A Realistic View at 2018: Part I

[a700hitter]

A good manager/supervisor/boss can make a difference in the performance of the employees in his/her charge. This is true in baseball , as it is in everything.

Don’t you know that a stud hitter can’t make those around him better, managers don’t matter, lineup order doesnt matter, speed doesn’t put more pressure on pitchers and on and on. For the record, I agree that good leadership can make all the difference.

[cp176]

Don’t you know that a stud hitter can’t make those around him better, managers don’t matter, lineup order doesnt matter, speed doesn’t put more pressure on pitchers and on and on. For the record, I agree that good leadership can make all the difference.

 

Good!!!!!

[notin]

Yep. And I'm guessing that leadership is a quality that can't be explained with metrics. Your results may vary.

 

But can you explain it at all?

[notin]

Come on notin - Not everything in the world has to be supported by ******** statistics. There are actually people on here who don't think that it is necessary for the Sox to do anything and they will still be ok. I don't really give a fiddler's fart what you or anybody else thinks about the importance of leadership and team identity or any of the other mysterious things that can't be defined in the universe. I played - I coached more - therefore I believe in these things very much. A person's mental approach to the game may be much more important to what they can produce on the field than their physical attributes. You can doubt all of this good s*** all you want. It seems that you are in good company here to. Looks to me like having the home field advantage.

 

What does mental toughness have to go with leadership? Those are two mutually exclusive attributes. Not all leaders are mentally tough and not everyone who is mentally tough is a leader. ..

[S5Dewey]

But can you explain it at all?

 

Nope. It's called an "intangible".

 

Why do we have to be able to explain or quantify everything? Do we now ignore the obvious because it can't be explained?

[notin]

Nope. It's called an "intangible".

 

Why do we have to be able to explain or quantify everything? Do we now ignore the obvious because it can't be explained?

 

"Intangible" doesn't mean "can't be defined."

[cp176]

What does mental toughness have to go with leadership? Those are two mutually exclusive attributes. Not all leaders are mentally tough and not everyone who is mentally tough is a leader. ..

 

Here we go again right Notin. Is it possible that your concept of being mentally tough is different from mine? I think that is quite likely. Prove to me Notin and to all of the others who have coached and played who believe in the reality that all of these intangible things that are so important to athletic success don't exist. This really is a waste of time don't you think? We could do this dance forever.

[notin]

It clearly is different if you think mental toughness is the same as leadership.

 

Personally I don't think you can spot mental toughness by watching a game on TV and the best you can do is attribute positive results top to it. To me that says that if you don't get the results you want, that player is clearly not mentally tough.

 

So much like clutch, leadership and mental toughness clearly have no definition, and can only be spotted by people on this board who don't know what they are.

[Bellhorn04]

So much like clutch, leadership and mental toughness clearly have no definition, and can only be spotted by people on this board who don't know what they are.

 

I think the impact of these qualities in baseball is especially hard to prove because of the quirky nature of the game.

 

Now if it was football, would anyone really try to deny that Tom Brady has them?

[cp176]

It clearly is different if you think mental toughness is the same as leadership.

 

Personally I don't think you can spot mental toughness by watching a game on TV and the best you can do is attribute positive results top to it. To me that says that if you don't get the results you want, that player is clearly not mentally tough.

 

So much like clutch, leadership and mental toughness clearly have no definition, and can only be spotted by people on this board who don't know what they are.

 

I don't believe that I ever have said that mental toughness is the same thing as leadership. Some of the most mentally tough people that I have ever known were lousy leaders. I think that it is fairly clear that we approach most things athletic from a different perspective. It's ok. There is room for both of us.

[Bellhorn04]

A good manager/supervisor/boss can make a difference in the performance of the employees in his/her charge. This is true in baseball , as it is in everything.

 

I certainly wouldn't argue with this. But let's not get things confused here. Management and leadership can be 2 completely different things. Good managers can be completely behind the scenes, practically invisible.

 

I've been taking some issue with another poster's contention that the 2017 Red Sox, especially the hitters, suffered from a lack of leadership. When you start saying things like that, that's when you're really taking the next step with intangibles and just basically making stuff up that may not be true at all.

[S5Dewey]

"Intangible" doesn't mean "can't be defined."

