The Pen

[Kimmi]

The real miracle in 2013 was the starting rotation. In 2012 the starters put up the worst collective ERA in franchise history. And the only addition was Dempster.

 

Two words. Bobby Valentine

[Kimmi]

Could desperate Dave have a trade target in mind for the pen? Because he does not seem interested in signing any free agents.

 

I still do not believe that Dombrowski will go into the season with the BP as currently constructed. He has something working, though I do not know what that something is.

[cp176]

Lots of interesting rumors now being floated. I think that one of our catchers probably not named Vazquez would be gone already if the right had come along. Doesn't look as thought the intention is to go into the season with three.

talk of extensions - Bogaerts, Betts, Benintendi, Porcello, and Sale - all names being mentioned by media.

 

good news on the Chris Sale front with respect to the shoulder.

[S5Dewey]

Well, when the Red Sox won, it’s luck. When the Yankees win, it’s dominance.

 

And when the Yankees don’t win, it’s bad umpiring...

 

That post should be a tag line.

[cp176]

That post should be a tag line.

 

Also looks to me like in the eyes of the residing Yankee fan, all Yankees are totally free of any injury issues now and for the foreseeable future and that the future of the Sox hinges around the nearly decrepit arms of the majority of our pitchers.

[OH FOY]

Well Dombrowski is doing it right at the Catchers position goes, he just not giving one away. Spring Training injuries, poor performance, for the Back-up, could land you back a decent player. If its Leon, team is getting a excellent Back-up, and Spot Starter, as he did the blunt of Catching, during last years Dog Days, where its tough for any Catcher. Sox didn't skip a beat, and without Sale much of the time. Don't go by his hitting, probably exhausted from Catching From July 2, to Aug. 31st. 8 weeks exactly. 32-8 record, not bad. Unheralded performance last year. Edited January 20, 2019 by OH FOY!

[Bellhorn04]

Two words. Bobby Valentine

 

I don't see how he could have had that much of a negative impact on the pitching.

[Bellhorn04]

Some things just can't be explained-the horrible pitching in 2012 seemed to be a carryover from September, 2011.

 

Jon Lester pitched badly from September, 2011 to somewhere in the middle of the 2013 season, and then he reverted to his former excellence.

 

Inexplicable. But such is baseball.

[S5Dewey]

I don't see how he could have had that much of a negative impact on the pitching.

 

The whole Bobby Valentine thing does give credence to the thought that a player's emotional state has a lot to do with his production. Choke, clutch, happiness, unhappiness, etc..

[moonslav59]

Personally, I loved the signings from that off season. My types of signings.

 

Also, I think the freaky years are 2014 and 2015, not 2013. 2017 was similarly freaky.

 

I loved the Napoli signing even before they restructured it after finding the health concern.

 

I liked Vic but hated 3 years, and I didn't think we'd win in 2013, so I thought his best years would be before we got seriously competitive.

 

I disliked the Drew and Demster signings, at the time, but not nearly as much as other signings in other years (CCrawford, Pablo, Masterson).

 

[Elktonnick]

I still do not believe that Dombrowski will go into the season with the BP as currently constructed. He has something working, though I do not know what that something is.

 

I happen to agree with you. Although I think it is fair to say that most relievers are a highly unpredictable lot. Many seem go from good to bad back to good again. Joe Kelly is a fine example. Most fans moaned when Kelly would come in the second half of the season only to find his stride during the playoffs. Quite frankly who knows which Joe Kelly will show up this spring. That being said given the Sox position vis a vis the luxury tax I think DD is being very prudent not the spend big to fill the few holes he has in the pen.

[Kimmi]

I don't see how he could have had that much of a negative impact on the pitching.

 

I think he had that much of a negative impact on the whole team. I actually think the team was against him before they even met him, because it was suggested that he was hired to 'whip the team into shape'. He had a huge strike against him before he even started, which was probably very unfair to him, but I don't believe he helped his cause any when he actually started the job.

 

If memory serves me right, he left Lester in a game to fry. Pure speculation, but I had the impression that Valentine was punishing Lester for pitching so poorly, so to speak, and let it be known to Lester that that was what he was doing. Francona, OTOH, might have left Lester in the game, but he would have approached it from the angle that he needed Lester to take one for the team and save the pen arms. IMO, there was a big difference in the way the managers communicated things.

[Kimmi]

The whole Bobby Valentine thing does give credence to the thought that a player's emotional state has a lot to do with his production. Choke, clutch, happiness, unhappiness, etc..

 

I 100% believe that a player's emotional state affects his production, have stated this many times, but for some reason, you fail to acknowledge this.

 

That said, clutch and choke are something different.

[a700hitter]

Bobby Valentine is to be blamed for 2012, and almost never will I blame a game, much less an entire season on a manager. The blame is due to his off field management, not his in game tactics.

 

Also, Ben is awesome.

As a barista.

[Kimmi]

I loved the Napoli signing even before they restructured it after finding the health concern.

 

I liked Vic but hated 3 years, and I didn't think we'd win in 2013, so I thought his best years would be before we got seriously competitive.

 

I disliked the Drew and Demster signings, at the time, but not nearly as much as other signings in other years (CCrawford, Pablo, Masterson).

