The Pen

[dgalehouse]

The way the game is today , the bullpen comes into play just about every day . If it is substandard, it will be exposed . Say what you will , the pen is still the number one concern about this team .

[TylerD]

You talked about how our starters didn't go deep, last year.

 

Just about every stat and metric has us 8th to 12th out of 30 teams in 2018.

 

Not even close to below average.

 

Cora was brilliant with using the bullpen and we also had starters in there as well in the postseason. Kimbrel also took a lot of the pressure off (through regular season anyway) he was s*** for the most part in the playoffs. Not sure what you mean by I said our starters didn’t go deep..... our starting rotation was fantastic in the regular season. Playoffs the bullpen came up big. I’ve never denied that. Regular season. Individual bullpen was not good. Simple as that. Kimbrel as a closer was good however.

[oldtimer]

The amount of work the pen is getting could result in dead arms later in the season. I would hope we would explore using other 40 man roster pitchers and sort out the wheat from the chaff soon. We have D. Hernandez and T. Latkins who might fit in instead of Poyner and other weaker performers. It would be great if the work could be spread out more equitably.

 

Seems as the suggestion I made on the 21st has come to pass. Hernandez and Latkins up and Poyner down. The BP has been used too much to be sustainable so the move was necessary.

 

Wish I could make a suggestion to improve the offense. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any simple solutions to that issue. I have been on Beni for not pulling more. He could improve his productivity if he would do it, but his style is that of an Oppo swing. Don't see much to do with our weak sisters in the lineup other than to replace them.

[TylerD]

Seems as the suggestion I made on the 21st has come to pass. Hernandez and Latkins up and Poyner down. The BP has been used too much to be sustainable so the move was necessary.

 

Wish I could make a suggestion to improve the offense. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any simple solutions to that issue. I have been on Beni for not pulling more. He could improve his productivity if he would do it, but his style is that of an Oppo swing. Don't see much to do with our weak sisters in the lineup other than to replace them.

 

Agreed a shadow of what we were last season. I thought the sweep over Tampa was a sign of good things to come. But this series proves otherwise.

[moonslav59]

Cora was brilliant with using the bullpen and we also had starters in there as well in the postseason. Kimbrel also took a lot of the pressure off (through regular season anyway) he was s*** for the most part in the playoffs. Not sure what you mean by I said our starters didn’t go deep..... our starting rotation was fantastic in the regular season. Playoffs the bullpen came up big. I’ve never denied that. Regular season. Individual bullpen was not good. Simple as that. Kimbrel as a closer was good however.

 

Sorry, I confused you with another poster on starters going deep.

 

Our pen was clearly above average last season. Here are some major standards:

 

Red Sox 2018 Pen Rankings

 

12th WAR (3.9)

 

4th ERA- (83 & 2 from 2nd)

 

11th xFIP (4.05 & just 0.02 from 8th)

 

T11th WHIP (1.29 & just 0.02 from 9th)

 

8th SIERA (3.70)

 

Nothing here even hints at below average. One could argue they were close to top 3rd tier over middle 3rd.

 

 

[TylerD]

Sorry, I confused you with another poster on starters going deep.

 

Our pen was clearly above average last season. Here are some major standards:

 

Red Sox 2018 Pen Rankings

 

12th WAR (3.9)

 

4th ERA- (83 & 2 from 2nd)

 

11th xFIP (4.05 & just 0.02 from 8th)

 

T11th WHIP (1.29 & just 0.02 from 9th)

 

8th SIERA (3.70)

 

Nothing here even hints at below average. One could argue they were close to top 3rd tier over middle 3rd.

 

 

 

Fair enough. Never looked at the break down. I know Kimbrel was awesome and they were awesome in the postseason. But couldn’t remember the stats in regular season. Seems hard to believe.

[moonslav59]

Fair enough. Never looked at the break down. I know Kimbrel was awesome and they were awesome in the postseason. But couldn’t remember the stats in regular season. Seems hard to believe.