 

It can be defined but my experience here is that my definition gets immediately rejected because it doesn't revolve around metrics. So I don't bother. I've been down that road too many times. People will believe what they believe and when their world revolves around metrics they're not going to be convinced of anything else. I'll continue to believe in things like "clutch" and "intangibles" and they won't, and I'm good with that.

[moonslav59]

Let's assume we are prepared to pay JD $25M x 5 years. Would this be a better way to spend that money? (Note the shorter term aspects and "spreading the risk" while maybe lowering the ceiling of reward.)

 

How would you spend the $25M? (using mlbtr numbers tweaked by me where noted)

 

$25M x 4 Arrieta

 

$15M x 3 Moustakas (mlbtr had $17M x 5)

 

$14M x 4 Lance Lynn

 

$12M x 4 Alex Cobb

 

$12M x 3 Logan Morrison (He might not get this much.)

 

$10M x 2 Andrew Cashner

 

$7M x 2 Eduardo Nunez

 

$5M x 2 Howie Kendrick (mlbtr has $6M x 2.)

 

$6M x 1 Lucas Duda

 

If I was give the $25M, I'd go with...

 

1st choice:

$12M Cobb

$7M Nunez

$6M Duda

 

2nd choice:

$12M Cobb

$12M Morrison

 

(Note: None are 5 year deals, so we add spending flex after a a year or a couple years.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[S5Dewey]

It clearly is different if you think mental toughness is the same as leadership.

 

Personally I don't think you can spot mental toughness by watching a game on TV and the best you can do is attribute positive results top to it. To me that says that if you don't get the results you want, that player is clearly not mentally tough.

 

So much like clutch, leadership and mental toughness clearly have no definition, and can only be spotted by people on this board who don't know what they are.

 

OMG that's condescending!!!

[notin]

It can be defined but my experience here is that my definition gets immediately rejected because it doesn't revolve around metrics. So I don't bother. I've been down that road too many times. People will believe what they believe and when their world revolves around metrics they're not going to be convinced of anything else. I'll continue to believe in things like "clutch" and "intangibles" and they won't, and I'm good with that.

 

That's a cop out. I even tried to provide a definition of clutch that didn't involve metrics. It was basically "performing better in key situations" but this was rejected because nothing could back any alleged clutch hitters performing do (although I also offered the only example I could think of - Pat Tabler)....

[Nick]

Don’t you know that a stud hitter can’t make those around him better, managers don’t matter, lineup order doesnt matter, speed doesn’t put more pressure on pitchers and on and on. For the record, I agree that good leadership can make all the difference.

 

Why do we need JD? Does he have leadership quality? How do you know?

 

How many leaders do you need on a team?

 

Can a guy be a leader one season but not the next?

 

Was Pedey ever a leader? Was he a leader when he threw his teammates under the bus? Is he still a leader? Or did we make a mistake that he was a leader when in fact he was not, just pretending to be one?

 

Does Boras ever ask for more money because a guy is a 'proven' leader?

 

Do you take a poll of players and see who is the leader?

 

Is it like God? You can't see it but you know it exists?

 

Is being a good teammate a prerequisite to being a leader?

 

Can you be a leader from day 1? Or do you become a leader after hitting .300 or winning 15 games as a pitcher?

 

Why don't you tell me who the leaders are on this Sox team. I will tell you if we have enough to win the Division.

Edited February 13, 2018 by Nick

[moonslav59]

I don't want to speak for 700, but I think he wads being sarcastic.

[S5Dewey]

Why do we need JD? Does he have leadership quality? How do you know?

 

How many leaders do you need on a team?

 

Can a guy be a leader one season but not the next?

 

Was Pedey ever a leader? Was he a leader when he threw his teammates under the bus? Is he still a leader? Or did we make a mistake that he was a leader when in fact he was not, just pretending to be one?

 

Does Boras ever ask for more money because a guy is a 'proven' leader?

 

Do you take a poll of players and see who is the leader?

 

Is it like God? You can't see it but you know it exists?

 

Is being a good teammate a prerequisite to being a leader?

 

Can you be a leader from day 1? Or do you become a leader after hitting .300 or winning 15 games as a pitcher?

 

Why don't you tell me who the leaders are on this Sox team. I will tell you if we have enough to win the Division.

