Red Sox Trade Deadline 2017 Thread

[Nick]

We had a 6-5 high school shortstop couple of years ago. Kids are bigger today. Except for Red Sox. We like little fielders and tall pitchers.

[Larry Cook]

We had a 6-5 high school shortstop couple of years ago. Kids are bigger today. Except for Red Sox. We like little fielders and tall pitchers.

 

Little infielders are generally quicker with a great first step.

 

We seem to like tall pitchers but developing them seems to befuddle us.

[cp176]

Little fellas help big fellas win games. Guess I would take EE's 6'1"-230 and be quite happy with it.

[Slasher9]

Ill take all the Mookie Betts and Jose Altuve's of the world. Height really doesn't matter that much.

 

sure. but not at first base.

[S5Dewey]

sure. but not at first base.

 

I agree completely with this. I may have said this before, but as a former infielder who had a 1B who was 6'10", knowing all I had to do was get the ball somewhere near 1B and it would be caught took all the pressure off the throw in a close situation.

 

In addition, he was also a foot (or more) closer to me when catching my throws than would someone who's 6' tall be. That doesn't sound like much in an amateur league but it can be all the difference in a MLB play that's reviewed.

[Kimmi]

and that's not much of a plan.

 

Well, I give him credit for putting together a very strong team for the immediate future. There are times that I think this FO makes some rash moves, however. Some have worked out, some have not.

[Jack Flap]

I'm not the biggest DD fan in the world, but he's a shrewder trader than he's often given credit for. At both the 2016 and 2017 deadlines he held his fire rather than pushing for a larger move because the right trade wasn't out there (in the former case, waiting until the offseason to get his target, Sale, when the price was less extreme). Dealing Espinoza for Pomeranz currently looks like a winning bet (although I'm still hopeful for Espinoza's long-term future), as does keeping Devers over Moncada. There were reports previously that the White Sox wanted Bryan Mata in the Sale trade talks and Dombrowski refused to include him, despite his then being a 17-year-old who had only pitched in the DSL and wasn't on most people's radars.

 

Our prospect list has certainly taken a hit, but how many of the guys we traded will actually end up coming back to bite us remains to be seen. Right now trading Travis Shaw looks like the only outright blunder...but again, time will tell.

[Kimmi]

I'm not the biggest DD fan in the world, but he's a shrewder trader than he's often given credit for. At both the 2016 and 2017 deadlines he held his fire rather than pushing for a larger move because the right trade wasn't out there (in the former case, waiting until the offseason to get his target, Sale, when the price was less extreme). Dealing Espinoza for Pomeranz currently looks like a winning bet (although I'm still hopeful for Espinoza's long-term future), as does keeping Devers over Moncada. There were reports previously that the White Sox wanted Bryan Mata in the Sale trade talks and Dombrowski refused to include him, despite his then being a 17-year-old who had only pitched in the DSL and wasn't on most people's radars.

 

Our prospect list has certainly taken a hit, but how many of the guys we traded will actually end up coming back to bite us remains to be seen. Right now trading Travis Shaw looks like the only outright blunder...but again, time will tell.

 

Dombrowski is a smart baseball man. I have never denied that. I don't like his aggressive win now philosophy, as I have always considered a strong farm system to be the top priority.

 

For me, the issue is not in who he traded away, and the idea that they would have been blocked here anyway, or that they may never pan out. They are still valuable trade chips. The issue for me is the magnitude of the prospects traded and not getting full value in return.

[a700hitter]

The issue for me is the magnitude of the prospects traded and not getting full value in return.

How much better do you want the trade targets to be than Chris Sale and Craig Kimbrel? Goodness, your standards are high.

[cp176]

I'm not the biggest DD fan in the world, but he's a shrewder trader than he's often given credit for. At both the 2016 and 2017 deadlines he held his fire rather than pushing for a larger move because the right trade wasn't out there (in the former case, waiting until the offseason to get his target, Sale, when the price was less extreme). Dealing Espinoza for Pomeranz currently looks like a winning bet (although I'm still hopeful for Espinoza's long-term future), as does keeping Devers over Moncada. There were reports previously that the White Sox wanted Bryan Mata in the Sale trade talks and Dombrowski refused to include him, despite his then being a 17-year-old who had only pitched in the DSL and wasn't on most people's radars.