 

Barnes had very good numbers.

 

OPS against vs our starters: .697

 

OPS against vs our relievers: .700

 

Some individual stats as RP'ers ONLY:

 

ERA Pitcher IP in pen

2.74 Kimbrel 62

3.65 Barnes 62

2.63 Velazquez 55

3.27 Workman 41

1.60 Brasier 34

1.52 Wright 30

3.22 Poyner 22

3.68 Walden 15

3.77 Smith 14

 

Not horrible:

4.39 Kelly 66

4.20 Hembree 60

4.19Johnson 39

 

 

[TylerD]

Barnes had very good numbers.

 

OPS against vs our starters: .697

 

OPS against vs our relievers: .700

 

Some individual stats as RP'ers ONLY:

 

ERA Pitcher IP in pen

2.74 Kimbrel 62

3.65 Barnes 62

2.63 Velazquez 55

3.27 Workman 41

1.60 Brasier 34

1.52 Wright 30

3.22 Poyner 22

3.68 Walden 15

3.77 Smith 14

 

Not horrible:

4.39 Kelly 66

4.20 Hembree 60

4.19Johnson 39

 

 

Kelly was definitely a disappointment down the stretch. The bullpen wasn’t needed much as our rotation was so strong and Kimbrel usually got the 9th inning if need be. Wasn’t much pressure on them either which is a huge factor. We generally had a 3 or 4 run lead. Things are much different when the game is close. This year the offense isn’t producing and the starting rotation is going 5 or 6 innings. More pressure on the bullpen and unfortunately they haven’t been playing good outside of Barnes and Braiser.

[moonslav59]

Kelly was definitely a disappointment down the stretch. The bullpen wasn’t needed much as our rotation was so strong and Kimbrel usually got the 9th inning if need be. Wasn’t much pressure on them either which is a huge factor. We generally had a 3 or 4 run lead. Things are much different when the game is close. This year the offense isn’t producing and the starting rotation is going 5 or 6 innings. More pressure on the bullpen and unfortunately they haven’t been playing good outside of Barnes and Braiser.

 

This year is different. My point was just about last year. Yes, Kimbrel made us a plus pen, but Barnes, Velazquez, Workman, Brasier and Wright gave us over 220 innings of plus relief pitching.

 

While Kelly, Hembree & Johnson gave us over 180 innings of not so great pen work, they weren't horrible enough to bring us below average overall.

[jacksonianmarch]

When you subtract Kimbrel and Kelly, you subtract an elite closer and semi reliable pen arm. When you subtract Wright and Johnson and move Velazquez to the rotation, you lose any multi inning depth you had. When you replace them with Brewer and ???, you create a depth problem. This forces guys who aren’t suited for high leverage roles to be pushed into high leverage roles. This is why you saw Hembree in a tied game and Brewer in a tied game only to blow it. You’ve got two reliable pen arms. Walden is showing good signs early, maybe he becomes a third. The rest are a conglomerate of dumpster fires. I know you brought up Lakins. Who knows how he fares. I know you had Hernandez up, but I expect him to go to Portland and work on being a starter. But as of now, if your starter doesn’t go seven and hand over a lead, it’s a crap shoot as to whether you’ll make it to the reliable part of the pen. This is why every win you’ve had has been close.

[Bellhorn04]

When you subtract Kimbrel and Kelly, you subtract an elite closer and semi reliable pen arm. When you subtract Wright and Johnson and move Velazquez to the rotation, you lose any multi inning depth you had. When you replace them with Brewer and ???, you create a depth problem. This forces guys who aren’t suited for high leverage roles to be pushed into high leverage roles. This is why you saw Hembree in a tied game and Brewer in a tied game only to blow it. You’ve got two reliable pen arms. Walden is showing good signs early, maybe he becomes a third. The rest are a conglomerate of dumpster fires. I know you brought up Lakins. Who knows how he fares. I know you had Hernandez up, but I expect him to go to Portland and work on being a starter. But as of now, if your starter doesn’t go seven and hand over a lead, it’s a crap shoot as to whether you’ll make it to the reliable part of the pen. This is why every win you’ve had has been close.

