The Pen

[notin]

When the payroll's pushing 250 mill and the farm is depleted, it does tie your hands a wee bit.

 

Besides, he didn't need to do much more for the 2018 team than what he did.

 

But somehow it doesn’t tie them enough to keep you from spending $6.5mill on the backup first baseman...

[Bellhorn04]

But somehow it doesn’t tie them enough to keep you from spending $6.5mill on the backup first baseman...

 

Right. That's the one thing that's puzzling in light of the bullpen situation.

[notin]

Right. That's the one thing that's puzzling in light of the bullpen situation.

 

 

For what DD is paying Pearce and Sandy Leon, he could have afforded Ottavino. Throw in Thornburg (who I assumed had health verified before signing, but then Carson Smith clearly didn’t, so who knows?), and the Sox could have had Robertson.

 

I guess his plan is to have the last bullpen with a seat available when the music stops?

[Kimmi]

Right. That's the one thing that's puzzling in light of the bullpen situation.

 

I don't think that the $6.5 mil is an issue. It's the # of years that has kept Dombrowski from signing a reliever.

[Northern Star]

the importance of the pen would be diminished if teams could get enough starters to average 6IP/start.

[fxkatt]

So, the Yanks bull pen has:

 

Chapman, Betances, Ottavino, Britton, Kahnle, Green, Holder. Am I missing someone?

 

I think any one of these guys could at least vie for our 7th and 8th hitting hold guys. And the first three would suffice for the stopper we don't have. ??? Anyway, to say the Yankees have an advantage, in this important category, would be an understatement, don't you think. Talk about overkill.

[harmony]

The Red Sox may have the last laugh (again) but a Yankee fan writes ...

 

Re: Official 2018-19 Offseason / Hot Stove Thread

I can't help it, I have to post this again cause every time I look at it, it gives me chills.

 

I mean really ... this is ridiculous!

 

Aroldis Chapman

Delin Betances

Zach Britton

Adam Ottavino

Chad Green

Domingo German

Stephen Tarpley

Kahnle or Holder (one kept, one traded)

 

Our fifth reliever would be the Red Sox closer tomorrow, and I love the young guns (German and Tarpley) too. By seasons end we'll probably be saying our sixth and seventh relievers can close for the Red Sox too.

 

I just hope the Phillies break the bank for Kimbrel and leave the Red Sox holding the bag.

http://www.nyyfansforum.com/showthread.php/138716-Official-2018-19-Offseason-Hot-Stove-Thread/page917

[notin]

The Red Sox may have the last laugh (again) but a Yankee fan writes ...

 

 

http://www.nyyfansforum.com/showthread.php/138716-Official-2018-19-Offseason-Hot-Stove-Thread/page917

 

The Yankee fans are probably saying all that now, but that doesn't make any of it true.

 

In the last 3 years, Ottavino has been worth 2.5 fWAR, Matt Barnes has been worth 2.7 fWAR in that same timeframe...

[moonslav59]

Reminds me of last year's unbeatable, best-ever Yankee pen.

 

Bring it on!

[harmony]

Reminds me of last year's unbeatable, best-ever Yankee pen.

Yup.

[fxkatt]

Reminds me of last year's unbeatable, best-ever Yankee pen.

 

Bring it on!

 

As I recall it, it was the lineup that was the best ever--and that didn't materialize. But Betances in the bullpen did materialize, and the pen did pretty much pan out as expected.

[moonslav59]

As I recall it, it was the lineup that was the best ever--and that didn't materialize. But Betances in the bullpen did materialize, and the pen did pretty much pan out as expected.

 

Yes, except the unbearable part.

 

Remind me, what was the team that had their number?

[jacksonianmarch]

Reminds me of last year's unbeatable, best-ever Yankee pen.

 

Bring it on!

 

And we had a manager who wouldn't go to them. Go figure

[dgalehouse]

Reminds me of last year's unbeatable, best-ever Yankee pen.

 

Bring it on!

 

I think we should be a little more pragmatic. The Yankees had a terrific bullpen last year , yet they could not beat us . However, they did win 100 games despite having a ton of problems with their rotation. No one should underestimate the importance of a bullpen in today's game . As it stands , their pen is better than ours . And it is not close. I don't see how any Sox fan cannot be concerned.

