upset about . In this case , it is Thornburg. Kill him .

 

Your first sentence pretty much covers one of the positives from the 2019 season, which is turning itself around a game at a time.

[mvp 78]

You're right. Some Talksoxers would have 300% roster turnover per season, but the guys who survive would really be great.

 

If that's just a constant turnover of bullpen arms, so be it.

[Kimmi]

If you exclude one game, Mejia has a 0.87 ERA in 10 1/3 innings, with 10k/0bb.

 

Call him the f*** up and get rid of Thornburg or Brewer.

 

Just Say No to Mejia.

[Kimmi]

In general , the bullpen has exceeded even the most optimistic of expectations. But we will always find something to be upset about . In this case , it is Thornburg. Kill him .

 

No, the pen has exceeded your expectations.

 

Some of us have been fine with the pen all along.

[S5Dewey]

Most of his problems probably stem from only pitching 24 innings total over the last two seasons...

 

Ya. Sucking every time someone takes them mound will limit their innings.

[mvp 78]

Just Say No to Mejia.

 

I like a good pen. I say yes.

[notin]

I’d like to see Mejia, too.

 

Demote Smith, who was only called up to start a game that got rained out anyway. And the Sox still have two open spots on the 40-man roster.

 

I suppose the concern is similar to Thornburg in that he hasn’t pitched much in recent years and you can only dedicate so many bullpen spots to rusty pitchers relegated solely to mop up work...

[notin]

Ya. Sucking every time someone takes them mound will limit their innings.

 

He didn’t miss a single inning in 2017 for that reason. Thornburg is trying to come back from an injury that is very difficult to come back from...

[Slasher9]

Just Say No to Mejia.

 

agree. chavis is more than enough for me to handle at the minute..

[S5Dewey]

He didn’t miss a single inning in 2017 for that reason. Thornburg is trying to come back from an injury that is very difficult to come back from...

 

That's true, but it's also ancient history. In 2018 he stunk the place up every time he tried to come back, which is why he didn't get more innings.

 

At some point the team has to say that they've given this guy enough chances. Do you want to keep running Pedroia out there every month or so until his contract is up because he's "trying to come back from an injury that is very difficult to come back from..."?

[Bellhorn04]

That's true, but it's also ancient history. In 2018 he stunk the place up every time he tried to come back, which is why he didn't get more innings.

 

At some point the team has to say that they've given this guy enough chances.

 

And at some point they probably will.

 

But I think they're doing a heck of a job assembling a workable bullpen so far.

[moonslav59]

That's true, but it's also ancient history. In 2018 he stunk the place up every time he tried to come back, which is why he didn't get more innings.

 

At some point the team has to say that they've given this guy enough chances. Do you want to keep running Pedroia out there every month or so until his contract is up because he's "trying to come back from an injury that is very difficult to come back from..."?

 

The only possible reason I can see for hanging onto Thornburg is that they think he can (will) improve. I'm not sure, if they think he has been on one long recovery trail, and he's still not back to 100%, or if they are just praying he suddenly remember how he used to pitch.

 

I have nothing against Thornburg: his injury is a tough one, but I'm with S5. He's at a point now where we can only use him in mop-up games.

[notin]

That's true, but it's also ancient history. In 2018 he stunk the place up every time he tried to come back, which is why he didn't get more innings.

 

At some point the team has to say that they've given this guy enough chances. Do you want to keep running Pedroia out there every month or so until his contract is up because he's "trying to come back from an injury that is very difficult to come back from..."?

 

 

It’s absolutely NOT ancient history. Thoracic outlet syndrome cause all kinds of pain and circulation problems, especially in the neck, shoulder and arms. It reduces circulation and can lead to all sorts of problems.

 

This is the same condition that ended the careers of pitchers like Chris Carpenter and Noah Lowry and put huge gaps into the careers of Chris Young and Clayton Richard. It’s very serious and makes Tommy John surgery look like taking two aspirin n comparison.

