And the off season begins (2018-19)

[dgalehouse]

Yes. We have the same concerns here. To paraphrase an old nursery rhyme, when Kimbrel is good he's very good and when he's bad he's horrid. Obviously I haven't stood up there with a bat in my hand trying to hit his pitches but watching the K-Zone it's apparent that he gets a lot of swings and misses on pitches outside of the strike zone. What I don't know is whether those pitches go where Kimbrel wants them to go, or if he just throws pitches in the vicinity of the plate and the break on them is so hard to recognize that they all appear to be strikes as they come in.

 

Were I an opposing hitter I'd at least be making him throw more strikes. I'd be taking more pitches once I get to a two-strike count. I'd pick up more K's but I'd also pick up more BB's.

 

I still keep asking myself if we got so spoiled by Koji that we expect our closer to be Koji #2.

 

IMO there is no clear-cut answer to the issue of signing Kimbrel. I agree that he *might* be on the downside but again, 52 wins is still 52 wins. Regardless of what their name is, if our closer had 10 fewer saves/wins we wouldn't have won the AL East.

 

Budgetary restrictions will probably make it difficult, if not impossible, to resign Kimbrel. Also , it is very possible that he is starting to decline in ability. However , he is a seven time all star , with a career ERA of 1.90 . Those kind don't come along every day. We need a quality replacement. Can't try to skimp too much here.

[moonslav59]

Cora is the one making the call. He fills out the lineup card.

 

It doesn't matter if Sale says "I want Sandy" or not. Cora still makes out the lineup. He can put Holt behind the plate if he wants to.

 

Why are you blaming the pitchers here?

 

Yes, Cora makes the call, but to think the pitcher's opinion is not a part of the equation is missing a key component of the decision.

 

I'm fine with Sale wanting, needing or demanding Leon catch him.

 

If it works, don't "fix it."

 

The real issue here is if we dump Leon for Swihart, it won't just be Sale complaining and doing worse when Swihart is behind the plate.

 

[cp176]

Yes, Cora makes the call, but to think the pitcher's opinion is not a part of the equation is missing a key component of the decision.

 

I'm fine with Sale wanting, needing or demanding Leon catch him.

 

If it works, don't "fix it."

 

The real issue here is if we dump Leon for Swihart, it won't just be Sale complaining and doing worse when Swihart is behind the plate.

 

 

I don't think that there is anything wrong with a pitcher making a request either which is what I think that Sale as well as others have probably done. It's when people start using words like demand without really knowing much about what took place that does bother me. Where has anyone seen or heard that Sale or any other pitcher on this team has demanded that they have a certain catcher? I understand that it wasn't you using demand but it really is how negative things tend to get rolling. Unless someone as the exact proof for suggesting this then it wrong to use the choice of wording. They can suggest away all they want to. it is Cora who makes the final call.

[notin]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with a pitcher making a request either which is what I think that Sale as well as others have probably done. It's when people start using words like demand without really knowing much about what took place that does bother me. Where has anyone seen or heard that Sale or any other pitcher on this team has demanded that they have a certain catcher? I understand that it wasn't you using demand but it really is how negative things tend to get rolling. Unless someone as the exact proof for suggesting this then it wrong to use the choice of wording. They can suggest away all they want to. it is Cora who makes the final call.

 

It’s possible some fans want to dump Leon and don’t like the notion he makes more sense to keep than Swihart...

[moonslav59]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with a pitcher making a request either which is what I think that Sale as well as others have probably done. It's when people start using words like demand without really knowing much about what took place that does bother me. Where has anyone seen or heard that Sale or any other pitcher on this team has demanded that they have a certain catcher? I understand that it wasn't you using demand but it really is how negative things tend to get rolling. Unless someone as the exact proof for suggesting this then it wrong to use the choice of wording. They can suggest away all they want to. it is Cora who makes the final call.

 

I agree, and when I mentioned the word "demand," it was in the context of what I would be okay with and not what I thought was going on.

 

In Sale's case, I'd be okay with him demanding that Swihart never catch him to start a game. I probably would not be okay with him saying he demands Leon over Vaz, unless he has a very good reason.

[moonslav59]

It’s possible some fans want to dump Leon and don’t like the notion he makes more sense to keep than Swihart...

 

The pitcher performance levels between Leon and Swihart and Vaz and Swihart are frighteningly significant in almost all cases involving our starters.

 

Those who want to dump Leon and make Swihart the back-up should be prepared to defend that choice by showing his offense projects to make up the difference.

