The Pen

[moonslav59]

Thornburg is hardly the problem. He has been used mainly with a big lead or a big deficit. He has a potential upside based on his history, and it is not hurting anything to use him this way to see if he can regain his form . Let's not scapegoat him .

 

I'm not blaming him for our losses.

 

I do think our pen could be improved by replacing him with someone we could think of using beyond just blowouts.

[notin]

I'm not blaming him for our losses.

 

I do think our pen could be improved by replacing him with someone we could think of using beyond just blowouts.

 

Again, if the Sox need bullpen depth, they’re going to demote before DFA.

 

When pitchers start coming back, the first moves will be to demote Smith, Weber, and/or Brewer.

 

DFAing Thornburg does nothing since Dombrowski has been hesitant to add a Major League arm with any sort of track record anyway...

[Bellhorn04]

Here is a somewhat troubling fact : Barnes and Brasier have a combined total of 24 career save opportunities . Between them , they have 11 saves and 13 blown saves .

 

This is a case of bad stats, Denny.

 

Relief pitchers are charged with 'blown saves' even if they were in a 'hold' situation.

 

To figure out the correct numbers you have to add in the 'holds' earned as well.

[jung]

Again, if the Sox need bullpen depth, they’re going to demote before DFA.

 

When pitchers start coming back, the first moves will be to demote Smith, Weber, and/or Brewer.

 

DFAing Thornburg does nothing since Dombrowski has been hesitant to add a Major League arm with any sort of track record anyway...

 

After the Saturday game I suspect the attraction to Thorny for Cora is to have a ready made surrender flag to throw up if he wants to send his team a message...like wake up, your s*** DOES stink.

[dgalehouse]

This is a case of bad stats, Denny.

 

Relief pitchers are charged with 'blown saves' even if they were in a 'hold' situation.

 

To figure out the correct numbers you have to add in the 'holds' earned as well.

Not sure about that . Those are just the save opportunities. If they have 11 saves in 24 opportunities, there would be 13 blown saves .

[Bellhorn04]

Not sure about that . Those are just the save opportunities. If they have 11 saves in 24 opportunities, there would be 13 blown saves .

 

I'm 100% sure. You can be charged with a blown save if you come in in the 6th inning with a lead. If you give up the lead it's a blown save. If you protect it, it's a hold.

 

Look up the game logs on Baseball-Reference and you'll see the holds.

[dgalehouse]

I'm 100% sure. You can be charged with a blown save if you come in in the 6th inning with a lead. If you give up the lead it's a blown save. If you protect it, it's a hold.

 

Look up the game logs on Baseball-Reference and you'll see the holds.

 

I know you can be charged with a blown save in a hold situation , unfair as it is . But if you have converted 11 saves out of 24 save opportunities, where does that leave you ?

[Bellhorn04]

I know you can be charged with a blown save in a hold situation , unfair as it is . But if you have converted 11 saves out of 24 save opportunities, where does that leave you ?

 

Those are bad and confusing stats you're citing. It's not your fault, it's the way the stats read. But they should include holds. The 'save opportunities' were not necessarily real save opportunities.

 

For example, in that ugly 5-3 loss to the Yankees this year Brasier came in in the 7th and gave up the grand slam to Gardner. He was charged with a blown save.

 

But you know very well that he wasn't brought in to pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th. He was not going to get the save there no matter what. The best he was going to do was get a hold.

[dgalehouse]

Those are bad and confusing stats you're citing. It's not your fault, it's the way the stats read. But they should include holds. The 'save opportunities' were not necessarily real save opportunities.

 

For example, in that ugly 5-3 loss to the Yankees this year Brasier came in in the 7th and gave up the grand slam to Gardner. He was charged with a blown save.

 

But you know very well that he wasn't brought in to pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th. He was not going to get the save there no matter what. The best he was going to do was get a hold.

I don't know . Now I am confused. If they have 11 saves out of 24 opportunities, what happened to the rest ? These are career numbers . Certainly , there were many more hold situations than just 24 .