 

Thornburg is coming back nicely in some ways. And if he can turn the corner soon, he’ll be more effective than anyone in Pawtucket. The Red Sox know this.

 

And in case you haven’t noticed, the Red Sox are actually trying to give Pedroia as many chances as possible. But are you saying he should be released as well?

 

Maybe you think it’s also time to cut bait with Sale, too...

[notin]

The only possible reason I can see for hanging onto Thornburg is that they think he can (will) improve. I'm not sure, if they think he has been on one long recovery trail, and he's still not back to 100%, or if they are just praying he suddenly remember how he used to pitch.

 

I have nothing against Thornburg: his injury is a tough one, but I'm with S5. He's at a point now where we can only use him in mop-up games.

 

 

He has improved. His fastball is up about 1mph from last year.

 

His problem is location. When Thornburg was an effective reliever in Milwaukee, he lived on the inner and outer thirds of the plate. Right now, he keeps missing inside and outside, which means his release point is off and the reason his walks have been so high. He’s been compensating by throwing the ball over the middle of the plate (like every pitcher trying to find the corners does), which is why he is getting hit harder.

 

Releasing Thornburg and keeping less talented pitchers in the pen like Marcus Walden or Brian Johnson for example, will be a huge mistake in the long run. The Sox need to let Thornburg rediscover avdelivery that finds the corners.

 

And they clearly know this.

 

At some point, they might decide this isn’t going to happen soon enough. But not likely in early May...

[S5Dewey]

 

And in case you haven’t noticed, the Red Sox are actually trying to give Pedroia as many chances as possible. But are you saying he should be released as well?

 

Maybe you think it’s also time to cut bait with Sale, too...

 

Congratulations on merging two complete overreactions into one post, both of which are so ridiculous that I'm not going to glorify them with a response.

 

I don't dislike Thornburg, I've never even met the guy, but since I've seen very little (as in NO) improvement in his results since he came back, I feel justified in asking how long the FO is going to allow him to occupy a roster spot. As you pointed out, this is the kind of thing that has ended the careers of more than one player.

 

What is it they say about insanity, that it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

[mvp 78]

Thornburg has had just 2 clean appearances all year. Just because he used to have more talent than other guys doesn't mean it's still there.

 

Call up Mejia.

[mvp 78]

He has improved. His fastball is up about 1mph from last year.

 

His best season was 2016. His velo is still down overall from then. He might have better stuff than last year, but it's not near what it once was.

[notin]

Thornburg has had just 2 clean appearances all year. Just because he used to have more talent than other guys doesn't mean it's still there.

 

Call up Mejia.

 

I’m all for calling up Mejia. But DFAing Thornburg while keeping Josh Smith would be stupid.

 

There is enough room in the Sox pen for both...

[notin]

Congratulations on merging two complete overreactions into one post, both of which are so ridiculous that I'm not going to glorify them with a response.

 

I don't dislike Thornburg, I've never even met the guy, but since I've seen very little (as in NO) improvement in his results since he came back, I feel justified in asking how long the FO is going to allow him to occupy a roster spot. As you pointed out, this is the kind of thing that has ended the careers of more than one player.

 

What is it they say about insanity, that it's doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

 

You need to work on your argument skills if you think you can merge two situations into one and then later call them separate issues. Try making two different posts, for example.

 

The bottom line is, Thornburg is actually showing signs of returning to the pitcher he once was. Cutting bait now would be reactionary...

[notin]

His best season was 2016. His velo is still down overall from then. He might have better stuff than last year, but it's not near what it once was.

 

 

It’s down from 94.1 to 93.8. If that drop is too much, Price should have been released 3 years ago...

[mvp 78]

I’m all for calling up Mejia. But DFAing Thornburg while keeping Josh Smith would be stupid.

 

There is enough room in the Sox pen for both...

 

If they are going to treat Thornburg like a rule V guy and just bury him in the pen with little chance of seeing action except in blowouts, I'm fine with it.

