Fire alex cora

[moonslav59]

I know, the whole thing is making mountains out of molehills.

 

7-10 less ABs by 3 guys (who are among the team leaders in OPS) is supposed to be a significant reason we sucked in April, and it carrier over all year.

 

The IP variance is almost as meager.

[Bellhorn04]

To me, if I had to guess, I'd say it was more Cora's idea than DD's.

 

DD was canned for other reasons, IMO, including leaving almost nothing in the farm and the way he was dealing with ownership and others in the organization not restgate.

 

I agree with this too, except I don't think it was much about depleting the farm, because Henry would have expected that - more about not being the right guy to rebuild the farm.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Bellhorn04

[cp176]

I don't think the choices were to trade every notable prospect, except Devers & Beni or trade none.

 

I'm not sure there's a single poster here that said trade none, yet we keep hearing (not from you) that anyone critical of all the trades wanted to "hoard" all the prospects. I don't even think it was Ben's long term plan to hoard them forever- but to strike a balance.

 

Maybe saying he "destroyed the farm" is a little harsh, but we were ranked #1 by one service and between 3 and 6 by several others- now we are 30th by just about every service. What would you call that?

 

We all knew we'd pay to some extent for trading so many prospects. I'm super glad he kept Devers & Beni, but to some varying degree in opinions, we all know we sacrificed some to a lot of the future to open a 3-5 year window of championship caliber teams.

 

 

i honestly think that if the starting rotation had remained healthy as expected and that DD had added maybe just one piece to the bullpen, this team would definitely still be in the hunt. I honestly believe that the prospects worth keeping were kept. I don't know what the future may bring but personally it gets tiring to hear that DD decimated the farm by trading away players that quite possibly would never have helped us. the ones that possibly could help us down the line, brought back some pretty good players. Some of this lengthy discussion comes as a result of a difference in philosophy I think.

[jacksonianmarch]

I agree with this too, except I don't think it was much about depleting the farm, because Henry would have expected that - more about not being the righjt guy to rebuild the farm.

 

That’s the rub, IMO. DD isn’t the guy who breaks down a former title winner. He’s a builder not a rebuilder.

 

Listen, DD didn’t go empty handed. He got paid for the last 2 months of 2019 and for the entirety of the baseball year of 2020. (Baseball year begins in November). DD saw the writing on the wall and didn’t want to waste his time. He is likely done as a GM. Dinosaurs like him don’t function well in this new age unless you want to win right now and spend a s*** ton doing it

[notin]

i honestly think that if the starting rotation had remained healthy as expected and that DD had added maybe just one piece to the bullpen, this team would definitely still be in the hunt. I honestly believe that the prospects worth keeping were kept. I don't know what the future may bring but personally it gets tiring to hear that DD decimated the farm by trading away players that quite possibly would never have helped us. the ones that possibly could help us down the line, brought back some pretty good players. Some of this lengthy discussion comes as a result of a difference in philosophy I think.

 

I would defintely ay the Sox dealt a lot of prospects who were worth keeping, but in most cases, there was no other option if you wanted to get Sale, et al. But it is a fair discussion to bring up these prospects because there is a trade off when you make those deals. And maybe the trade off can be justified, but that doesn't mean it can be ignored...

[moonslav59]

I agree with this too, except I don't think it was much about depleting the farm, because Henry would have expected that - more about not being the righjt guy to rebuild the farm.

 

I can see this. I do think he had hope we wouldn't be the worst farm after 3 years.

[moonslav59]

I would defintely ay the Sox dealt a lot of prospects who were worth keeping, but in most cases, there was no other option if you wanted to get Sale, et al. But it is a fair discussion to bring up these prospects because there is a trade off when you make those deals. And maybe the trade off can be justified, but that doesn't mean it can be ignored...

 

You said it in a lot less words than I ever did.

[Elktonnick]

I agree with this too, except I don't think it was much about depleting the farm, because Henry would have expected that - more about not being the righjt guy to rebuild the farm.

 

I think you are largely correct. I also think you are also right about him not being the right guy to rebuild the team. I think DD was fired because he was not the right guy for a collaborative front office culture. He got fired because he was a lone ranger. There was rumors about him being fired last year. I have scoured Peter Gammons tweet record. I am convinced that DD wasn't fired for any of his baseball decisions per se but rather the WAY those baseball decisions were made. One can infer that many in the organization didn't agree with DDs moves and he may have run roughshod over their opinions. When the record didn't match the rhetoric the long knives were out and management decided not renew his contract. DD wanted assurances when he didn't get them he walked out. Based on Gammons reporting that's the way it went down.

[S5Dewey]

I would defintely ay the Sox dealt a lot of prospects who were worth keeping, but in most cases, there was no other option if you wanted to get Sale, et al. But it is a fair discussion to bring up these prospects because there is a trade off when you make those deals. And maybe the trade off can be justified, but that doesn't mean it can be ignored...

 

I don't understand all the hand-wringing about who we could or should have traded to get the players who helped win a WSC. The goal was to win in 2018 and they did.