 

The differentials between Leon and Vaz are less significant, but with Sale one could argue, it's worth keeping Leon just as Sale's personal caddy alone.

 

Career ERA for Sale with....

 

Leon 2.42 (319 IP)

 

Vaz 3.40 (53 IP)

 

Swihart (Zero IP with Blake)

 

 

Price did well with Vaz this post season, but here are the career numbers:

 

2.83 w Leon (194 IP)

4.32 w Vaz (263 IP)

5.73 w Swihart (11)

 

Porcello:

4.14 w Leon (483)

4.15 w Vaz (134)

4.59 w Swihart (118)

 

ERod

4.00 Leon (99)

4.08 Swihart (71)

4.24 Vaz (276)

 

Wright

3.35 Vaz (97)

4.06 Swihart (71)

5.59 Leon (56)

 

I guess one could argue Swihart would be okay with ERod and Wright and maybe Porcello as well, so if used correctly, he would not hurt the staff that much, but if you take away Leon from these trends, you should expect significant declines from Sale and Price, even if only Vaz catches them.

[Kimmi]

I'll confess that I looked at the total saves and didn't consider the total chances. My point remains though that 'Not having a lights-out closer isn't a big deal... until you don't have one."

 

I don't doubt that there are numerous closers out there who would pitch for less money and save fewer games. If saving money has a higher priority than winning the WS then by all means the Sox should sign anyone to do the job or fill it internally 'on the cheap'. I know there is debate as to whether it's worthwhile to pay the money for a known successful closer but it seems foolhardy to me for the World Series Champions to experiment with an unknown quantity as a closer.

 

Craig Kimbrel may not be the answer because of the salary limitations but I wouldn't dismiss the possibility of signing him without giving it a good try. 52 wins with Kimbrel's name on this is still 52 wins.

 

I don't believe that anyone is saying to bring in a less effective closer, or that having a great closer isn't important. IMO, a closer of Kimbrel's caliber can be had for a much less expensive deal. A closer doesn't have to be a well known superstar type player in order to be a great closer. Most closers are unknown commodities who come out of nowhere. It's Dombrowski's job to find that guy, similar to how he found Brasier.

 

I bet there are other closers out there who, if they had been on the team, would have been able to save 47 out of 52 games. Maybe even more.

[Kimmi]

Our starters need to grow up. It's not their call to decide who should catch them. That decision is up to Cora.

 

If I'm Vazquez, I tell Sale or whoever to GO f*** OFF. You want Leon to catch? f*** YOU. That's how I would feel. They're still bunch of prima donnas. Yeah, that's really being a good teammate.

 

Nope I don't JD in right field on the days I'm pitching. In ten years, it'll be in their contract.

 

I'm willing to be that none of our starters have ever gone to Cora and said that they will only pitch to a certain catcher. I can't imagine Sale would ever do such a thing.

 

That said, most pitchers will develop a certain level of comfort and confidence with a catcher where they just click better than they do with other catchers. There is nothing wrong with that.

[notin]

Budgetary restrictions will probably make it difficult, if not impossible, to resign Kimbrel. Also , it is very possible that he is starting to decline in ability. However , he is a seven time all star , with a career ERA of 1.90 . Those kind don't come along every day. We need a quality replacement. Can't try to skimp too much here.

 

This is what I have been saying, practically verbatim.

 

I think the Sox got the best of what Kimbrel had to offer, and now it is time to move on and hopefully get the best years of another closer...

[cp176]

It’s possible some fans want to dump Leon and don’t like the notion he makes more sense to keep than Swihart...

 

I think that that is quite possible. I'm just having one of those "let's watch what we say days" because no doubt that if someone here makes a statement like Sale or any Red Sox pitcher is demanding anything then the rumors will start and some moron is going to run with it. I'm sure he has preferences as they all do but I can't imagine him demanding anything.

[cp176]

I agree, and when I mentioned the word "demand," it was in the context of what I would be okay with and not what I thought was going on.

 

In Sale's case, I'd be okay with him demanding that Swihart never catch him to start a game. I probably would not be okay with him saying he demands Leon over Vaz, unless he has a very good reason.

 

 

I don't think that anyone would be pleased with any of these guys making any demands about anything. Number 1 - It would be so extremely out of character for any individual on this particular team to make a statement like that.

[notin]

I think that that is quite possible. I'm just having one of those "let's watch what we say days" because no doubt that if someone here makes a statement like Sale or any Red Sox pitcher is demanding anything then the rumors will start and some moron is going to run with it. I'm sure he has preferences as they all do but I can't imagine him demanding anything.

