Rafael Devers

[a700hitter]

No Sox team under the current ownership should ever win just 78 games.

That's right. After 1967, the Red Sox did not have a season where they were under .500 for 17 seasons and the finished under .500 twice in 25 seasons. So, I will never give the organization an ataboy for a 78 win season, especially on the heels of 2 other last place finishes in 3 years. That was a horrible stretch where a lot of people lost interest in the team. I do feel that the team has not regained the fan enthusiasm it once had due to that horrible stretch.

[jacksonianmarch]

^^This.

 

Henry should have kept him at the helm for 2016 to see his plan through.

 

I'm willing to bet we would have still made the postseason with Ben as GM, and I think we'd currently have a better equipped farm system.

 

Ben was afraid to deal his farm. You have to be willing to part with your minor leaguers at some point. You keep some, you deal some. If Ben was still at the helm, you don't make the POs last year and you don't have a pitching staff this year.

[jacksonianmarch]

That's right. After 1967, the Red Sox did not have a season where they were under .500 for 17 seasons and the finished under .500 twice in 25 seasons. So, I will never give the organization an ataboy for a 78 win season, especially on the heels of 2 other last place finishes in 3 years. That was a horrible stretch where a lot of people lost interest in the team. I do feel that the team has not regained the fan enthusiasm it once had due to that horrible stretch.

 

The interest had risen coming into last season, but this year, it's just divebombed. With the sox changing to a less fan friendly roster construction (better pitching, inferior hitting) and the players acting like dicks, in not surprised the fans haven't flocked in and created major buzz

[mvp 78]

Ben inherited a mess. He made some big mistakes. The 4 you mentioned and several more.

 

DD inherited a better overall situation, because he had many top assets to trade- thanks to Ben and to a lesser extent, Theo.

 

When DD's era is over and a comparison is made, these aspects need to be taken into consideration.

 

This is just gaslighting. Ben inherited CC, that's it. DD inherited HanRam AND Pablo. Ben had the same amount of farm capital to start with that DD did.

[Yaz Fan Since 67]

This is just gaslighting. Ben inherited CC, that's it. DD inherited HanRam AND Pablo. Ben had the same amount of farm capital to start with that DD did.

 

Yeah I gotta go with what you said.

[mvp 78]

Unpopular Opinion Alert

 

The 2011 Sox were a good team. If they kept Theo and didn't hire BV, they wouldn't have had a fire sale in August 2012.

[Kimmi]

The fact that DD has used many of Ben's acquisitions to get us to where we have been since the start of 2016 has to count for something.

 

Of course it does. It counts for almost everything.

[mvp 78]

Of course it does. It counts for almost everything.

 

Why?

[Kimmi]

The 2015 team did win 78 games, which is a lot for last place team. In any other division in nesrly any other ywar , that record would not finish last

 

IMO, all a GM can do is assemble a team that looks good on paper, and that includes, non-stat views as well. In both 2014 and 2015, pretty much all the analysts and computer projections had us contending and/or winning the division. I don't think a GM can be blamed for the team not playing to expectations.

 

It's very similar to this year. If the team fails to make the postseason, it will not be Dombrowski's fault. He did his job in assembling this year's team.

[Kimmi]

Ben was afraid to deal his farm. You have to be willing to part with your minor leaguers at some point. You keep some, you deal some. If Ben was still at the helm, you don't make the POs last year and you don't have a pitching staff this year.

 

Ben was not afraid to deal his prospects. The time was not right to deal them until 2016 - 5 year plan. If Ben were still GM in 2016, he would have dealt some of them. We would also still have a strong farm because Ben would not have been as aggressive as Dave. He would have used more of a balance between short and long terms.

[Kimmi]

This is just gaslighting. Ben inherited CC, that's it. DD inherited HanRam AND Pablo. Ben had the same amount of farm capital to start with that DD did.

 

As Theo's right hand man, Ben was also a huge part of acquiring the farm system left to him under Theo's watch.

[Kimmi]

Unpopular Opinion Alert

 

The 2011 Sox were a good team. If they kept Theo and didn't hire BV, they wouldn't have had a fire sale in August 2012.

 

IMO, they should have kept both Theo and Tito. The team would have likely made the playoffs in 2012. Henry panicked, as he tends to do.