 

It's one of the reasons. The other is that the offense hasn't supplied any big leads. It's been a team effort clusterf**k.

[moonslav59]

When you subtract Kimbrel and Kelly, you subtract an elite closer and semi reliable pen arm. When you subtract Wright and Johnson and move Velazquez to the rotation, you lose any multi inning depth you had. When you replace them with Brewer and ???, you create a depth problem. This forces guys who aren’t suited for high leverage roles to be pushed into high leverage roles. This is why you saw Hembree in a tied game and Brewer in a tied game only to blow it. You’ve got two reliable pen arms. Walden is showing good signs early, maybe he becomes a third. The rest are a conglomerate of dumpster fires. I know you brought up Lakins. Who knows how he fares. I know you had Hernandez up, but I expect him to go to Portland and work on being a starter. But as of now, if your starter doesn’t go seven and hand over a lead, it’s a crap shoot as to whether you’ll make it to the reliable part of the pen. This is why every win you’ve had has been close.

 

I think they felt having Brasier for a full season would make up for Kelly, since he was only good in the first half of 2018 (and the playoffs).

 

Not replacing Kimbrel may haunt DD, but let's see what happens this summer. As long as we make the playoffs, all that matters is what the pen looks like in October.

[notin]

Seems as the suggestion I made on the 21st has come to pass. Hernandez and Latkins up and Poyner down. The BP has been used too much to be sustainable so the move was necessary.

 

Wish I could make a suggestion to improve the offense. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be any simple solutions to that issue. I have been on Beni for not pulling more. He could improve his productivity if he would do it, but his style is that of an Oppo swing. Don't see much to do with our weak sisters in the lineup other than to replace them.

 

Hanley Ramirez is a free agent. Sure his 65 OPS+ doesn’t look enticing, but it’s double Steve Pearce’s...

[dgalehouse]

I wonder if Hernandez will stay for at least a while . He might help the bullpen . Or he could could start and Velazquez could go to the pen .

[notin]

I wonder if Hernandez will stay for at least a while . He might help the bullpen . Or he could could start and Velazquez could go to the pen .

 

He’s already been demoted.

 

Teams are now allowed to call up a 26th player for double headers. (New rule this year.) That was why he got the call in the first place...

[TylerD]

When you subtract Kimbrel and Kelly, you subtract an elite closer and semi reliable pen arm. When you subtract Wright and Johnson and move Velazquez to the rotation, you lose any multi inning depth you had. When you replace them with Brewer and ???, you create a depth problem. This forces guys who aren’t suited for high leverage roles to be pushed into high leverage roles. This is why you saw Hembree in a tied game and Brewer in a tied game only to blow it. You’ve got two reliable pen arms. Walden is showing good signs early, maybe he becomes a third. The rest are a conglomerate of dumpster fires. I know you brought up Lakins. Who knows how he fares. I know you had Hernandez up, but I expect him to go to Portland and work on being a starter. But as of now, if your starter doesn’t go seven and hand over a lead, it’s a crap shoot as to whether you’ll make it to the reliable part of the pen. This is why every win you’ve had has been close.

 

Would also help if the rotation could give us more than 4 or 5 innings. Yet again Sale didn't go past 5 yesterday, the bullpen is just flat out tired right now. It remains to be seen if it will haunt us or not by not replacing Kimbrel...... That honestly is the least of my worries right now. The offense is a shadow of what they were last year and simply not producing. The rotation got off to an incredibly slow start (Price was the only respectable pitcher in there) but now with the rotation seemingly turning things around it remains to be seen how bad the bullpen ends up costing us some games. However with basically the same offense from last year it's astonishing how low we have sunk....... To go from 1st in the entire league to 22nd..... Something is not right and they absolutely showed no signs of turning that around yesterday. We need to have a lead in the 9th inning first of all, before we worry about replacing our closer.