 

Too many questions to answer here!! But here's my take on the last question, and it's maybe my biggest concern. The answer is "Nobody". Someone has to step up and be a leader and if nobody does this team is in trouble.

 

When I think about team leaders I think of guys like Josh Beckett. To other teams his attitude of "To beat this team you have to go through ME!" made him maybe the biggest dick of his time, but we as Sox fans loved it. Arrogant, cocky, brash, all those things that opposing fans hate.

And then came "chicken and beer", and the proof that a team leader can lead a team down the right path... or the wrong path. When the team went on the skids he because the de facto leader of the anti-establishment in the clubhouse and the team circled the drain.

[moonslav59]

Defining leadership is not easy. That doesn't mean it does not exist or is unimportant.

 

Without being in the clubhouse, it's hard for any of us to know if we lack leadership.

 

I'm hopeful Cora can provide what is needed, or some player(s) steps up or continues steering players in the right direction.

 

Can anyone name the best leader(s) on this years free agent market?

 

(Please, don't say Hosmer, or I'll bust a gut.)

[S5Dewey]

That's a cop out. I even tried to provide a definition of clutch that didn't involve metrics. It was basically "performing better in key situations" but this was rejected because nothing could back any alleged clutch hitters performing do (although I also offered the only example I could think of - Pat Tabler)....

 

How would one go about proving that someone is clutch without using metrics/statistics? Again, I maintain that it can't be proven and I'm good with that. As I said before, I'll continue to believe in clutch and intangibles because my experience has told me that they exist. Some people won't agree, and I don't mind in the least that we don't agree.

[Bellhorn04]

Defining leadership is not easy. That doesn't mean it does not exist or is unimportant.

 

Without being in the clubhouse, it's hard for any of us to know if we lack leadership.

 

I'm hopeful Cora can provide what is needed, or some player(s) steps up or continues steering players in the right direction.

 

Can anyone name the best leader(s) on this years free agent market?

 

(Please, don't say Hosmer, or I'll bust a gut.)

 

I read Joe Torre's book, God help me, and there was some semi-interesting stuff about the Yankees clubhouse. Torre basically said it's a big load off the manager's back if you have guys in the clubhouse who will sort of keep everyone in line, who will call somebody out for not hustling etc. I think the guys he mentioned as playing that role were Paul O'Neill and David Cone.

[S5Dewey]

Defining leadership is not easy. That doesn't mean it does not exist or is unimportant.

 

Without being in the clubhouse, it's hard for any of us to know if we lack leadership.

 

I'm hopeful Cora can provide what is needed, or some player(s) steps up or continues steering players in the right direction.

 

Can anyone name the best leader(s) on this years free agent market?

 

(Please, don't say Hosmer, or I'll bust a gut.)

 

IMHO it's hard to predict who a leader might be in 2018. I believe that a leader has to 'earn his stripes' through longevity and a willingness to put him self in the limelight. As much as I personally dislike this phrase, he has to "talk the talk AND walk the walk". He has to earn the respect of the players and then be willing to assume the mantle of "Leader".

 

A few from the fairly recent past:

 

Derek Jeter. As much as I dislike this guy - or rather what I know and see of him - he was the Consummate Yankee. He went on the field, played hard, and took no guff from anyone. And he did it for a long time. He was the face of the Yankees for many years and relished that role.

 

Jason Varitek. He earned the right to be team leader before this, but the day he stuck the glove in ARod's face he essentially said, "f*** you and f*** the Yankees", and the team would have followed him to Hell and back after that if necessary. That's leadership.

 

David Ortiz. He's the guy the younger players went to with questions about anything baseball. He was the leader and he knew it. He's the guy who said on television that "This is our f***ing city!" and it struck a chord with everyone. He's the guy who called a team meeting in the dugout between innings and inspired the team to dig a little deeper. (And I know that some believe that can't happen, but anyway....) That's leadership.

 

I've already posted about Josh Beckett and how I believe he led the team down the right path...and then the wrong one.

 

Right now I don't see anyone on this Red Sox team who's going to do that but I hope I'm wrong and someone does.