[Bellhorn04]

I don't know . Now I am confused. If they have 11 saves out of 24 opportunities, what happened to the rest ? These are career numbers . Certainly , there were many more hold situations than just 24 .

 

They don't include the holds in the numbers you're looking at, that's the whole problem.

 

In 2018 Barnes had 0 saves, 25 holds, 3 blown saves. So really he was 25 for 28 in hold/save opportunities. Which makes more sense.

[dgalehouse]

They don't include the holds in the numbers you're looking at, that's the whole problem.

 

In 2018 Barnes had 0 saves, 25 holds, 3 blown saves. So really he was 25 for 28 in hold/save opportunities. Which makes more sense.

 

Well , I still ask , if they had 11 career saves and 24 career save ( not hold ) opportunities, what happened in the other 13 save opportunities?

[moonslav59]

Well , I still ask , if they had 11 career saves and 24 career save ( not hold ) opportunities, what happened in the other 13 save opportunities?

 

They could be taken out without blowing the save before the game ends, and the next guy gets the save or BS.

[dgalehouse]

They could be taken out without blowing the save before the game ends, and the next guy gets the save or BS.

 

We have no way of knowing that now . 13 times seems like a lot for that to happen. Don't know about Barnes , but I don't recall that happening with Brasier . These things can get complicated.

[dgalehouse]

Those are bad and confusing stats you're citing. It's not your fault, it's the way the stats read. But they should include holds. The 'save opportunities' were not necessarily real save opportunities.

 

For example, in that ugly 5-3 loss to the Yankees this year Brasier came in in the 7th and gave up the grand slam to Gardner. He was charged with a blown save.

 

But you know very well that he wasn't brought in to pitch the 7th, 8th and 9th. He was not going to get the save there no matter what. The best he was going to do was get a hold.

 

But I'm pretty sure the game Brasier blew in New York was not counted as a save opportunity. The fact remains , they have had 24 " save opportunities " and just 11 career saves .

[fxkatt]

I think we can skip the blown saves, if they are so open to interpretation and context, and just look at the 11 saves. That's what's important. What it says is that we have two very inexperienced, and not particularly effective, closers. That is not good, but I suppose one can make the point, that it is not necessarily bad.

[Bellhorn04]

But I'm pretty sure the game Brasier blew in New York was not counted as a save opportunity.

 

That's where you're wrong. Brasier got charged with a blown save there.

[dgalehouse]

That's where you're wrong. Brasier got charged with a blown save there.

 

Bell , that doesn't explain away the situation here . I'll say it again , in a different way , between Barnes and Brasier, they have had 24 career save opportunities, and just 11 saves . Forget holds and hold opportunities.

[Bellhorn04]

Bell , that doesn't explain away the situation here . I'll say it again , in a different way , between Barnes and Brasier, they have had 24 career save opportunities, and just 11 saves . Forget holds and hold opportunities.

 

I can't explain it any further. Stick with your numbers. Barnes and Brasier suck.

[vegasbob]

I can't explain it any further. Stick with your numbers. Barnes and Brasier suck.

 

A relievers own ERA is probably as deceptive a stat as the save/hold/W&L record. The real measurement of effectiveness should be "inherited runners who score" , followed by walks and HBP, followed by wild pitches (allows runner advancement)

[dgalehouse]

I can't explain it any further. Stick with your numbers. Barnes and Brasier suck.

 

You are missing the point. I'm not saying they suck . Just giving numbers . Are they right or not ? If you have 24 save opportunities, and you have 11 saves , it means you failed to get the save thirteen times . It has nothing at all to do with holds . I honestly don't know what you are missing here .

[notin]

But I'm pretty sure the game Brasier blew in New York was not counted as a save opportunity. The fact remains , they have had 24 " save opportunities " and just 11 career saves .

 

 

Yes it was a blown save.

 

Anytime a reliever loses a lead of 3 runs or less, it’s a blown save, even if it happens in the third inning...

[dgalehouse]

Yes it was a blown save.

 

Anytime a reliever loses a lead of 3 runs or less, it’s a blown save, even if it happens in the third inning...

