A Realistic View at 2019: Part I

[mvp 78]

Roberto Alomar has over twice as many plate appearances batting second than he does leading off. He even has more plate appearances batting third than he does leading off.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits.aspx?playerid=860&position=2B&season=0

 

Not according to Fangraphs.

[mvp 78]

Trout has more plate appearances batting second than anywhere else. And over three times as many batting second as he does leading off.

 

555 games hitting 2nd, 547 games hitting elsewhere. Trout has only spent about half his career hitting there. Where's the lie?

[harmony]

Trout has only spent about half his career hitting there.

 

Alomar had more games hitting leadoff than 2nd.

Rod Carew hit second in roughly half of his MLB games:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=carewro01&year=Career&t=b

 

Ozzie Smith hit second in more than half of his MLB games:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=smithoz01&year=Career&t=b

 

Robin Yount hit second more often than any other slot in the batting order:

 

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.fcgi?id=yountro01&year=Career&t=b

[notin]

https://www.fangraphs.com/statsplits.aspx?playerid=860&position=2B&season=0

 

Not according to Fangraphs.

 

 

You might want to reset your parameters there.

 

The splits on that page only appear to cover about 1200 at bats and Alomar had over 3000 hits

[Kimmi]

I'm sending up the VA signal right now!

 

Please do.

 

She needs to come back!

[Kimmi]

Lost once ? No matter what you think of the geeks , the manager should be calling the shots . I have doubts that that is the case here right now .

 

Cora is calling the in game shots, I can almost guarantee that.

 

And he is a big fan of analytics. That's why he is the man.

[Kimmi]

I can think of great leadoff hitters, but it's hard to remember great #2 hitters.

 

Well that's because managers have traditionally been putting the wrong guys in the #2 hole. The trend is changing. You will soon be able to recall great #2 hitters, just as you can recall great clean up hitters.

[Kimmi]

But is there a certain “prestige” with batting leadoff that would give a player a fit if he suddenly found himself batting second?

 

I think there is an added pressure or expectation to batting leadoff that would give some players a fit if they found themselves batting first.

[Bellhorn04]

I think there is an added pressure or expectation to batting leadoff that would give some players a fit if they found themselves batting first.

 

That happened with two Red Sox players one season in the Francona years...numbers-wise, at least.

[moonslav59]

Cora is calling the in game shots, I can almost guarantee that.

 

And he is a big fan of analytics. That's why he is the man.

 

Exactly. He's seeking new analytics. Nobody is steering him to them.

[cp176]

So conjure me this one - I have had to listen for 2 years now why the number 3 spot in the lineup was arguably one of the worst places to put one of if not your best hitter. Hmmm - let's see - How long has it been now that Martinez has anchored that spot this year? Do the all things analytics folk think that JD likely told Cora that that is where he wanted to hit. Come on - For the record, I love seeing him in that spot. Maybe Cora represents more of a good blend of someone who isn't afraid to use all things analytical but at the same has some common sense.

 

Ok then - no comment to me means that the yap I have listened to is just that - ********. I'm someone who truly believes that you should use anything available to help your team improve but a healthy dose of common sense also needs to be applied. A somewhat traditional way of looking at a lineup obviously still works.

[cp176]

Exactly. He's seeking new analytics. Nobody is steering him to them.

 

So once again I must ask - How in the hell could any huge fan of analytics think for one second that Martinez should be hitting third?

[moonslav59]

So once again I must ask - How in the hell could any huge fan of analytics think for one second that Martinez should be hitting third?

 

He shouldn't. He must think Moreland is better.

[moonslav59]

Ok then - no comment to me means that the yap I have listened to is just that - ********. I'm someone who truly believes that you should use anything available to help your team improve but a healthy dose of common sense also needs to be applied. A somewhat traditional way of looking at a lineup obviously still works.

 

Our offense is scoring as much or more than anybody else since the bad start, so I'm not sure why we should change the line-up.

[oldtimer]

Our offense is scoring as much or more than anybody else since the bad start, so I'm not sure why we should change the line-up.

 

If you read the in game thread its the flavor of the night. Last night Beni wasn't ever going to pan up being too fat. Betts was going through the motions. Tonight they were on base 6 times between them and it was Bogey and Devers not getting it done until the 10th. It's not wise to make judgments based on a single game or even several. It was 40 degs last night and perhaps some players reacted negatively. Just one possibility of many. Our lineup is solid with one or two exceptions.