 

So many posters justified (and yes, I'm going to say this) trading Iggy for Peavey by saying that it helped win a WSC. If one believes that then it has merit but these same posters who then were implying that 'the end justifies the means' are now whining about the means that were used to win in 2018.

 

Me? I like the banner over being able to say, "We had the best AAA team in baseball in 2018".

[jad]

It's obvious I was saying the conclusions are conjecture, and for you to pretend otherwise is very telling.

 

FYI

 

ABs 2018>2019

 

52 >42 Betts

50 >52 Devers

47 >43 Bogey

47 >40 JD

46 >47 Beni

46 >43 JBJ

45 >32 Moreland

39 >39 Holt

38 >38 Vaz

 

4 of these 9 players had the same or more ABs in 2019 STing.

 

The ones that did not had these less:

10 Betts

7 JD

7 Moreland

4 Bogey

3 JBJ

 

If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were joking to think these minor variances had such a major impact.

 

It won't matter. Once you show that tangible facts do not fit their narrative, they will begin appealing (and already have) to 'intangibles', e.g., the 'attitude' of the team, etc., which no one can measure or perceive, players' 'readiness to play', also imperceptible.

[moonslav59]

It won't matter. Once you show that tangible facts do not fit their narrative, they will begin appealing (and already have) to 'intangibles', e.g., the 'attitude' of the team, etc., which no one can measure or perceive, players' 'readiness to play', also imperceptible.

 

Yes, the attitudes changed because Bogey got 4 less ABs, and the whole team saw that it was a kick-back season.

 

This stuff cracks me up.

 

The reaching for any excuse is laughable.

[S5Dewey]

And while I'm on the topic of things I don't understand....

 

I don't understand the finger-pointing at Cora for not playing the regulars enough in ST.

 

Hey! These guys are among the leaders in runs scored and their defense is solid!

 

Give it a rest. ST playing time for regulars is not the problem.

[moonslav59]

And while I'm on the topic of things I don't understand....

 

I don't understand the finger-pointing at Cora for not playing the regulars enough in ST.

 

Hey! These guys are among the leaders in runs scored and their defense is solid!

 

Give it a rest. ST playing time for regulars is not the problem.

 

Did the extra rest Moreland got cause the injury?

[S5Dewey]

Did the extra rest Moreland got cause the injury?

 

LOL. I'm sure.

[Slasher9]

Yes, the attitudes changed because Bogey got 4 less ABs, and the whole team saw that it was a kick-back season.

 

This stuff cracks me up.

 

The reaching for any excuse is laughable.

 

ahhhhh....ok. so you saw the "Fire & Desire" this season??

like you i watch every inning of every game. let me know which games you saw that F&D?

the lackadaisical approach started day 1 of ST and has not been snuffed out. IMO.

[Bellhorn04]

ahhhhh....ok. so you saw the "Fire & Desire" this season??

like you i watch every inning of every game. let me know which games you saw that F&D?

the lackadaisical approach started day 1 of ST and has not been snuffed out. IMO.

 

When the team isn't winning as many games as expected I think it's natural to start 'reading between the lines' of what's going on.

 

Personally I believe if the 2019 starting pitching was anywhere near expectations, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

[moonslav59]

ahhhhh....ok. so you saw the "Fire & Desire" this season??

like you i watch every inning of every game. let me know which games you saw that F&D?

the lackadaisical approach started day 1 of ST and has not been snuffed out. IMO.

 

No, I didn't see the fire and desire, but I'm not about to blame it on Bogey getting 4 less ABs in spring, or that a lot of players getting 4-10 less ABs of 4-10 less IP as the big attitude changer.

 

Maybe, and I stress the word maybe, it played a very small, and I stress the word very, role in the lack of fire & desire. That's my opinion, and you guys can go to town with yours, but it's all total speculation by all of us.

[moonslav59]

When the team isn't winning as many games as expected I think it's natural to start 'reading between the lines' of what's going on.

 

Personally I believe if the 2019 starting pitching was anywhere near expectations, we wouldn't be having these discussions.

 

I happen to think the idea of giving the SP'er a little extra rest in spring made sense. They are aging, injury prone and came off a long playoff season with extra innings pitched.

 

My hope was, we might suffer a little in April but more than make up for it later in the year, when we needed them most. I think most baseball people think resting players a little more helps them later in the season. The fact that it did nt, in this case, proves nothing. One sample size proves nothing. Sure, it can be used as evidence to support the opinion that it was a bad idea, but nothing can be proven.

 

There are countless reasons why we sucked out of the gate. We've sucked in April before and gone on to have good to great seasons. Who know why that didn't happen this year. My guess is there are over a dozen reasons all lined up against us, this year.

[moonslav59]

ahhhhh....ok. so you saw the "Fire & Desire" this season??

like you i watch every inning of every game. let me know which games you saw that F&D?

the lackadaisical approach started day 1 of ST and has not been snuffed out. IMO.

 

What happened on that very first day of ST'ing, before any games even started?

[Slasher9]

What happened on that very first day of ST'ing, before any games even started?

