A Realistic View at 2018: Part I

[mvp 78]

Leadership is hard to import - it comes from the dudes who have done the work ... of course, this is all based on a strawman here, that the team lacked grit or fundamentals or toughness. That is a highly questionable premise - that the kids were lackadasical or whatever.

 

Very questionable...

[moonslav59]

So then, when was the last time the Sox had leadership?

 

I'm not sure. Since it's so hard to identify, we're all just stabbing at the dark.

 

I was never a big Dempster fan, but I was told repeatedly how great he was in the clubhouse, and how he was "needed" to win the ring in 2013. I had and have my doubts on that one.

 

I guess one could say Millar and Mueller were good leaders way back when.

 

I'm not big on the idea we lack player leadership, but I don't think it would hurt to add some.

[Spudboy]

And the 2016 unit was basically the same roster except for Papi. Were they functioning "more as a unit" because Papi was the leader? How is that even determined? Seems to me more of a personal perception thing than anything else.

 

I agree. The game must be played by individuals.

[Spudboy]

in baseball, talent > leadership.

 

We don't share the ball. Every at bat is on you. If I go 4-4 with 4 home runs, I've done pretty much all I can as a hitter. I can be a dick, no one has to like me. I don't need to exhibit leadership skills. My night was perfect. Give me that guy over a leader any day of the week.

 

You guys are getting deep into weeds. Baseball is not complicated.

 

Lol. I can tell you I am in the weed!

 

Wake and Bake baby!

[Spudboy]

So then, when was the last time the Sox had leadership?

 

Yaz sitting in a rocking chair, drinking a Bud, and smoking a Marlboro.

 

That was leadership.

[moonslav59]

Yaz sitting in a rocking chair, drinking a Bud, and smoking a Marlboro.

 

That was leadership.

 

Almost fell on the floor laughing.

 

[mvp 78]

@bradfo

 

The on again, off again Brian Johnson to the bullpen convo is clearing up. He will pitch a few times as a starter and then most likely spend most of ST as a reliever. He is out of options

[Bellhorn04]

Former Yankee pitcher Esteban Loaiza has been arrested on felony drug charges.

 

Can anybody tell me Loaiza's big moment in Red Sox history, without looking it up?

[bkzwhitestrican]

He pitched on the Yankees for like a fifth of a year. He also pitched 13+ years with other teams. I see what you're trying to do

[notin]

This whole "needs a leader" strikes me as more sports journalism BS along the lines of"team chemistry" or"team identity". None of us have a clue what goes on behind the scenes. It's one thing to say "this team needs power. " You can back that up wIth plenty of facts and starts. And really, the only counterargument is whether or not you can find an alternative to power, like more pitching, as a better way to win. But all this other stuff is guesswork as to whether or not it's a problem and how to quantify it.

[Nick]

Laugh all you want......give me statistical leader at every position and I'll beat your leadershipass every time.

[cp176]

Come on notin - Not everything in the world has to be supported by ******** statistics. There are actually people on here who don't think that it is necessary for the Sox to do anything and they will still be ok. I don't really give a fiddler's fart what you or anybody else thinks about the importance of leadership and team identity or any of the other mysterious things that can't be defined in the universe. I played - I coached more - therefore I believe in these things very much. A person's mental approach to the game may be much more important to what they can produce on the field than their physical attributes. You can doubt all of this good s*** all you want. It seems that you are in good company here to. Looks to me like having the home field advantage.

[Bellhorn04]

He pitched on the Yankees for like a fifth of a year. He also pitched 13+ years with other teams. I see what you're trying to do

 

No, he really was involved in a big moment in Red Sox history.

[cp176]

Laugh all you want......give me statistical leader at every position and I'll beat your leader shipass every time.

 

 

Ok you sure got me here. If I had a statistical leader at every position, I could easily get rid of a few *******s and still kick everybody's ass. I wish just once in my life I could have been associated with a team of such dominance.

[S5Dewey]

This whole "needs a leader" strikes me as more sports journalism BS along the lines of"team chemistry" or"team identity". None of us have a clue what goes on behind the scenes. It's one thing to say "this team needs power. " You can back that up wIth plenty of facts and starts. And really, the only counterargument is whether or not you can find an alternative to power, like more pitching, as a better way to win. But all this other stuff is guesswork as to whether or not it's a problem and how to quantify it.

 

Yep. And I'm guessing that leadership is a quality that can't be explained with metrics. Your results may vary.

[Nick]

Ok you sure got me here. If I had a statistical leader at every position, I could easily get rid of a few *******s and still kick everybody's ass. I wish just once in my life I could have been associated with a team of such dominance.

 

So you are admitting 'production' > intangibles?

 

You think Ortiz would be loved if he was batting .220?

 

Yes, I do have you. Baseball is a collection of individual talents. Better production beats better leadership. How in the f*** can you refute that?