 

Our pitching has shown up fairly well considering where we started from. Eovaldi is going to be back in June and Price sooner. Chavis is hitting well enough to be our 2nd baseman and there is no need to rush Pedey back. I'm looking forward to playing the Astros.

[notin]

Our offense is scoring as much or more than anybody else since the bad start, so I'm not sure why we should change the line-up.

 

 

Because the nerds in the analytics department didn’t play baseball and therefore cannot understand the game at the same level as someone who might have played maybe in high school (or maybe not) but at least watched a lot of games on TV and therefore can speak for all managers and MLB players.

 

Got it?

[moonslav59]

Because the nerds in the analytics department didn’t play baseball and therefore cannot understand the game at the same level as someone who might have played maybe in high school (or maybe not) but at least watched a lot of games on TV and therefore can speak for all managers and MLB players.

 

Got it?

 

LOL!

 

What gets me the most is this: Cora was a gutsy player in the traditional sense. I loved his style of play as a player. Old school, right?

 

Now, fast forward with him as a coach fully embracing the analytic nuances of the game. To me, he is proving it doesn't have to be one or the other, or one vs the other: you can have it both ways.

 

Click link...

 

 

The Best of Both Worlds

[cp176]

Because the nerds in the analytics department didn’t play baseball and therefore cannot understand the game at the same level as someone who might have played maybe in high school (or maybe not) but at least watched a lot of games on TV and therefore can speak for all managers and MLB players.

 

Got it?

 

Oh boy is this a shot at me notin? I've never called anyone a nerd nor have I ever even suggested that people who are in love with analytics did not participate in athletics. if the suggestion is that I never played or only have gained my knowledge from watching the game i could hit you with the old - You think because i never played that i cannot possibly know anything about the game? once again i did play although I was no standout but I would be willing to put my overall athletic abilities up against anyone here just for kicks.

My comments are coming as a result of the condescending tone of the all things analyticals who claim that because they can find stats to support their opinion then they must be right. Obviously Cora gets it but boy it just rankle the analytics when he slips from the norm. i kind of like a manager who doesn't play it by the "new" book all of the time.

[cp176]

LOL!

 

What gets me the most is this: Cora was a gutsy player in the traditional sense. I loved his style of play as a player. Old school, right?

 

Now, fast forward with him as a coach fully embracing the analytic nuances of the game. To me, he is proving it doesn't have to be one or the other, or one vs the other: you can have it both ways.

 

Click link...

 

 

The Best of Both Worlds

 

 

i think that it is a wonderful thing that he embraces the best of what the game has to offer.

[cp176]

Our offense is scoring as much or more than anybody else since the bad start, so I'm not sure why we should change the line-up.

 

I absolutely agree with you but I also think that hitting Martinez third is the right thing to do.

[jad]

Oh boy is this a shot at me notin? I've never called anyone a nerd nor have I ever even suggested that people who are in love with analytics did not participate in athletics. if the suggestion is that I never played or only have gained my knowledge from watching the game i could hit you with the old - You think because i never played that i cannot possibly know anything about the game? once again i did play although I was no standout but I would be willing to put my overall athletic abilities up against anyone here just for kicks.

My comments are coming as a result of the condescending tone of the all things analyticals who claim that because they can find stats to support their opinion then they must be right. Obviously Cora gets it but boy it just rankle the analytics when he slips from the norm. i kind of like a manager who doesn't play it by the "new" book all of the time.

 

Nuanced and tortuous as this debate has grown to be, I believe you may (I think possibly) perhaps be missing an abstruse layer of irony in N's assertions.

[Bellhorn04]

Cora is calling the in game shots, I can almost guarantee that.

 

And he is a big fan of analytics. That's why he is the man.

 

I agree with you.

 

Now, it must be said that cp is right about the thing he keeps harping on, which is that Cora is fine with JDM hitting third in spite of analytics which show that third is for your fifth-best hitter.

[S5Dewey]

I absolutely agree with you but I also think that hitting Martinez third is the right thing to do.

 

After considerable pondering of the question of the batting order and weighing both sides of the issue I've decided that it's not worth pondering over.

