Sox starting pitching thread

[Bellhorn04]

DD Scorecard:

Price - terrible terrible terrible signing. should have signed Cueto like Slasher9 said to

 

The jury is still out on both of these signings IMHO

[Kimmi]

What??? Sigh. Well, since I have little faith Pomeranz will be effective this year, I'm sure eventually the two will be swapped.

 

Also, I have a new avatar. I hope you all like it.

 

The nice thing is that we now have some options. We don't have to have Pom in the rotation, which is the importance and value of depth. Before we got Eovaldi, I posted that the Sox really needed to give Pom another start or two, despite how badly he's pitched. My opinion about that hasn't changed. We need to see what he can give, and luckily, we have the wiggle room to be able to do that.

 

And good job with the avatar.

[cp176]

DD Scorecard:

 

Price - terrible terrible terrible signing. should have signed Cueto like Slasher9 said to

Kimbrel - overpay. could have used some of those prospects in another deal.

Pom - horrible horrible horrible trade. a gold chip prospect for a Relief Pitcher that had only recently became a SP and he only has ever had 2 pitches. neither of which are ++. plus he was injured at the time of the trade and DD actually could have renegged on the trade and gotten Espy back (to use for a different trade).

Sale - 100% easiest trade a GM (or in this case President of Operations) has ever made. this was about as much of a "no- brainer' as there ever was. the only bummer is that it sure would have been nice to use Espinoza in this trade and have Moncada playing 2b for us right now.

Pearce - good sourcing

Eovaldi - could be a gem move. not psyched it cost us Beeks for a 2 month rental but if this year turns into a parade this move will have helped.

 

Many of us said the second DD was tied to Boston that our Farm was about to get annihilated/eviscerated. this has 100% happened. if it turns into a parade...worth it.

if it doesnt Ben>DD

 

I really don't agree with much of what you have listed here but whatever. Where the hell are you Hitch? Who do you mean by many of us? Come on - If I have to be more specific than so do you. Let's go.

[Hitch]

Huh?

[Slasher9]

The jury is still out on both of these signings IMHO

 

Fair.

[Slasher9]

I really don't agree with much of what you have listed here but whatever. Where the hell are you Hitch? Who do you mean by many of us? Come on - If I have to be more specific than so do you. Let's go.

 

Unfortunately all of the posts from when DD was first hired by Boston are gone for many of us. The former members that now post here can confirm or deny this ascertain that we knew the Farm was toast....

[OH FOY]

Johnson has a 1.80 era this year as a Starter.

[cp176]

Unfortunately all of the posts from when DD was first hired by Boston are gone for many of us. The former members that now post here can confirm or deny this ascertain that we knew the Farm was toast....

 

I don't think that our farm is toast at all. No one obviously ml ready but pretty soon they will be. I think that DD did what needed to be done. It is ok obviously for people to question everything that any GM does. Personally I love the way this guy operates. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything that he does but I far prefer a GM who acts as opposed to reacts or one who does not act. I don't hindsight deals that have been made. Some work and some don't. I think that he is for the most part one step ahead of the competition.

[notin]

I don't think that our farm is toast at all. No one obviously ml ready but pretty soon they will be. I think that DD did what needed to be done. It is ok obviously for people to question everything that any GM does. Personally I love the way this guy operates. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything that he does but I far prefer a GM who acts as opposed to reacts or one who does not act. I don't hindsight deals that have been made. Some work and some don't. I think that he is for the most part one step ahead of the competition.

 

Regardless of what you think, the farm system is toast. And it was obvious this would happen once Dombrowski was hired.

 

The only question that remains is whether or not it was worth it...

[Bellhorn04]

Regardless of what you think, the farm system is toast. And it was obvious this would happen once Dombrowski was hired.

 

The only question that remains is whether or not it was worth it...

 

This is just going to start up the same old cycle, but the fact that the farm system is toast is on Ben too IMO. He left Dombrowski with a well-stocked farm but virtually zero pitching. DD probably overdid it with what he gave up for pitching but I'd like to know how he could have magically conjured up a good pitching staff without making a bunch of trades.

