Sox starting pitching thread

[dgalehouse]

To my knowledge, no one has ever denied the existence 'choke' or 'clutch' performances or plays.

 

I believe that there are absolutely players who cannot handle the pressure (chokers). I also believe that those players either do not make it to the big leagues or do not last very long if they do. I do not believe that Price is a choker.

 

What I am denying is the concept of 'clutch' being a sustainable and repeatable skill, in terms of the ability to raise one's game to the next level in high pressure situations. Players who appear to be clutch are simply great players to begin with.

 

If you want to define clutch as the ability not to choke, which many people seem on board with, then I can live with that. But in that case, I would say all major leaguers are clutch.

 

Players would not last if they choked repeatedly. However , some athletes just cannot handle certain high pressure situations. Chances are the anxiety will get to them and they will choke in those certain situations. In normal situations , they are fine , or they can either overcome the anxiety or maybe just luck out in some pressure situations . It's all in the mind , but it is always there. While one might debate the existence of " clutch " , there can be no doubt about the existence of " choke " or " getting the apple " or " the yips " or whatever you want to call it. It is real. Athletes know it and try many things to overcome it. Some are able to completely get it out of their mind. Some just can't.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Btw, Brian Johnson is pitching tonight vs T.Roark. Game time is 6:05.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

We can all speculate on chocking and clutch, but one thing is certain, the SOX own the NL. There's no way to explain this phenomenon other than the fact it's been going on for a long time.

 

Btw, in the SOX's last 3 WS's they have a record of 12-2 against the NL. And since 1997, the year inter league play started, the SOX have the best winning percentage in the AL against the NL. They're also #1 in run differential by a large margin.

Edited July 3, 2018 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[FredLynn]

Not enough SP to win a ring. All the pitching money is tied up in Triple AAA, the Dominican, San Fran and Priceless. Sale on pace for another 200 plus IP, Porcello HR rate climbing as it was last year, ERod is a 5 inning pitcher.... I quote the words of the great Terry Francona, "Good Luck"

 

And yet we have the third best ERA in the league-and the fourth best SP ERA. Do you think that you have to be #1 in both categories to win a ring? Do your own research and find out how often the #1 ERA staff has won a ring in the past ten years or so. Then get back to me.

[Hitch]

Porcello's HR rate is fine. He's on the same HR pace as in 2016, his Cy Young season, and much better than last year.

 

You're grasping at straws. But that's what trolls do.

 

'Troll' gets thrown around so much these days, simply having a difference of opinion (no matter how stupid) is enough to label somebody.

 

Do you really believe he's spending his time trying to wind you up? Or is it just an informed opinion?

[Bellhorn04]

'Troll' gets thrown around so much these days, simply having a difference of opinion (no matter how stupid) is enough to label somebody.

 

Do you really believe he's spending his time trying to wind you up? Or is it just an informed opinion?

 

I don't throw the term around lightly at all. Just check his posting history.

[OH FOY]

Players would not last if they choked repeatedly. However , some athletes just cannot handle certain high pressure situations. Chances are the anxiety will get to them and they will choke in those certain situations. In normal situations , they are fine , or they can either overcome the anxiety or maybe just luck out in some pressure situations . It's all in the mind , but it is always there. While one might debate the existence of " clutch " , there can be no doubt about the existence of " choke " or " getting the apple " or " the yips " or whatever you want to call it. It is real. Athletes know it and try many things to overcome it. Some are able to completely get it out of their mind. Some just can't.

 

Agree, Reggie Jackson in High Pressure situation different kind of Player, not only with Yanks either, he was force with those A's teams too. He loved pressure. Critical time in the game you were hoping he was not the one coming to bat.

Edited July 3, 2018 by OH FOY!

[Hitch]

I don't throw the term around lightly at all. Just check his posting history.

 

I've been reading his posts. He seems...how shall we say...lacking in logic on times.

 

I don't see him as a troll.

 

It begs the question if you do, why bother replying?

[reYoukilis]

The fact is and the facts are undisputed,

Price is a bust and right up there with Sandoval Crawford Renteria Craig Ramirez and every other swinging #ic# Management brought in here without any regard to the media scrutiny and the hefty contracts given out to players over the age of thirty. Its a complete joke!