[moonslav59]

I read Joe Torre's book, God help me, and there was some semi-interesting stuff about the Yankees clubhouse. Torre basically said it's a big load off the manager's back if you have guys in the clubhouse who will sort of keep everyone in line, who will call somebody out for not hustling etc. I think the guys he mentioned as playing that role were Paul O'Neill and David Cone.

 

I definitely think having those types of players helps. I'm just not sure, if we do already or not. Maybe someone or a group of players are already doing that in the Sox clubhouse, but we don't know about it, or some players just aren't helped by it.

 

I didn't see much lack of hustling last year, but I did see a lot of lost or diminished focus, especially on D and on the base paths.

[moonslav59]

IMHO it's hard to predict who a leader might be in 2018. I believe that a leader has to 'earn his stripes' through longevity and a willingness to put him self in the limelight. As much as I personally dislike this phrase, he has to "talk the talk AND walk the walk". He has to earn the respect of the players and then be willing to assume the mantle of "Leader".

 

A few from the fairly recent past:

 

Derek Jeter. As much as I dislike this guy - or rather what I know and see of him - he was the Consummate Yankee. He went on the field, played hard, and took no guff from anyone. And he did it for a long time. He was the face of the Yankees for many years and relished that role.

 

Jason Varitek. He earned the right to be team leader before this, but the day he stuck the glove in ARod's face he essentially said, "f*** you and f*** the Yankees", and the team would have followed him to Hell and back after that if necessary. That's leadership.

 

David Ortiz. He's the guy the younger players went to with questions about anything baseball. He was the leader and he knew it. He's the guy who said on television that "This is our f***ing city!" and it struck a chord with everyone. He's the guy who called a team meeting in the dugout between innings and inspired the team to dig a little deeper. (And I know that some believe that can't happen, but anyway....) That's leadership.

 

I've already posted about Josh Beckett and how I believe he led the team down the right path...and then the wrong one.

 

Right now I don't see anyone on this Red Sox team who's going to do that but I hope I'm wrong and someone does.

 

I don't "see" one either, right now, but that doesn't mean we don't have one (or more).

 

I also think "leading by example" is important, and I'm not sure I'd give Papi an A in that area all the time. He often did not run our grounders, he stood and admired long HRs a little too much, and he griped now and then, but overall, I do think he was a plus in the "leadership" role. (Again, so hard to define in baseball- even harder to identify.)

 

I think Vaz or Bogey could step up. Betts & JBJ seem to quiet or introverteed (my guess). Maybe Moreland's continued service time in Boston will allow him to be more outspoken. Beni & Devers are too young.

 

It's hard for a pitcher to be a strong leader from the bullpen, but they can help in the clubhouse- Sale? Kimbrel? Porcello?

 

Pedey and Price are likely out as candidates.

[Bellhorn04]

It's hard for a pitcher to be a strong leader from the bullpen, but they can help in the clubhouse- Sale? Kimbrel? Porcello?

 

I've been reading some stuff about Sale that make him seem like a great teammate and citizen.

 

He made the trip to Puerto Rico with Cora and a few others to deliver supplies to hurricane victims.

He was doing some work with Jason Groome in the offseason.

[moonslav59]

I've been reading some stuff about Sale that make him seem like a great teammate and citizen.

 

He made the trip to Puerto Rico with Cora and a few others to deliver supplies to hurricane victims.

He was doing some work with Jason Groome in the offseason.

 

..but all some people remember was him cutting up his uniform.

 

(I do think Sale has the attitude to be a good leader.)

[sk7326]

One of the tricky things - as a fan ... is that leadership becomes media narrative as much as anything. The guys who talk to the press get conflated with the leaders.

 

I mean leadership in these setting is often not the "inches we seek are everywhere" sort of speeches. Leadership is the 1987 Celtics seeing how hard it was for Kevin McHale to put on his shoes as he was playing the Finals with a broken foot (a foot that progressively got worse).

 

In baseball, the manager can establish a working environment. As I maintain - a baseball manager is the most like a boss someone would have in a real-life job ... delegate, coach the coaches, yada yada

[moonslav59]

I'm not sure playing injured is "leadership." It is leading by example.

[sk7326]

I'm not sure playing injured is "leadership." It is leading by example.

 

That is leadership - and how players earn their stripes to actually be able to have the words matter.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not sure playing injured is "leadership." It is leading by example.

 

And of course, sometimes it's being stupid.