[SoxnCycles]

Unfortunately all of the posts from when DD was first hired by Boston are gone for many of us. The former members that now post here can confirm or deny this ascertain that we knew the Farm was toast....

 

Yup, one could see the farm getting gutted from a mile away once DD was hired.

If it doesn't result in championship in the next couple of years, it'll be a waste.

[Hitch]

The farm has definitely been hammered. I don't see how that can be argued with. That said, while I think a few trades were overpay, they needed to be done. Ben left us with a brilliant farm but a team with many holes.

 

Needs must.

[Bellhorn04]

The farm has definitely been hammered. I don't see how that can be argued with. That said, while I think a few trades were overpay, they needed to be done. Ben left us with a brilliant farm but a team with many holes.

 

Needs must.

 

This is pretty much my position too.

[S5Dewey]

Yup, one could see the farm getting gutted from a mile away once DD was hired.

If it doesn't result in championship in the next couple of years, it'll be a waste.

 

Will it? Had he not "gutted the farm" we'd be looking at the Yankees' taillights up in the distance and we'd be saying, "Wait 'til next year!" Next year is 2019 when there's no reason to believe the Yankees are going to be worse than they are this year.

 

I like this team's chances very much in 2018. I also like our chances in 2019 but there are no guarantees in either year. After 2019 this window begins to close so we now have two years in which to make our hay. However, I'd rather be in the thick of things for two years than having the best farm system in the majors this year and saying "Wait until 2019!".

[Bellhorn04]

Will it? Had he not "gutted the farm" we'd be looking at the Yankees' taillights up in the distance and we'd be saying, "Wait 'til next year!" Next year is 2019 when there's no reason to believe the Yankees are going to be worse than they are this year.

 

Exactly.

[Jack Flap]

Without trying to get into another "cliff"/"DD killed the farm" discussion...

 

MLB Pipeline's midseason update to the top 100 prospect list features two former Red Sox farmhands - Michael Kopech at #13 and Logan Allen at 90.

 

Kopech has a 4.28 ERA and 1.36 WHIP while walking over 5 batters per 9 in Triple-A - he's got a great arm, obviously, but is not someone I'm shedding tears over trading for possibly the best pitcher on the planet.

 

Allen would be nice to have right now, and it's still kind of a bummer that he was the third piece in that deal. That said, would anyone really take that trade back now if they had the chance?

 

Other than that, all the prospects Dombrowski traded are either in the majors and scuffling (Margot, Moncada), hurt (Espinoza), or not top 100 material to begin with (Basabes, Dubon, and so on), so even if you could go back and rescind all of his deals, whether our farm would really look much better than it does now is highly dubious.

 

The main reason our system sucks this year is that we've graduated a lot of impact talent in recent years (Benintendi, Devers) and have largely failed to replace it, which is an issue that dates back before Dombrowski...the changes to the old system that allowed us to throw our financial weight around in the draft and international market to land better players have a role in this. We were in the penalty box for international amateur signings for a couple of years due to the money we spent bringing in Espinoza, Moncada, and others - and then had what prospects we were able to sign taken away one of those years due to tomfoolery in the foreign market. We've also suffered a rash of injuries and general bad luck beyond any GM's control (Groome TJ surgery, Chavis' PED suspension, a potential stud catcher in Daniel Flores suddenly passing away from cancer), and though recent drafts have brought in some interesting talent, much of it is still too raw and far away to be counted on for anything yet.

 

All of which is just to say that I think blaming our current thin farm on "Dombrowski trading all the prospects away" is an overly simplistic way of looking at the situation.

[Bellhorn04]

Without trying to get into another "cliff"/"DD killed the farm" discussion...

 

MLB Pipeline's midseason update to the top 100 prospect list features two former Red Sox farmhands - Michael Kopech at #13 and Logan Allen at 90.

 

Kopech has a 4.28 ERA and 1.36 WHIP while walking over 5 batters per 9 in Triple-A - he's got a great arm, obviously, but is not someone I'm shedding tears over trading for possibly the best pitcher on the planet.

 

Allen would be nice to have right now, and it's still kind of a bummer that he was the third piece in that deal. That said, would anyone really take that trade back now if they had the chance?