 

 

I am a fan of the shorter term signings of 2nd tier types of players over signing the superstar types to mega contracts. If the signing fails, it is usually only one or two years and less money per year that the team needs to eat.

[Kimmi]

I happen to agree with you. Although I think it is fair to say that most relievers are a highly unpredictable lot. Many seem go from good to bad back to good again. Joe Kelly is a fine example. Most fans moaned when Kelly would come in the second half of the season only to find his stride during the playoffs. Quite frankly who knows which Joe Kelly will show up this spring. That being said given the Sox position vis a vis the luxury tax I think DD is being very prudent not the spend big to fill the few holes he has in the pen.

 

I agree. And given the volatile nature of most relievers, I don't think it's a smart idea to sign them to huge contracts.

 

I'd be okay entering the season with the pen that we have, but I still believe Dombrowski is going to add to it.

[S5Dewey]

I 100% believe that a player's emotional state affects his production, have stated this many times, but for some reason, you fail to acknowledge this.

 

That said, clutch and choke are something different.

 

Clutch and choke are as much a part of a person's emotions as are happiness and unhappiness. I fail to see how anyone can distinguish between them when all of them are emotion-driven.

[dgalehouse]

I think he had that much of a negative impact on the whole team. I actually think the team was against him before they even met him, because it was suggested that he was hired to 'whip the team into shape'. He had a huge strike against him before he even started, which was probably very unfair to him, but I don't believe he helped his cause any when he actually started the job.

 

If memory serves me right, he left Lester in a game to fry. Pure speculation, but I had the impression that Valentine was punishing Lester for pitching so poorly, so to speak, and let it be known to Lester that that was what he was doing. Francona, OTOH, might have left Lester in the game, but he would have approached it from the angle that he needed Lester to take one for the team and save the pen arms. IMO, there was a big difference in the way the managers communicated things.

 

Too bad that Tito didn't communicate to Lester and his pals that it is not okay to leave the dugout for your own little party in the clubhouse . Especially so during a pennant race .

[Kimmi]

Clutch and choke are as much a part of a person's emotions as are happiness and unhappiness. I fail to see how anyone can distinguish between them when all of them are emotion-driven.

 

Well I'm not going to drudge up the whole clutch argument again, so I'll leave it at that.

[Kimmi]

Too bad that Tito didn't communicate to Lester and his pals that it is not okay to leave the dugout for your own little party in the clubhouse . Especially so during a pennant race .

 

I am guessing that the whole chicken and beer fiasco has been blown way out of proportion.

[dgalehouse]

I am guessing that the whole chicken and beer fiasco has been blown way out of proportion.

 

The Sox blew the pennant . Tito blew his job . Proportion notwithstanding .

[sk7326]

I am guessing that the whole chicken and beer fiasco has been blown way out of proportion.

 

And the 2004 team did hard liquor shots before games. If they won, it would have been seen as quaint.

[notin]

Too bad that Tito didn't communicate to Lester and his pals that it is not okay to leave the dugout for your own little party in the clubhouse . Especially so during a pennant race .

 

 

Why?

 

In the words of AJ Pierzynski on that whole thing. “I’ve been on 3 different teams and seen that in 3 different clubhouses.” Why do some fans think the Red Sox have to be held up to the ideals of their high school coach as opposed to normal MLB behavior?

[dgalehouse]

And the 2004 team did hard liquor shots before games. If they won, it would have been seen as quaint.

 

" If they won . " Therein lies the difference . The little word " if " means so much in life .

[sk7326]

" If they won . " Therein lies the difference . The little word " if " means so much in life .

 

It shows that the behavior is probably less linked to the collapse than a team running out of pitchers

[dgalehouse]

Why?

 

In the words of AJ Pierzynski on that whole thing. “I’ve been on 3 different teams and seen that in 3 different clubhouses.” Why do some fans think the Red Sox have to be held up to the ideals of their high school coach as opposed to normal MLB behavior?

 

Oh. Okay . If AJ Pierzynski says so , I can't possibly disagree . It is fine to downplay the whole thing . But I still say ; the Sox blew the pennant and Tito blew his job.

[dgalehouse]

It shows that the behavior is probably less linked to the collapse than a team running out of pitchers

 

I don't think it shows that at all . Perhaps the collapse was linked to the out of shape performance of the individuals involved .

[a700hitter]

I am guessing that the whole chicken and beer fiasco has been blown way out of proportion.

What was not out of proportion was the epic collapse of that team in 2011. The pitching going into September was hanging by a thread and Theo failed to get any reinforcements. Tito also did nothing to prevent the team's precipitous nose dive. He needed to flip over a table in the clubhouse or something, but he remained Francoma -- which was a great demeanor for teams that are performing well, but not when a losing group mentality is starting to take hold. They didn't need to do a lot, but they did nothing. Theo got caught with his pants down so much that he was looking to make a trade for Capuano on the last weekend. Edited January 20, 2019 by a700hitter

[a700hitter]

It shows that the behavior is probably less linked to the collapse than a team running out of pitchers

Lackey was toast. The most useful thing he did that September was to order the Chicken.

[S5Dewey]

Well I'm not going to drudge up the whole clutch argument again, so I'll leave it at that.

 

That sounds fair.