 

I know it was a blown save . That is not the point . The whole point is that they have had 24 save opportunities and just 11 saves . That means that 13 times they failed to get the save . It has nothing to do with what happens in a non save situation. This is frustrating. I don't understand what is so hard about this .

[Bellhorn04]

You are missing the point. I'm not saying they suck . Just giving numbers . Are they right or not ? If you have 24 save opportunities, and you have 11 saves , it means you failed to get the save thirteen times . It has nothing at all to do with holds . I honestly don't know what you are missing here .

 

You're just not getting it. A blown hold is treated as a blown save. Brasier got a blown save even though he came in in the 7th and was not going to get a save.

 

It's f***ed-up stats.

[notin]

You're just not getting it. A blown hold is treated as a blown save. Brasier got a blown save even though he came in in the 7th and was not going to get a save.

 

It's f***ed-up stats.

 

Really it says more about them as relievers in general than anything related to ninth inning activity...

[notin]

I know it was a blown save . That is not the point . The whole point is that they have had 24 save opportunities and just 11 saves . That means that 13 times they failed to get the save . It has nothing to do with what happens in a non save situation. This is frustrating. I don't understand what is soo hard about this .

 

 

If you knew it was a blown save, you said the opposite in the post I quoted. Unless you already acknowledged your error...

[dgalehouse]

You're just not getting it. A blown hold is treated as a blown save. Brasier got a blown save even though he came in in the 7th and was not going to get a save.

 

It's f***ed-up stats.

 

Bell , I am getting it . I understand exactly how you can get a blown save in a hold situation. But that is not the point . The point is that , in 24 save situations, they have 11 saves . That means they failed to get the save in 13 of those opportunities. It has nothing at all to do with hold opportunities. I can't make it any clearer than that . And I am not saying they suck . In fact , I like Barnes as the closer .

[dgalehouse]

If you knew it was a blown save, you said the opposite in the post I quoted. Unless you already acknowledged your error...

 

That is completely irrelevant to the point . Of course I know about the blown save rules . This is as plain as I can state it ; they had 24 save ( not hold ) opportunities. They converted 11 of those into saves . That means that 13 times they failed to get the save in a save situation. Plain and simple.

[notin]

That is completely irrelevant to the point . Of course I know about the blown save rules . This is as plain as I can state it ; they had 24 save ( not hold ) opportunities. They converted 11 of those into saves . That means that 13 times they failed to get the save in a save situation. Plain and simple.

 

 

But plenty of them were hold opportunities, unless you think Cora was going to leave a pitcher in for a 3 inning save.

 

Brasier has 2 blown saves this year, but only one was a ninth inning BS. Barnes has 3 blown saves this year, but one was in the 7th inning (against Colorado the other night) and the other two were in the eighth inning. None in the ninth.

 

Actually Barnes and Brasier have been quite effective in the ninth inning traditional closer role. It’s been the earlier innings where they struggle. But Barnes in particular has been handed tougher assignments, like always facing the opposing best hitters. So it’s more understandable that he would have the occasional rough outing...

[dgalehouse]

But plenty of them were hold opportunities, unless you think Cora was going to leave a pitcher in for a 3 inning save.

 

Brasier has 2 blown saves this year, but only one was a ninth inning BS. Barnes has 3 blown saves this year, but one was in the 7th inning (against Colorado the other night) and the other two were in the eighth inning. None in the ninth.

 

Actually Barnes and Brasier have been quite effective in the ninth inning traditional closer role. It’s been the earlier innings where they struggle. But Barnes in particular has been handed tougher assignments, like always facing the opposing best hitters. So it’s more understandable that he would have the occasional rough outing...

They have had 24 save opportunities. That means the ninth inning. That is all I am talking about . They have 11 saves out of those 24 opportunities. It has nothing at all to do with the eighth inning. Just the ninth inning save situation.

[Bellhorn04]

They have had 24 save opportunities. That means the ninth inning. That is all I am talking about . They have 11 saves out of those 24 opportunities. It has nothing at all to do with the eighth inning. Just the ninth inning save situation.

 

So where are you getting the information that they have had 24 ninth inning save opportunities?