 

Other than that, all the prospects Dombrowski traded are either in the majors and scuffling (Margot, Moncada), hurt (Espinoza), or not top 100 material to begin with (Basabes, Dubon, and so on), so even if you could go back and rescind all of his deals, whether our farm would really look much better than it does now is highly dubious.

 

The main reason our system sucks this year is that we've graduated a lot of impact talent in recent years (Benintendi, Devers) and have largely failed to replace it, which is an issue that dates back before Dombrowski...the changes to the old system that allowed us to throw our financial weight around in the draft and international market to land better players have a role in this. We were in the penalty box for international amateur signings for a couple of years due to the money we spent bringing in Espinoza, Moncada, and others - and then had what prospects we were able to sign taken away one of those years due to tomfoolery in the foreign market. We've also suffered a rash of injuries and general bad luck beyond any GM's control (Groome TJ surgery, Chavis' PED suspension, a potential stud catcher in Daniel Flores suddenly passing away from cancer), and though recent drafts have brought in some interesting talent, much of it is still too raw and far away to be counted on for anything yet.

 

All of which is just to say that I think blaming our current thin farm on "Dombrowski trading all the prospects away" is an overly simplistic way of looking at the situation.

 

Excellent analysis Flap.

[kenmeister]

Madder than ever that Johnson returns to the bullpen and Pomeranz gets one more shot in the rotation.

[notin]

This is just going to start up the same old cycle, but the fact that the farm system is toast is on Ben too IMO. He left Dombrowski with a well-stocked farm but virtually zero pitching. DD probably overdid it with what he gave up for pitching but I'd like to know how he could have magically conjured up a good pitching staff without making a bunch of trades.

 

I don't want to get into that, either.

 

But DD definitely gutted the farm and it was a predictable outcome. Some trades I like. Some I did not.

 

My biggest gripe against BC was he never dealt any prospects.

 

But to say our farm isn't depleted right now does involve a certain amount of ostrich-like behavior...

[notin]

Madder than ever that Johnson returns to the bullpen and Pomeranz gets one more shot in the rotation.

 

Relax. Pomeranz does have the better history as a starter. But if he continues to flounder, he won't stay in the rotation.

 

Brian Johnson has already thrown 60IP this year and has only topped 100 IP once in his life. Why not use this opportunity to avoid taxing his arm, too?

[S5Dewey]

My biggest gripe against BC was he never dealt any prospects.

 

But to say our farm isn't depleted right now does involve a certain amount of ostrich-like behavior...

 

You and I agree on our biggest gripe about Ben but we phrase it differently. While you say "he never dealt any prospects" I say "he allowed the Red Sox to languish in last place for two consecutive years while stockpiling the best minor league system in baseball". In retrospect, the downside is the two last place finishes. The upside is that he extended these players time before Free Agency by one or two years. That may be worth the two last place finishes now but they were hard to take at the time.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that the farm isn't depleted but I don't get the 'panic' about it. In exchange for that depleted farm we've got one of the best teams in baseball and many of them are sewed up for a couple of more years. IMO we should be enjoying this rather than 'borrowing trouble' about the potential cliff.

[Kimmi]

I don't want to get into that, either.

 

But DD definitely gutted the farm and it was a predictable outcome. Some trades I like. Some I did not.

 

My biggest gripe against BC was he never dealt any prospects.

 

But to say our farm isn't depleted right now does involve a certain amount of ostrich-like behavior...

 

When you're building a farm system, you don't deal prospects until the time is right. You try to keep the team competitive with short term FA signings. I have no doubt that had Ben still been here, he would have dealt some prospects in 2016. I also have no doubt that the team would have made the playoffs all 3 years if Ben were still here.

[Kimmi]

When you're building a farm system, you don't deal prospects until the time is right. You try to keep the team competitive with short term FA signings. I have no doubt that had Ben still been here, he would have dealt some prospects in 2016. I also have no doubt that the team would have made the playoffs all 3 years if Ben were still here.

 

Plus, we'd still have a respectable farm.

[mvp 78]

When you're building a farm system, you don't deal prospects until the time is right. You try to keep the team competitive with short term FA signings. I have no doubt that had Ben still been here, he would have dealt some prospects in 2016. I also have no doubt that the team would have made the playoffs all 3 years if Ben were still here.