 

I’m in the opposite camp. I bet a lot of these guys are a lot more demanding than we realize, but no one cares because they want them to be likable. Bill Simmons has written a few articles on his personal dealings with athletes and it’s always come across as how selfish and self-absorbed he thinks they all are. But then, Simmons has never made any secret that he prefers to keep his perspective to that of a fan...

[oldtimer]

I don't believe that anyone is saying to bring in a less effective closer, or that having a great closer isn't important. IMO, a closer of Kimbrel's caliber can be had for a much less expensive deal. A closer doesn't have to be a well known superstar type player in order to be a great closer. Most closers are unknown commodities who come out of nowhere. It's Dombrowski's job to find that guy, similar to how he found Brasier.

 

I bet there are other closers out there who, if they had been on the team, would have been able to save 47 out of 52 games. Maybe even more.

 

Our fans appreciate what Kimbrel has done for us and he may well have a couple of more good years. It all comes down to how much he will be offered on the FA market in both $ and length of contract. DD and Cora are intelligent guys and I trust them to make the right decision for the Sox in Kimbrel's case. Finding another quality closer at reasonable money will not be that easy but they will get something acceptable done if need be.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimbrel has been awesome the last 3 years. Boston is not an easy place to play. He did well there. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don’t

[cp176]

I’m in the opposite camp. I bet a lot of these guys are a lot more demanding than we realize, but no one cares because they want them to be likable. Bill Simmons has written a few articles on his personal dealings with athletes and it’s always come across as how selfish and self-absorbed he thinks they all are. But then, Simmons has never made any secret that he prefers to keep his perspective to that of a fan...

 

Interesting perspective - you might be right. It very well might be that I saw what I wanted to see this year. A team made of very talented professionals willing to make individual sacrifices for the good of the team. I did not observe one situation that I thought resembled selfishness at all. Since no one really knows for sure, I'm very content to assume that my perspective is ok. Actually I'm really kind of surprised that anyone would think differently about this group.

[Larry Cook]

Kimbrel had a slightly more difficult year this year as the walk rate rose and his post season was subpar.

 

Felton is coming. Lakins is coming.

 

But what do we do now!

 

It would be nice to trade for the reds closer, who could be even better with us.

[moonslav59]

I don't think that anyone would be pleased with any of these guys making any demands about anything. Number 1 - It would be so extremely out of character for any individual on this particular team to make a statement like that.

 

You're right. "Demand" was not a term I should have used.

[cp176]

You're right. "Demand" was not a term I should have used.

 

Oh I don't think that you meant it in the strictest sense of the word. The idea that Sale might have made such a demand was not started by you. I only mentioned it because I really believe that this team this year represents something very rare. Going forward I might be proven wrong. I get it when someone wants to start a rumor or hold a position based on hearsay - the old where there is smoke there is fire - but with respect to Sale and any of his teammates where is the smoke? Maybe this is where some numbnut brings up Sale's cutting of the shirt incident. I like a good rumor and am not immune to gossip but there has to be something that at least makes me think that there might be something to the rumor before I believe it.

This statement isn't directed at you at all Moon -

[Kimmi]

I’m in the opposite camp. I bet a lot of these guys are a lot more demanding than we realize, but no one cares because they want them to be likable. Bill Simmons has written a few articles on his personal dealings with athletes and it’s always come across as how selfish and self-absorbed he thinks they all are. But then, Simmons has never made any secret that he prefers to keep his perspective to that of a fan...

 

Well, you might have a point. After all, Sale did cut up those jerseys, which, despite how anyone wants to rationalize it, was an extremely selfish and childish thing to do.

 

That said, the way that the pitchers were all approaching Cora in the offseason, letting him know that they were available to pitch in whatever capacity Cora needed, leads me to believe that there was not much, if any, selfishness going on with this team.

[Kimmi]

Our fans appreciate what Kimbrel has done for us and he may well have a couple of more good years. It all comes down to how much he will be offered on the FA market in both $ and length of contract. DD and Cora are intelligent guys and I trust them to make the right decision for the Sox in Kimbrel's case. Finding another quality closer at reasonable money will not be that easy but they will get something acceptable done if need be.

 

I agree that Kimbrel likely has a couple more good years in him. I would love to have him back on a 2 year deal. Seeing as how he is likely to get 4-5 years, I would have to pass.

 

It will be interesting to see what Dombrowski does in terms of a closer. I trust him to get us a quality one. I don't trust him to make a good deal in doing so.