[redsoxrules]

Reminds me of last year's unbeatable, best-ever Yankee pen.

 

Bring it on!

 

Yeah and they were suppose to have the best offense. Stanton and judge were going to combined for 100 HR and 250 RBIs.

[fxkatt]

I think we should be a little more pragmatic. The Yankees had a terrific bullpen last year , yet they could not beat us . However, they did win 100 games despite having a ton of problems with their rotation. No one should underestimate the importance of a bullpen in today's game . As it stands , their pen is better than ours . And it is not close. I don't see how any Sox fan cannot be concerned.

 

That's my take. And I would add that, given our starters often failed to get past the 5th inning and rarely past the 6th, relief may be as critical for us as for any team in the league--including Tampa Bay. (we averaged 5.4 innings per starter outing. NY was 5.3)

Edited January 18, 2019 by fxkatt

[jacksonianmarch]

I think we should be a little more pragmatic. The Yankees had a terrific bullpen last year , yet they could not beat us . However, they did win 100 games despite having a ton of problems with their rotation. No one should underestimate the importance of a bullpen in today's game . As it stands , their pen is better than ours . And it is not close. I don't see how any Sox fan cannot be concerned.

 

Our bullpen is theoretically better than it was last year. Last year we only got two months of Britton, who was fresh off an Achilles tear. We will get a healthier Britton and have him for the full year. The question is whether Ottavino can perform to KRob's level. Pitching in Colorado is very difficult. Pitching in NY is difficult for other reasons. I think we need to look at the pen guys we have assembled. By keeping Britton and swapping out Ottavino for Robertson, we have decided to go with guys who are VERY hard to lift out of the ballpark. One of the bugaboos about KRob, rightly or wrongly, was his HR rate jumping to 0.9 per 9IP. Betances jumped as well, but he wasn't a FA. The only other guy at or above that level is Green, right around 1 per 9IP. For a back end reliever, the homerun is a killer. We have assembled 5 guys in the pen lineup who don't give up HR's. Holder (0.55), Chapman (0.35), Betances (0.61 for career), Britton (0.66), and Ottavino (0.58). All of them historically strike out guys are big rates. Aside from Holder, the only major bugaboo with them is the penchant for the walk. The Yanks are betting that this dominant pen will be harder to string hits together against because it is gonna be VERY hard for teams to drive the ball.

 

Now, we added Paxton to the rotation and should see JMont return by mid season. We also are a year deeper into the progress of the minor leaguers with guys like King and Loaisiga ready to step in and guys with big stuff in Cessa and German possibly ready to take the next step. All we need is a manager willing to use this. Girardi was willing. He would go to the pen in the 3rd inning if he needed to. Now I am not saying Boone needs to do that in April, but to fend of the sox, he is gonna need to be ready to win games in the middle innings by pulling his starters and going with strength. By the playoffs, he needs to be ready as early as the first inning.

[notin]

Yeah and they were suppose to have the best offense. Stanton and judge were going to combined for 100 HR and 250 RBIs.

 

 

There was definitely talk that Judge, Stanton and Sanchez could be the most productive home run hitting trio of all time, an honor currently held by three players someone else can go look up.

 

 

The three combined for 83 home runs, which I think is a bit short of the record. But it was 8 more than Betts and Martinez combined for, so there is that...

[jacksonianmarch]

There was definitely talk that Judge, Stanton and Sanchez could be the most productive home run hitting trio of all time, an honor currently held by three players someone else can go look up.

 

 

The three combined for 83 home runs, which I think is a bit short of the record. But it was 8 more than Betts and Martinez combined for, so there is that...