 

Why? The team came in last place 3 out of the 4 years he was at the helm?

[Hitch]

But it could be argued at that time we didn't have the young core we do now that has this sustained amount of time to go for the titles. DD traded away prospects and brought up prospects for a very enticing mix at the right time. I'm not sure Ben had the same luxury of timing during those years.

[mvp 78]

But it could be argued at that time we didn't have the young core we do now that has this sustained amount of time to go for the titles. DD traded away prospects and brought up prospects for a very enticing mix at the right time. I'm not sure Ben had the same luxury of timing during those years.

 

I'm not sure it can be argued that Ben could put together a competent starting rotation. Ben had the luxury to trade whoever, he just didn't want to. There's no reason to expect him to not hoard prospects. I don't see him trading for Sale or Kimbrel. Without them, they probably don't make the playoffs. Maybe Ben even signs a few more Pablos and Hanleys to join in the decimation of the cap.

[dgalehouse]

If the traded prospects were not worth the likes of Sale and Kimbrel , exactly what would they be worth today had we held on to them ? Something better ?

[Hitch]

I'm not sure it can be argued that Ben could put together a competent starting rotation. Ben had the luxury to trade whoever, he just didn't want to. There's no reason to expect him to not hoard prospects. I don't see him trading for Sale or Kimbrel. Without them, they probably don't make the playoffs. Maybe Ben even signs a few more Pablos and Hanleys to join in the decimation of the cap.

 

Sure, but those aren't the things I mentioned. I was talking about timing. I don't know if he would have pulled the trigger, I don't have enough evidence to judge him on that assumption, but I do think it can be argued that at the time DD took over, the time to pull the trigger was very good with the young core of the team in place for several years and talent like Beni and Devers coming close to making the step up, too.

 

Whether Ben would have pulled the trigger as well, I don't know, or really care. DD did and I love the team, even if I think he overpaid a player or two in some deals.

[Spudboy]

Regardless of what you think, the farm system is toast. And it was obvious this would happen once Dombrowski was hired.

 

The only question that remains is whether or not it was worth it...

 

The Sox drafts since 2014 ( I believe ) have been non-productive other than Benni.

 

Yeah, DD sold our prospects for winning now.

 

The pipeline has not produced anything of substance ( other than Benni ).

[Spudboy]

Without trying to get into another "cliff"/"DD killed the farm" discussion...

 

MLB Pipeline's midseason update to the top 100 prospect list features two former Red Sox farmhands - Michael Kopech at #13 and Logan Allen at 90.

 

Kopech has a 4.28 ERA and 1.36 WHIP while walking over 5 batters per 9 in Triple-A - he's got a great arm, obviously, but is not someone I'm shedding tears over trading for possibly the best pitcher on the planet.

 

Allen would be nice to have right now, and it's still kind of a bummer that he was the third piece in that deal. That said, would anyone really take that trade back now if they had the chance?

 

Other than that, all the prospects Dombrowski traded are either in the majors and scuffling (Margot, Moncada), hurt (Espinoza), or not top 100 material to begin with (Basabes, Dubon, and so on), so even if you could go back and rescind all of his deals, whether our farm would really look much better than it does now is highly dubious.

 

The main reason our system sucks this year is that we've graduated a lot of impact talent in recent years (Benintendi, Devers) and have largely failed to replace it, which is an issue that dates back before Dombrowski...the changes to the old system that allowed us to throw our financial weight around in the draft and international market to land better players have a role in this. We were in the penalty box for international amateur signings for a couple of years due to the money we spent bringing in Espinoza, Moncada, and others - and then had what prospects we were able to sign taken away one of those years due to tomfoolery in the foreign market. We've also suffered a rash of injuries and general bad luck beyond any GM's control (Groome TJ surgery, Chavis' PED suspension, a potential stud catcher in Daniel Flores suddenly passing away from cancer), and though recent drafts have brought in some interesting talent, much of it is still too raw and far away to be counted on for anything yet.

 

All of which is just to say that I think blaming our current thin farm on "Dombrowski trading all the prospects away" is an overly simplistic way of looking at the situation.

 

Excellent post.