[Bellhorn04]

Hanley Ramirez is a free agent. Sure his 65 OPS+ doesn’t look enticing, but it’s double Steve Pearce’s...

 

That would be just throwing darts.

[dgalehouse]

He’s already been demoted.

 

Teams are now allowed to call up a 26th player for double headers. (New rule this year.) That was why he got the call in the first place...

 

Okay . I know about calling up an extra guy for the doubleheader . But I thought Lakins would go back down .

[notin]

Okay . I know about calling up an extra guy for the doubleheader . But I thought Lakins would go back down .

 

 

Maybe they simply want Hernandez to continue to develop as a starter?

[notin]

That would be just throwing darts.

 

 

And a bit of sarcasm. The Sox won’t bring back Hanley unless he is holding DD’s children for ransom.

 

And even then probably only on a minor league deal...

[TylerD]

And a bit of sarcasm. The Sox won’t bring back Hanley unless he is holding DD’s children for ransom.

 

And even then probably only on a minor league deal...

 

Chances of Ortiz coming back good?

[notin]

Chances of Ortiz coming back good?

 

 

The thought makes me smile...

[moonslav59]

hanley ramirez is a free agent. Sure his 65 ops+ doesn’t look enticing, but it’s double steve pearce’s...

 

lol

[Station 13]

He’s already been demoted.

 

Teams are now allowed to call up a 26th player for double headers. (New rule this year.) That was why he got the call in the first place...

 

That rule has been there for at least 4 years now. Next year it is permanent

[kenmeister]

The way the game is today , the bullpen comes into play just about every day . If it is substandard, it will be exposed . Say what you will , the pen is still the number one concern about this team .

 

My number one concern is the offense.

[dgalehouse]

Pretty sure the offense is better than they have shown so far and will certainly improve . I can't say that about the bullpen.

[a700hitter]

Colton Brewer should never be in the game in the 7t, 8th, or 9th inning unless we are up or trailing by 6 or more runs. He's awful. I don't know how he made the team. He didn't look impressive at Spring Training. I would have brought Mejia north with the team.

[dgalehouse]

Would also help if the rotation could give us more than 4 or 5 innings. Yet again Sale didn't go past 5 yesterday, the bullpen is just flat out tired right now. It remains to be seen if it will haunt us or not by not replacing Kimbrel...... That honestly is the least of my worries right now. The offense is a shadow of what they were last year and simply not producing. The rotation got off to an incredibly slow start (Price was the only respectable pitcher in there) but now with the rotation seemingly turning things around it remains to be seen how bad the bullpen ends up costing us some games. However with basically the same offense from last year it's astonishing how low we have sunk....... To go from 1st in the entire league to 22nd..... Something is not right and they absolutely showed no signs of turning that around yesterday. We need to have a lead in the 9th inning first of all, before we worry about replacing our closer.

 

Starters just don't go deep in games very often these days . That's how it is . And the bullpen is more than just the ninth inning. If you still had Kimbrel , or a reasonable alternative , you would still have Barnes and Brasier as well . The bullpen becomes deeper and better in every inning .

[notin]

I

Starters just don't go deep in games very often these days . That's how it is . And the bullpen is more than just the ninth inning. If you still had Kimbrel , or a reasonable alternative , you would still have Barnes and Brasier as well . The bullpen becomes deeper and better in every inning .

 

 

Even if the Sox avoided all the available closers - which they did - that doesn’t mean you have to avoid every major league relief pitcher in the market. There were plenty of good non-closer’s available. And some still are...

[moonslav59]

Many of the RP'ers discussed as possible signees have sucked so far this year.