[cp176]

So you are admitting 'production' > intangibles?

 

You think Ortiz would be loved if he was batting .220?

 

Yes, I do have you. Baseball is a collection of individual talents. Better production beats better leadership. How in the f*** can you refute that?

 

yes - you are right - If you had a team compiled of statistical leaders at every position and I had a normal team, there is no way I could beat you. It would make no difference if I had grittier, tougher, dirt doggier players who were all great leaders. You win - you sure got me good.

[dgalehouse]

The leadership should come from the leader. That would be the manager. Hopefully , Cora will bring the energy , enthusiasm and excitement that Farrell apparently had lost. I would think that was the reasoning behind the change in managers. And , hopefully , that will result in a better attitude and performance from the players. That is what I am expecting.

[Nick]

yes - you are right - If you had a team compiled of statistical leaders at every position and I had a normal team, there is no way I could beat you. It would make no difference if I had grittier, tougher, dirt doggier players who were all great leaders. You win - you sure got me good.

 

Maybe instead of wasting $25M on JD we should go look for a "leader".

[Kimmi]

I don't want to start that wholedebate again, but we had too many metal blunders (fielding & running) that had nothing to do with being aggressive or over aggressive.

 

I do not disagree that we had some blunders where a player just didn't have his head in the game. However, I think it is far fewer than some others think it is.

[cp176]

Maybe instead of wasting $25M on JD we should go look for a "leader".

 

Oh come on - stop that Nick - most of the time I'm with you! Also, maybe JD is a leader. As a matter of fact, i think that he is. What I don't think is that he wants to play for us.

[Kimmi]

So if we had a leader we 'can win 95 games'.

 

Funny thing is, we won 93 games last year without a leader.

 

So you think this great leader might make a difference of 2 whole games. Wow, that's really exciting.

 

I'm not really sure what this great team leader was supposed to do. Inspire the other players to work harder? Does anyone really think that our players were not working or trying hard enough? I see it as quite the opposite. I think they were trying too hard.

 

A team does not necessarily lack leadership because they don't have that guy who's going to be a vocal presence in the clubhouse. There are other ways to be a leader.

[Kimmi]

Former Yankee pitcher Esteban Loaiza has been arrested on felony drug charges.

 

Can anybody tell me Loaiza's big moment in Red Sox history, without looking it up?

 

No clue. You'll have to enlighten us.

[mvp 78]

No, he really was involved in a big moment in Red Sox history.

 

Losing ALCS game 5?

[Bellhorn04]

Losing ALCS game 5?

 

You got it. He surrendered that blooper to centre by Papi. He actually pitched pretty well in that game.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not really sure what this great team leader was supposed to do. Inspire the other players to work harder? Does anyone really think that our players were not working or trying hard enough? I see it as quite the opposite. I think they were trying too hard.

 

A team does not necessarily lack leadership because they don't have that guy who's going to be a vocal presence in the clubhouse. There are other ways to be a leader.

 

As far as being able to actually see signs that the team lacks leadership, the only one I would subscribe to is if the team looks like they're not hustling.

[moonslav59]

Maybe instead of wasting $25M on JD we should go look for a "leader".

 

JD scored a 100 on the last leadership quiz!

[moonslav59]

I do not disagree that we had some blunders where a player just didn't have his head in the game. However, I think it is far fewer than some others think it is.

 

Fielding:

Throwing to the wrong base.

Forgetting how many outs there are.

Not backing up bases or covering the right base.

 

Running:

Forgetting how many outs there are.

Running with your head down right into the runner ahead of you.

Running to 3B with a ball hit right in front of you (left-side IF), when you can see it's hopeless.

 

It was way more than "a few".

 

Now, the aggressive base running outweighed much of the blunders, if not more than outweighed it. Overall, out base running was a plus and our defense was a plus, but without the mental blunders, we'd have been much much better in both areas.

 

[cp176]

I'm not really sure what this great team leader was supposed to do. Inspire the other players to work harder? Does anyone really think that our players were not working or trying hard enough? I see it as quite the opposite. I think they were trying too hard.

 

A team does not necessarily lack leadership because they don't have that guy who's going to be a vocal presence in the clubhouse. There are other ways to be a leader.

 

I really don't think that it is about one player leading a team to the promised land. That would be ridiculous. It is a culture of change that happens because a group of good leaders believe that it needs to be changed. 93 wins means a lot. i agree but it isn't enough for me I guess. I don't agree with anyone here who doesn't think that good leadership is incredibly important. it has been called a 'straw man' arguement because it isn't quantifiable and that is all well and good. there are some things that just can't be explained or quantified. I'm ok with everyone who disagrees with me about this too.

[dgalehouse]

A good manager/supervisor/boss can make a difference in the performance of the employees in his/her charge. This is true in baseball , as it is in everything.