[mvp 78]

As Theo's right hand man, Ben was also a huge part of acquiring the farm system left to him under Theo's watch.

 

Ok, but I believe moon's point was that Ben had a much more difficult time fixing Theo's roster than DD will have fixing Ben's. I just don't agree with that at all. Ben got a perfectly fine roster and farm system. DD got a slightly better farm system, but a MLB team that was in the midst of back to back last place finishes.

[mvp 78]

IMO, they should have kept both Theo and Tito. The team would have likely made the playoffs in 2012. Henry panicked, as he tends to do.

 

I believe managers eventually have a shelf life. If the players were no longer willing to play for their "boss," they needed to find a new one. The only panic part of the move was grabbing Bobby V because they "needed" the polar opposite of Tito (I guess that meant a terrible manager, who has a bad track record and would tank an entire season for his own ego).

 

There's actually a nice conspiracy out there that the FO signed Bobby so that the players would revolt and the FO would be able to clean house. I'm 51/49 on that one. Not sure the FO has shown itself to be that forward thinking.

[Bellhorn04]

Ben has done great as a GM since leaving Boston.

[a700hitter]

Ben has done great as a GM since leaving Boston.

We should still be paying him on Commission less charge backs for Pablo, Rusney and Craig.

[Slasher9]

Ben was the ultimate #2 hitter in the lineup.

 

Hitting behind the runner, dropping sacrifice bunts, helping little old ladies cross streets.

 

Well that was the OLD thinking. No more sacrifice bunts, hitting behind to advance runners. #2 hitter should be our .......?

 

What the hell am I talking about? Focus, focus......

 

i believe our #2 hitter comes to bat with 1 out and no one on more than any other spot in the lineup.

[Slasher9]

We will see. The bar has been set very low by Ben.

 

you mean except for that parade?

let me know when DD gets us a top 5 farm and a parade at the same time.

i'll wait......

[a700hitter]

you mean except for that parade?

let me know when DD gets us a top 5 farm and a parade at the same time.

i'll wait......

I had already been to 2 parades, but never saw last place 3 times in 4 years, especially with a $200 million payroll. I am thankful for the championship. I was at game 6 -- the biggest in person sports thrill of my life. But taken as whole, Ben is awful and that is why he is now a coffee boy.

[Slasher9]

I had already been to 2 parades, but never saw last place 3 times in 4 years, especially with a $200 million payroll. I am thankful for the championship. I was at game 6 -- the biggest in person sports thrill of my life. But taken as whole, Ben is awful and that is why he is now a coffee boy.

 

all fair points. and effing jelly about game 6. that's awesome memory right there.

 

but it is also a fair point asking when/if DD gets us a top 5 farm and a parade. cause ben was at the helm for both those things happening for our beloved Red Sox. also, i would seriously take 3 last place finishes for a parade every 4th year. and i would especially take that over a wipeout in the division series and watching the farm go from top five to bottom 25%......

[a700hitter]

all fair points. and effing jelly about game 6. that's awesome memory right there.

 

but it is also a fair point asking when/if DD gets us a top 5 farm and a parade. cause ben was at the helm for both those things happening for our beloved Red Sox. also, i would seriously take 3 last place finishes for a parade every 4th year. and i would especially take that over a wipeout in the division series and watching the farm go from top five to bottom 25%......

We have won 3 Championships in 10 years, but I am not sure I would want to take 3 last place finishes for each Championship from this point on. Those last place finishes age you in dog years. They are excruciating for someone like me that watches every game. Three lost springs and summers for an hour of Champagne? I don't think it is a slam dunk that i take that deal, but that is just me. And it doesn't work like that as far as the guarantee. Everything had to go right that season. We were not that great of a talented team. I can remember telling my friend at game 6 that I wanted to soak to all in for as long as possible, because I was expecting a 4th place finish the following year. Who knew that I was being optimistic.

[bosoxmal]

I think a new Decers thread should be started. Wade through seceral pages of piddor paddy and see very little about the next Red Sox MVP. Doesn't anybody see what I see?

[mvp 78]

I think a new Decers thread should be started. Wade through seceral pages of piddor paddy and see very little about the next Red Sox MVP. Doesn't anybody see what I see?