[notin]

I agree that Kimbrel likely has a couple more good years in him. I would love to have him back on a 2 year deal. Seeing as how he is likely to get 4-5 years, I would have to pass.

 

It will be interesting to see what Dombrowski does in terms of a closer. I trust him to get us a quality one. I don't trust him to make a good deal in doing so.

 

Dombrowski has said he is prepsred to roll out Barnes or Brasier as the closer. But I expect this is to minimize the salivating from the agents of Cody Allen, Dave Robertson, and Zach Britton. These three probably top his list of most likely targets, although he could certainly also go the trade route again...

[Bellhorn04]

It will be interesting to see what Dombrowski does in terms of a closer. I trust him to get us a quality one. I don't trust him to make a good deal in doing so.

 

Something tells me that after a short grace period you're going back to saying mean things about Dave again.

[jacksonianmarch]

Dombrowski has a problem with bullpens before coming to Boston. The first thing he did was get the best reliever on the market. In the past three years, Kimbrel has been a top 3 or 4 reliever in baseball, maybe the best when you co sided aggregate. If he decides to do a committee improvement or get a setup man to close, he will be weakening what had been a strength. Not everyone can close. Not everyone can handle Boston. Kimbrel can. If DD is keen on propping open this window, then re-upping Kimbrel or getting a top 5 reliever is in his best interest. You also need to deal with the loss of Kelly. He had been erratic but was awesome in the POs. Losing both without adding would be suicide for a team that will be a back end of a pen away from another title run

[redsoxrules]

Dombrowski has said he is prepsred to roll out Barnes or Brasier as the closer. But I expect this is to minimize the salivating from the agents of Cody Allen, Dave Robertson, and Zach Britton. These three probably top his list of most likely targets, although he could certainly also go the trade route again...

 

No thanks on Cody Allen.

I wouldn't mind Robertson. I'm iffy Britton.

[notin]

Dombrowski has a problem with bullpens before coming to Boston. The first thing he did was get the best reliever on the market. In the past three years, Kimbrel has been a top 3 or 4 reliever in baseball, maybe the best when you co sided aggregate. If he decides to do a committee improvement or get a setup man to close, he will be weakening what had been a strength. Not everyone can close. Not everyone can handle Boston. Kimbrel can. If DD is keen on propping open this window, then re-upping Kimbrel or getting a top 5 reliever is in his best interest. You also need to deal with the loss of Kelly. He had been erratic but was awesome in the POs. Losing both without adding would be suicide for a team that will be a back end of a pen away from another title run

 

Everyne likes to say this, like it's a big deal and so difficult for an MLB-caliber pitcher to close in Boston. But is this really true? How many failed closers have the Sox had since, say, Chad Fox in 2003? How many before that? Other than Alfredo Aceves in 2012, who was pressed into the role, have we really seen a lot of closers fold under the Boston pressure? And how often have we seen that from a healthy and experienced closer?

[Kimmi]

Dombrowski has said he is prepsred to roll out Barnes or Brasier as the closer. But I expect this is to minimize the salivating from the agents of Cody Allen, Dave Robertson, and Zach Britton. These three probably top his list of most likely targets, although he could certainly also go the trade route again...

 

Yeah, I don't really believe that he will go with Barnes or Brasier, though I would have no problem with that.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hanrahan, Gagne, Melancon, Bailey Edited November 4, 2018 by jacksonianmarch

[Kimmi]

Something tells me that after a short grace period you're going back to saying mean things about Dave again.

 

Well, if Dave signs Kimbrel to a 5 year, $100 million deal, I'm most certainly going to criticize him for that.

 

He brought us a World Series. All moves leading up to that and the impending cliff are forgiven. Everything he has done has been worth it. I'm not saying that I now agree with all of his moves. I still think that we could have won a World Series without the 'at any cost' dealing, but that flag will fly forever, so IMO, the over-payments are worth it.

 

That does not give him a free pass from this point forward.

 

Dombrowski won me over with his moves during the 2018 season. If he continues with more of those types of moves, I'll be his biggest fan.

[jacksonianmarch]

Knowing what’s available on the FA market, who do the Sox go sign if they don’t sign Kimbrel?

[notin]

Knowing what’s available on the FA market, who do the Sox go sign if they don’t sign Kimbrel?

 

Allen, Britton, Familia,Robertson, Ramos, Miller, Wilson. Soria, or Herrera. Or they could trade . A recent MLBTR chat proposed a Jose Leclerc-Michael Chavis trade that the moderator felt was close...