 

Sanchez was hurt all year and Judge lost 6+ weeks to an errant pitch. They'll make a run at it this year

[moonslav59]

Our bullpen is theoretically better than it was last year. Last year we only got two months of Britton, who was fresh off an Achilles tear. We will get a healthier Britton and have him for the full year. The question is whether Ottavino can perform to KRob's level. Pitching in Colorado is very difficult. Pitching in NY is difficult for other reasons. I think we need to look at the pen guys we have assembled. By keeping Britton and swapping out Ottavino for Robertson, we have decided to go with guys who are VERY hard to lift out of the ballpark. One of the bugaboos about KRob, rightly or wrongly, was his HR rate jumping to 0.9 per 9IP. Betances jumped as well, but he wasn't a FA. The only other guy at or above that level is Green, right around 1 per 9IP. For a back end reliever, the homerun is a killer. We have assembled 5 guys in the pen lineup who don't give up HR's. Holder (0.55), Chapman (0.35), Betances (0.61 for career), Britton (0.66), and Ottavino (0.58). All of them historically strike out guys are big rates. Aside from Holder, the only major bugaboo with them is the penchant for the walk. The Yanks are betting that this dominant pen will be harder to string hits together against because it is gonna be VERY hard for teams to drive the ball.

 

Now, we added Paxton to the rotation and should see JMont return by mid season. We also are a year deeper into the progress of the minor leaguers with guys like King and Loaisiga ready to step in and guys with big stuff in Cessa and German possibly ready to take the next step. All we need is a manager willing to use this. Girardi was willing. He would go to the pen in the 3rd inning if he needed to. Now I am not saying Boone needs to do that in April, but to fend of the sox, he is gonna need to be ready to win games in the middle innings by pulling his starters and going with strength. By the playoffs, he needs to be ready as early as the first inning.

 

Your pen does look better this year, but before the year started you were (rightfully) ranting about Kahnle, Warren, Greene, Holder and more.

[moonslav59]

Sanchez was hurt all year and Judge lost 6+ weeks to an errant pitch. They'll make a run at it this year

 

Did Sanchez learn how to catch and relate to the staff while out hurt last year?

 

He should be your DH, Stanton in the OF, and you should have not brought Gardner back.

[jacksonianmarch]

Did Sanchez learn how to catch and relate to the staff while out hurt last year?

 

He should be your DH, Stanton in the OF, and you should have not brought Gardner back.

 

Sanchez and his relationship with the staff isn't as big of an issue as his inability to block balls in the dirt. If he can stay healthy, his PB's will improve (they will never be good) and his power will return. He is too young and too good to stay as bad as he was last year

[jacksonianmarch]

Your pen does look better this year, but before the year started you were (rightfully) ranting about Kahnle, Warren, Greene, Holder and more.

 

And aside from Kahnle, who went down with an arm injury, the above guys were awesome. We dealt Warren and the guy was having a remarkable season for us

[moonslav59]

Sanchez was hurt all year and Judge lost 6+ weeks to an errant pitch. They'll make a run at it this year

 

We lost several weeks of Betts, Bogey, Devers and Vaz, not to mention Sale, ERod, Price and others-plus we'll have Eovaldi & Pearce. We'll make a run this year, too.

 

Games under 155

5 JD

7 Beni

11 JBJ

19 Bogey

19 Betts

28 Nunez

31 Moreland

34 Devers

75 Vazquez

 

GS'd under 32

2 Price

5 Sale

9 ERod

21 Eovaldi

105 Pearce

 

[moonslav59]

And aside from Kahnle, who went down with an arm injury, the above guys were awesome. We dealt Warren and the guy was having a remarkable season for us

 

Yes, that's why I said "rightfully.

 

My point is, the great pen didn't get you a ring, and we seemed to hit your pen twice as well as the next best team.

 

OPS Against vs the Sox

1.222 Holder (Playoffs vs BOS WHIP: 1.50)

.906 Chapman (PO v BOS 0.500)

.835 Kahnle

.720 Betances (Playoffs vs BOS WHIP 1.200)

.689 Green (PO v BOS WHIP 1.909)

.417 Robertson (0.375)

.410 Britton (1.000)

.333 Warren

[jacksonianmarch]

Moon, cmon now. We were snakebit by injury and Judge's injury all but sealed the division

 

We had a lost year from Sanchez presumably due to injury.

Bird was gone from the getgo and was never right.

We lost Montgomery for the year.

Kahnle was hurt for practically the whole season.

We lost 6 weeks of Judge.

Ellsbury missed the season (no big loss).