 

All I see is a panic move. He should still be getting reps in AAA if mgmt thinks he's not ready.

[notin]

We have won 3 Championships in 10 years, [I]but I am not sure I would want to take 3 last place finishes for each Championship from this point on. [/i] Those last place finishes age you in dog years. They are excruciating for someone like me that watches every game. Three lost springs and summers for an hour of Champagne? I don't think it is a slam dunk that i take that deal, but that is just me. And it doesn't work like that as far as the guarantee. Everything had to go right that season. We were not that great of a talented team. I can remember telling my friend at game 6 that I wanted to soak to all in for as long as possible, because I was expecting a 4th place finish the following year. Who knew that I was being optimistic.

 

 

 

Yet most of us recall it wasn't so long ago we only wanted to see one before we die. My dad only saw one...

[moonslav59]

I suffered through over 30 years of near misses and stinky seasons.

 

I'll take 3 rings and 3 last place finishes every 13 years over 30 straight years of futility. (Not that those are the only two choices.)

[Larry Cook]

Oh by the way, devers had 4 hits tonight! Hello, this is what we should be talking about.

[vjcsmoke]

All I see is a panic move. He should still be getting reps in AAA if mgmt thinks he's not ready.

 

A panic move? Devers was the best option we had.

 

Yes selling Travis Shaw was a big mistake.

 

But Devers has been anything BUT a mistake since coming up to the BIGS.

 

Homerun with his first big league hit. First Red Sock to do that since Tony C in 65.

 

Currently sporting a whopping 1.2 OPS after a big 4 hit night that helped power us to another win, this time over the Guardians.

 

Red Sox were STAGNANT before calling up the kid.

 

Devers could be exactly the shot in the arm the Red Sox need.

 

Yes, he is currently the YOUNGEST player in the SHOW this season. But if you're talented enough to play, you're talented enough to play. PERIOD.

[a700hitter]

Yet most of us recall it wasn't so long ago we only wanted to see one before we die. My dad only saw one...

I do remember those days, and back then, I might have made that deal if such a deal could be made. The hypothetical is itself is ridiculous. Going back to the days when I gladly would have made that ridiculously unreal hypothetical deal, I had never experienced three last place finishes in four years. Winning a championship is glorious fun and the glow lasts into the following season. Finishing last is an excruciating daily ordeal for 6 months. Trading one year of glory for 3 years of suffering is something that I don't want to live through after having experienced both ends of the spectrum.

[Spudboy]

A panic move? Devers was the best option we had.

 

Yes selling Travis Shaw was a big mistake.

 

But Devers has been anything BUT a mistake since coming up to the BIGS.

 

Homerun with his first big league hit. First Red Sock to do that since Tony C in 65.

 

Currently sporting a whopping 1.2 OPS after a big 4 hit night that helped power us to another win, this time over the Guardians.

 

Red Sox were STAGNANT before calling up the kid.

 

Devers could be exactly the shot in the arm the Red Sox need.

 

Yes, he is currently the YOUNGEST player in the SHOW this season. But if you're talented enough to play, you're talented enough to play. PERIOD.

 

MVP was being sarcastic. He has been lobbying to promote Devers for weeks. Look at his sig.

 

Try to keep up.

[Spudboy]

I do remember those days, and back then, I might have made that deal if such a deal could be made. The hypothetical is itself is ridiculous. Going back to the days when I gladly would have made that ridiculously unreal hypothetical deal, I had never experienced three last place finishes in four years. Winning a championship is glorious fun and the glow lasts into the following season. Finishing last is an excruciating daily ordeal for 6 months. Trading one year of glory for 3 years of suffering is something that I don't want to live through after having experienced both ends of the spectrum.

 

Yes.

 

And to add to what you have said there is absolutely no reason why you should have to tolerate last place finishes at all ( except in the most extreme of circumstances ) with the money in this organization. This team should be at the very least competitive most if not every year.

 

I doubt very much if the Sox finish first, proceed through the post season and then lose in game 7 or the series to a great team in a close game that you will be pissed Or even if the Sox play well all season but just fall short in a tight race. You will be disappointed for sure. But you won't be doing much complaining.