 

my guess:

Cora to the players: "ok boys. since we are world champs and had to play so many more games then everyone else last season and you are fragile, delicate little flowers we are going to just go through the motions the spring. i dont want you thinking or working too hard as i need you to save everything for this october. i do not want you breaking a sweat during spring training. feel free to sleep in late, practices are not mandatory and i dont want any starters showing up to the park if the temp is above 80 degrees. since we steamrolled everyone last year winning 108 games during the regular season i expect we will just be able to ramp up after the regular season begins, throw our gloves on the field, and have 100+ wins. we have incorporated sleep pods into our Ft. Myers facility for you to take naps. please use these whenver you are feeling even the slightest bit tired."

[Slasher9]

#fire&desire

[Bellhorn04]

my guess:

Cora to the players: "ok boys. since we are world champs and had to play so many more games then everyone else last season and you are fragile, delicate little flowers we are going to just go through the motions the spring. i dont want you thinking or working too hard as i need you to save everything for this october. i do not want you breaking a sweat during spring training. feel free to sleep in late, practices are not mandatory and i dont want any starters showing up to the park if the temp is above 80 degrees. since we steamrolled everyone last year winning 108 games during the regular season i expect we will just be able to ramp up after the regular season begins, throw our gloves on the field, and have 100+ wins. we have incorporated sleep pods into our Ft. Myers facility for you to take naps. please use these whenver you are feeling even the slightest bit tired."

 

Yeah, we can make up anything we want, can't we?

[Bellhorn04]

Slash, didn't you say something about the lackadaisical spring contributing to injuries?

 

The Red Sox position players have actually stayed very healthy as a group.

 

Meanwhile, the Yankees have had historical levels of injuries.

 

Once again the facts tend to get in the way of a good story.

[Slasher9]

Slash, didn't you say something about the lackadaisical spring contributing to injuries?

 

The Red Sox position players have actually stayed very healthy as a group.

 

Meanwhile, the Yankees have had historical levels of injuries.

 

Once again the facts tend to get in the way of a good story.

 

i think there is a misunderstanding about my issue with spring training. the problem for me wasnt so much the physical approach to ST but the mental approach and the perception it gave to the players.

at some point i am sure i said that perhaps the Sox pitchers got injured due to improper Spring Training work. who knows. i really dont care about the injuries so much as i care about the approach to the season. the tone was set early for this team to just coast. and that is exactly what they have done. IMO.

[S5Dewey]

i think there is a misunderstanding about my issue with spring training. the problem for me wasnt so much the physical approach to ST but the mental approach and the perception it gave to the players.

at some point i am sure i said that perhaps the Sox pitchers got injured due to improper Spring Training work. who knows. i really dont care about the injuries so much as i care about the approach to the season. the tone was set early for this team to just coast. and that is exactly what they have done. IMO.

 

Anyone who's played or coached on very successful (or not at all successful) teams knows that winning and losing are both self-perpetuating. When a team is winning spirits are good and everyone has everyone else's backs. Every loss hurts. When teams are losing a general malaise sets in and the attitude becomes, 'ok. We lost today, but we'll do better tomorrow.' That's what it felt like to me this year.

[jacksonianmarch]

Winning teams want it. Winning teams put in the work. I’ve been on some very good teams and the great teams wanted it more than the others. Preparation is paramount. I’ve been on two teams in my life that should have won local or regional titles but didn’t. And it was because we assumed a trip to the POs was a given

[Bellhorn04]

Anyone who's played or coached on very successful (or not at all successful) teams knows that winning and losing are both self-perpetuating. When a team is winning spirits are good and everyone has everyone else's backs. Every loss hurts. When teams are losing a general malaise sets in and the attitude becomes, 'ok. We lost today, but we'll do better tomorrow.' That's what it felt like to me this year.

 

I also think the problems with the starting pitching would tend to create some malaise in the rest of the team.

 

When you're constantly falling behind early in games, when you're seeing Sale and Porcello getting knocked around like we saw, it has to take some of the energy out of the rest of the team.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Bellhorn04

[dgalehouse]

I also think the problems with the starting pitching would tend to create some malaise in the rest of the team.

 

When you're constantly falling behind in early in games, when you're seeing Sale and Porcello getting knocked around like we saw, it has to take some of the energy out of the rest of the team.

 

Yep . Kind of like how blown saves can be demoralizing .

[Larry Cook]

To me, if I had to guess, I'd say it was more Cora's idea than DD's.

 

DD was canned for other reasons, IMO, including leaving almost nothing in the farm and the way he was dealing with ownership and others in the organization not restgate.

 

If management brings in desperate Dave and gives him the keys to the Bugatti and says win at all cost, shouldn’t the draining of the farm system be considered as a logical step in the win at all cost marching orders?

[moonslav59]

If management brings in desperate Dave and gives him the keys to the Bugatti and says win at all cost, shouldn’t the draining of the farm system be considered as a logical step in the win at all cost marching orders?

 

If that's what they said (doubtful) and this has nothing to do with my response about restgate.