Frasier lost almost the whole year which is why we had Shane Robinson replacing Aaron Judge.

We lost a few weeks of Torres due to a hip injury.

We lost Didi for a few weeks with a heel and wrist.

Tanaka pulled both hammies and missed over a month.

We lost Hicks for 2 weeks with a rib strain

CC lost 2 weeks due to a hip issue

German came in and then hurt his arm

Loaisiga came in and then hurt his arm

 

You cannot count Pearce and Eovaldi as missing time since they were traded. I could do the same for Lynn, Britton and Happ.

 

Let's use your weird mark for health

Games under 155

Andujar 6

Gardner 15

Hicks 18

Gregorius- 21

Torres- 32

Judge- 43

Sanchez- 66

Bird- 73

 

GS'd under 32

Sabathia- 3

Tanaka- 5

Montgomery- 26

 

That doesn't take into account Gray losing his stones and being removed from the rotation. We had Gray going off the rails at the same time as Tanaka on the DL and Montgomery having TJS. Tell me when you had three holes in your rotation at one time? Heck, we had it for a whole month!

 

We had one guy hit 30 starts last year and that was Severino.

CC saw 29 starts.

Tanaka started 27 games

Gray started 23

German started 14

Happ started 11

Lynn started 11

Montgomery started 6

Cessa started 5

Loaisiga started 4

Adams started 1

Holder started 1

 

We had 12 starters last year. 25 starts were by either rookies or guys not established as real big league pitchers. We had to deal for two starters just to fill the rotation. Our pitching was an absolute mess last year. This year, we have durable JA Happ. We added Paxton, but he doesn't come with the rep of an iron man, so he may be some status quo. Our #5 had a stent placed in his heart and he is morbidly obese, so it isn't like he is a good bet for 30. But we have big league depth coming mid season with Montgomery. The kids who debuted last year are now a year older with that experience and all to this point are healthy. I anticipate maybe not a healthy 5 man, but a well built stable of replacements capable of getting us through the rough patches. And I highly doubt we lose 3 starters at the same time again

[jacksonianmarch]

Yes, that's why I said "rightfully.

 

My point is, the great pen didn't get you a ring, and we seemed to hit your pen twice as well as the next best team.

 

OPS Against vs the Sox

1.222 Holder (Playoffs vs BOS WHIP: 1.50)

.906 Chapman (PO v BOS 0.500)

.835 Kahnle

.720 Betances (Playoffs vs BOS WHIP 1.200)

.689 Green (PO v BOS WHIP 1.909)

.417 Robertson (0.375)

.410 Britton (1.000)

.333 Warren

 

You have to use your great pen to get yourself a ring. Games 3 and 4, we were slow to pull the starter and by the time we did, the animals were out of the barn

[moonslav59]

Jacko, come on now .(see bolded updated list below)

 

Let's use your weird mark for health

Games under 155

Andujar 6

Gardner 15

Hicks 18

Gregorius- 21

Torres- 32

Judge- 43

Sanchez- 66

Bird- 73

 

GS'd under 32

Sabathia- 3

Tanaka- 5

Montgomery- 26

 

Okay, well I left off a lot of players, some of them damn good- like Pedey, Thornburg, Smith, Pom, Wright...

 

Games under 155

5 JD

7 Beni

11 JBJ

19 Bogey

19 Betts

28 Nunez

31 Moreland

34 Devers

75 Vazquez

105 Pearce

154 Pedey

 

GS'd under 32

2 Price

5 Sale

9 ERod

21 Eovaldi

21 Pomeranz (one of our best '17 starters)

28 Wright (one of our best '16 starters)

 

40+ IP Thornburg

50+ IP C Smith

25+ IP Brasier (was not called up until late)

20+ IP Workman

 

I'm not trying to minimize the Yankee key injuries, but I think you are minimizing the extent of key players on the Sox missing big time, significant time or a moderate amount of time.

[moonslav59]

You have to use your great pen to get yourself a ring. Games 3 and 4, we were slow to pull the starter and by the time we did, the animals were out of the barn

 

Probably true, but we held our own vs your vaunted pen.

[harmony]

Cody Allen may be off the board as well:

 

 

Edited January 18, 2019 by harmony