 

Now, is it salvageable? Yes it is, but the approach needed is to rid this team of the under performers. Dump Porcello who clears a spot for Castillo ( to pair with JBJ and better bench depth) and find a third starter to finish out the season. Porcello allows to many home runs per 9 to be counted on in a playoff run. I'll take my chances with Sale ERod and wright if need be.

 

As constituted this Starting Pitching staff will not win you a Series.

 

How bout machine gun tonight vs Washington. Another run allowed another kimbrel bailout in the 8th!

And it's the media as well as those front office people who get intimidated by them into just spending money, that are the problem. I've been a proponent of what the Astros did and are doing since they ditched all their high priced talent and stayed with their farm system. We started doing that and DD just started spending and now we're stuck with Price. I'll be glad to be wrong about Price though, glad to be.

[reYoukilis]

To my knowledge, no one has ever denied the existence 'choke' or 'clutch' performances or plays.

 

I believe that there are absolutely players who cannot handle the pressure (chokers). I also believe that those players either do not make it to the big leagues or do not last very long if they do. I do not believe that Price is a choker.

 

What I am denying is the concept of 'clutch' being a sustainable and repeatable skill, in terms of the ability to raise one's game to the next level in high pressure situations. Players who appear to be clutch are simply great players to begin with.

 

If you want to define clutch as the ability not to choke, which many people seem on board with, then I can live with that. But in that case, I would say all major leaguers are clutch.

How do you explain Prices outing then? He's got the talent right. Not saying he had to win but 6 runs? Should've been 1-0 game or 2-0, no more than 3-0. Should've been a pitcher's duel.

 

I have a theory on chokers vs non chokers. Chokers feel as if they have to protect something, like an image or something. Non chokers are free

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

The best way to deal with MADDORK is to just ignore him. He's the kind of slug that when he's asked if he has a girlfriend, he points at his hand.

[Bellhorn04]

I've been reading his posts. He seems...how shall we say...lacking in logic on times.

 

I don't see him as a troll.

 

It begs the question if you do, why bother replying?

 

Mainly because I can't just let his nonsense stand. Partially just for kicks.

[kenmeister]

Btw, Brian Johnson is pitching tonight vs T.Roark. Game time is 6:05.

 

Here's hoping he throws a gem!

[Kimmi]

Back to the rotation. One month ago I thought we had the second best rotation in MLB after the Astros. Now I have my doubts. Sale is still great. The new Porcello ain't great, but is a decent to good #3. Price, however, seems to be slipping and ERod is slipping even faster. Wright has been fantastic except for his last start, but he is on the DL.

 

I am interested to see how Price bounces back from his start against the Yankees.

 

It sounds as though Wright will be back fairly soon.

 

As of now, I am not concerned about our rotation.

[Kimmi]

I wouldn't call Price a choker. But I think he does have some significant negative baggage in his head and that it might affect him. I think it might have affected him Sunday night. How can we really know one way or the other?

 

I agree with you. I posted in one of the threads that I think he has let the media and fan scrutiny get in his head, and we know how intense that scrutiny is during a Yankees series. I most definitely think that Sunday's poor start was due more to his 'baggage' than to anything else.

[Kimmi]

Players would not last if they choked repeatedly. However , some athletes just cannot handle certain high pressure situations. Chances are the anxiety will get to them and they will choke in those certain situations. In normal situations , they are fine , or they can either overcome the anxiety or maybe just luck out in some pressure situations . It's all in the mind , but it is always there. While one might debate the existence of " clutch " , there can be no doubt about the existence of " choke " or " getting the apple " or " the yips " or whatever you want to call it. It is real. Athletes know it and try many things to overcome it. Some are able to completely get it out of their mind. Some just can't.

 

I really have no argument with this post.

[Kimmi]

How do you explain Prices outing then? He's got the talent right. Not saying he had to win but 6 runs? Should've been 1-0 game or 2-0, no more than 3-0. Should've been a pitcher's duel.

 

I have a theory on chokers vs non chokers. Chokers feel as if they have to protect something, like an image or something. Non chokers are free

 

How do you explain that Price can pitch well out of the BP in the postseason if he is a choker?

 

I do believe that a player's performance is affected by his mental state. I think, as Bellhorn stated, Price has some 'baggage' when it comes to the media and fan scrutiny that he has a hard time overcoming.

[Hitch]

Mainly because I can't just let his nonsense stand. Partially just for kicks.

 

Haha I can understand the feeling behind that first sentence.