 

After considerable analysis the "analytics folks" have determined that 1) the batting order doesn't make much difference, and 2) the best hitter should not bat third. However, baseball being such a random sport with so many variables I question how the "AF's" could determine what the #3 hitter would have done had he been in the #2 spot. All that can be proven is what the #2 hitter did in the #2 spot and the #3 hitter did in the #3 spot. Everything else is conjecture.

 

Therefore since the batting order doesn't make much difference and we can't know what the #3 hitter would have done in the #2 spot we can just as easily say that the traditional way of having the best hitter bat third may be the best way to construct an order.

 

It may be right and it may be wrong, but it can't be proven either way.

[moonslav59]

I'd like JD up 4th, but I have no issues with Cora's line-ups or anything else.

I still think he's the best ever!

[Slasher9]

Oh boy is this a shot at me notin? .

 

i think this was sent across the bow of another poster....

but you probably deserve it too!

[Slasher9]

I absolutely agree with you but I also think that hitting Martinez third is the right thing to do.

 

i love JDM 3rd.

[notin]

Oh boy is this a shot at me notin? I've never called anyone a nerd nor have I ever even suggested that people who are in love with analytics did not participate in athletics. if the suggestion is that I never played or only have gained my knowledge from watching the game i could hit you with the old - You think because i never played that i cannot possibly know anything about the game? once again i did play although I was no standout but I would be willing to put my overall athletic abilities up against anyone here just for kicks.

My comments are coming as a result of the condescending tone of the all things analyticals who claim that because they can find stats to support their opinion then they must be right. Obviously Cora gets it but boy it just rankle the analytics when he slips from the norm. i kind of like a manager who doesn't play it by the "new" book all of the time.

 

 

Oh cp.

 

What makes you think that was a shot at you? (It wasn’t.)

[kenmeister]

I'd like to see....

 

1. Beni

2. Betts

3. Bogey

4. JD

5. Devers

6. Moreland-Chavis

7. Chavis-Pearce

8. JBJ

9. Vaz-Leon

 

So this is going to be crazy, but given the way Devers is hitting this year (only 3 home runs, but .323 average):

 

1. Devers (OBP .397)

2. Chavis (OBP .406)

3. Betts (OBP .404)

4. Martinez (OBP .399)

5. Moreland

6. Bogaerts

7. Vazquez

8. Benitendi

9. Bradley Jr.

 

Sorry for burying Benitendi, but I like having the top 4 all get on base a ton.

[moonslav59]

So this is going to be crazy, but given the way Devers is hitting this year (only 3 home runs, but .323 average):

 

1. Devers (OBP .397)

2. Chavis (OBP .406)

3. Betts (OBP .404)

4. Martinez (OBP .399)

5. Moreland

6. Bogaerts

7. Vazquez

8. Benitendi

9. Bradley Jr.

 

Sorry for burying Benitendi, but I like having the top 4 all get on base a ton.

 

.358 is very good- too good to bat 8th.

[moonslav59]

Look at some of these sick OBPs over the last 2 & 4 weeks!

 

2 Weeks: JBJ is 9th at .333!

 

.560 Vaz (say what?)

.455 Moreland (getting back in the groove)

.434 Devers (waking up the echoes)

.412 Betts (getting used to the 2 spot)

.389 JD (steady steady)

.388 Chavis (electrifying)

.382 Bogey (nice)

.377 Beni (the fat slob)

.333 JBJ

.316 Leon

.269 Nunez

.192 Pearce

 

Last 4 weeks:

.477 Betts (never had that leading off)

.431 Vaz

.427 Devers

.406 Chavis

.379 JDM

.354 Beni

.352 Bogey

.325 Moreland

.323 Leon

.308 JBJ

.269 Nunez

.186 Pearce

 

OPS Season Splits

vs RHP

1.062 Betts

.987 Chavis

.959 Moreland

.908 Devers

.852 Beni

.785 JD M

.755 Bogey

.654 Vaz (about half his OPS vs lefties)

.499 JBJ

.410 Nunez

.280 Pearce

 

vs LHPs

1.530 JD

1.201 Vaz

1.146 Bogey

.973 Chavis

.710 Devers

.649 Beni (.360 OBP)

.564 Nunez

.536 Moreland

.420 Betts (What the...?)

.366 Pearce

.312 JBJ