[mvp 78]

It’s down from 94.1 to 93.8. If that drop is too much, Price should have been released 3 years ago...

 

I was looking at Fangraphs. They have his FB speed from 2016 as 95.1 and this year at 94.2. https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=10688&position=P

 

If he was still pitching well with the velo drop, it wouldn't be an issue. The bigger issue is that he's a guy with not a huge track record of success. He had 2 good years in MIL, that's it.

[notin]

If they are going to treat Thornburg like a rule V guy and just bury him in the pen with little chance of seeing action except in blowouts, I'm fine with it.

 

 

That’s probably the short term plan.

 

At least Thornburg is showing signs of returning to the pitcher DD acquired. Players without the injury/recovery excuse like Colten Brewe should be of bigger concern. Maybe we’re seeing why SD refused to add him to their 40 man roster. (And Esteban Quiroz has an .860 OPS in AAA right now. Granted, that’s a PCL OPS, so dial it back a bit.)...

[notin]

I was looking at Fangraphs. They have his FB speed from 2016 as 95.1 and this year at 94.2. https://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=10688&position=P

 

If he was still pitching well with the velo drop, it wouldn't be an issue. The bigger issue is that he's a guy with not a huge track record of success. He had 2 good years in MIL, that's it.

 

 

That’s 4 seam only. My numbers included 2 seamers, so they’re a bit lower but more encompassing. Look 2 sections above. In Pitch Type.

 

Both sections agree his velocity is returning.

 

Bear in mind his career as a reliever is short as well. He came up as a starter...

[mvp 78]

That’s probably the short term plan.

 

At least Thornburg is showing signs of returning to the pitcher DD acquired. Players without the injury/recovery excuse like Colten Brewe should be of bigger concern. Maybe we’re seeing why SD refused to add him to their 40 man roster. (And Esteban Quiroz has an .860 OPS in AAA right now. Granted, that’s a PCL OPS, so dial it back a bit.)...

 

I can't worry about losing guys like Quiroz. More often than not, they are easily replaceable. I had high hopes for him, but I still have higher hopes for Marco Hernandez who is finally healthy and playing ball again.

[mvp 78]

That’s 4 seam only. My numbers included 2 seamers, so they’re a bit lower but more encompassing. Look 2 sections above. In Pitch Type.

 

Both sections agree his velocity is returning.

 

Bear in mind his career as a reliever is short as well. He came up as a starter...

 

Then maybe he's changing his mix with 2 seamers and 4 seamers? 2 and 4 seamers should definitely be tracked differently as they are really different pitches.

[notin]

Then maybe he's changing his mix with 2 seamers and 4 seamers? 2 and 4 seamers should definitely be tracked differently as they are really different pitches.

 

 

Agreed. But those Fangraphs folks are really good at providing data. I can’t complain about what they do...

[notin]

I can't worry about losing guys like Quiroz. More often than not, they are easily replaceable. I had high hopes for him, but I still have higher hopes for Marco Hernandez who is finally healthy and playing ball again.

 

 

I’ve given up on him. Last I checked, his average exit velocity was among the lowest in LB, behind many pitchers.

 

If he can come back, it is a huge bonus. But I’m not even sure what his ceiling was...

[S5Dewey]

You need to work on your argument skills if you think you can merge two situations into one and then later call them separate issues. Try making two different posts, for example.

 

The bottom line is, Thornburg is actually showing signs of returning to the pitcher he once was. Cutting bait now would be reactionary...

 

This is why it's almost impossible to have a rational discussion with you: Your first impulse is to try to discredit the person you're having the discussion with rather than talk about the issue at hand.

 

in the month of March Thornburg's ERA was 9.00 ans his WHIP was 1.50.

In the month of April his ERA was 7.45 and his WHIP was 1.45.

This month he's had one appearance and gave up 3 hits and 2 runs.

 

Please tell me how that's returning to the pitcher he once was.