[S5Dewey]

How do you explain that Price can pitch well out of the BP in the postseason if he is a choker?

 

I do believe that a player's performance is affected by his mental state. I think, as Bellhorn stated, Price has some 'baggage' when it comes to the media and fan scrutiny that he has a hard time overcoming.

 

I wish you believed in choke so you'd have a definition for it. What you posted there - that a player's physical performance is affected by his mental state - sounds like a definition of choke to me.

 

I "explain" his good performance out of the pen by his not having time to think about it. He doesn't get to stew about the media and fan scrutiny before the game. He's just told, "You're up. Go out there and pitch" and it's easier for him if he hasn't thought about it. But that's just MO.

[Bellhorn04]

I wish you believed in choke so you'd have a definition for it. What you posted there - that a player's physical performance is affected by his mental state - sounds like a definition of choke to me.

 

I "explain" his good performance out of the pen by his not having time to think about it. He doesn't get to stew about the media and fan scrutiny before the game. He's just told, "You're up. Go out there and pitch" and it's easier for him if he hasn't thought about it. But that's just MO.

 

I think there is definitely a fine line between what some people call choke and what others call 'negative mental factors' or some such thing.

[SoxHop]

I think there is definitely a fine line between what some people call choke and what others call 'negative mental factors' or some such thing.

 

"Situational Transgression under Un-Normal or un-Natural Experienced Duress"? Stunned?

[Bellhorn04]

"Situational Transgression under Un-Normal or un-Natural Experienced Duress"? Stunned?

 

Nice! Very creative.

[vegasbob]

How do you explain that Price can pitch well out of the BP in the postseason if he is a choker?

 

I do believe that a player's performance is affected by his mental state. I think, as Bellhorn stated, Price has some 'baggage' when it comes to the media and fan scrutiny that he has a hard time overcoming.

 

The baggage is likely lack of self confidence combined with self loathing while putting a tough guy face on for the veneer. I suspect Price and others who have problems with pressure really don't believe they have the right stuff and their conscious mind overrides their actual abilities. Got that from a placard at the Holiday Inn Express last night

[vegasbob]

I wish you believed in choke so you'd have a definition for it. What you posted there - that a player's physical performance is affected by his mental state - sounds like a definition of choke to me.

 

I "explain" his good performance out of the pen by his not having time to think about it. He doesn't get to stew about the media and fan scrutiny before the game. He's just told, "You're up. Go out there and pitch" and it's easier for him if he hasn't thought about it. But that's just MO.

 

Good reasoning

[dgalehouse]

We cannot get inside the head of athletes to know what situations they can handle and which trigger the " choke " reflex. Different things for different players. There are basketball players who want to take the last shot with the game on the line , but put them on the free throw line in that situation and they are a nervous wreck. Many coaches will use a time out to " ice " free throw shooters or placekickers in football. Maybe Price feels less pressure in a relief role . Who knows ?

[reYoukilis]

How do you explain that Price can pitch well out of the BP in the postseason if he is a choker?

 

I do believe that a player's performance is affected by his mental state. I think, as Bellhorn stated, Price has some 'baggage' when it comes to the media and fan scrutiny that he has a hard time overcoming.

Well he's supposed to do well at least sometimes. No doubt it was a much needed well done job by him. I also noticed that he had a look like "in your face doubters" look on his face when that's what he's supposed to do.

 

Maybe he's more bullpen material. Maybe there's something about starting that gets to him psychologically. I remember Tim Lincecum coming through in the bullpen in the WS after he was looking pretty much washed up. Maybe Price is more sprinter than marathon runner

[Slasher9]

How do you explain that Price can pitch well out of the BP in the postseason if he is a choker?

 

I do believe that a player's performance is affected by his mental state. .

Less time to think about it when called in from the pen?

[SoxHop]

Less time to think about it when called in from the pen?

 

Really great theory........ interesting.

[S5Dewey]

I think there is definitely a fine line between what some people call choke and what others call 'negative mental factors' or some such thing.

 

There are two factors in a player's performance - the physical factor and the mental factor. When the mental factor affects a player's physical performance negatively it's called "choking" (or "chocking" ) and when the mental factor affects the physical performance positively it's called being clutch.

[Hitch]

Less time to think about it when called in from the pen?

 

It could be argued you've got a lot more time to think about it in the pen.