 

Our prospect list has certainly taken a hit, but how many of the guys we traded will actually end up coming back to bite us remains to be seen. Right now trading Travis Shaw looks like the only outright blunder...but again, time will tell.

 

Although I am probably a bigger fan of DD's than yours, I appreciate very much that are valuing what he has and is trying to do. Being in his position in a Boston market, it is quite a balancing act. His job yearly is to put a team on the field that can compete at the highest level year in and year out. I haven't agreed with everything that he has or has not done, I still think that he has built a very competitive team without mortgaging the future. I am looking forward to a long successful run like we have had minus a few hiccups since 1967.

[oldtimer]

Although I am probably a bigger fan of DD's than yours, I appreciate very much that are valuing what he has and is trying to do. Being in his position in a Boston market, it is quite a balancing act. His job yearly is to put a team on the field that can compete at the highest level year in and year out. I haven't agreed with everything that he has or has not done, I still think that he has built a very competitive team without mortgaging the future. I am looking forward to a long successful run like we have had minus a few hiccups since 1967.

 

About the only major deal which DD pulled off which looks questionable at this point is Price, although even that may work out better with some luck. Thornburg was unlucky as was Smith and the hope is we get something next year from those guys.

[moonslav59]

About the only major deal which DD pulled off which looks questionable at this point is Price, although even that may work out better with some luck. Thornburg was unlucky as was Smith and the hope is we get something next year from those guys.

 

Then couldn't we call Crawford, Pablo and HRam "unlucky"?

[Kimmi]

Then couldn't we call Crawford, Pablo and HRam "unlucky"?

 

Pablo and Crawford were bad deals to begin with, but yes, the team was unlucky with both players in that they did not live up to their contracts in the early years, much less make it to the latter years. Neither one of them should have been as bad as they turned out.

 

I've never had a problem with Hanley's contract and still don't.

[Bellhorn04]

Then couldn't we call Crawford, Pablo and HRam "unlucky"?

 

Not a very good comparison with Thornburg and Smith where the unlucky part is injuries.

[fxkatt]

Little infielders are generally quicker with a great first step.

 

We seem to like tall pitchers but developing them seems to befuddle us.

 

"Befuddle" is correct, but I think it may be close to a vast understatement. Clemons, Lester, and Lonborg are the only three (from my time) that I can recall. Nor can I think of any of our own we traded off young who then starred on another team.

 

And Lonborg ended up becoming a dentist.

[Bellhorn04]

"Befuddle" is correct, but I think it may be close to a vast understatement. Clemons, Lester, and Lonborg are the only three (from my time) that I can recall. Nor can I think of any of our own we traded off young who then starred on another team.

 

Schilling.

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski is a smart baseball man. I have never denied that. I don't like his aggressive win now philosophy, as I have always considered a strong farm system to be the top priority.

 

For me, the issue is not in who he traded away, and the idea that they would have been blocked here anyway, or that they may never pan out. They are still valuable trade chips. The issue for me is the magnitude of the prospects traded and not getting full value in return.

 

Yes indeed.

 

Yes, we still have Devers, Groome, Chavis and Mata, but in DD's short time here, these are the prospects traded away. While it's true some have lost value since the trade, and much of their value at the time of the trades were "speculative", they held value nonetheless.

 

Highest ranking according to soxprospects.com:

 

1 Moncada (Sale)

3 Margot (Kimbrel)

3 Espinoza (Pomeranz)

3 Cecchini (Cash)-had fallen way down before trade

5 Kopech (Sale)

6 Guerra (Kimbrel)

7 Basabe (Sale)

9 Dubon (Thornburg)

9 Longhi (Int'l bonus space)

12 T Shaw (Thornburg)-not a prospect when traded

12 W Rijo (A Hill)

13 Allen (Kimbrel)

13 Light (Abad)

18 Basabe (Ziegler)

18 Callahan (AReed)

20 Asuaje (Kimbrel)

20 Bautista (A Reed)

20 Nogosek (A Reed)

21 V Diaz (Sale)

21 J Aro (wtih Wade Miley for C Smith & R Elias)

24 Pennington (Thornburg)

30 A Wilkerson (A Hill)

40 Almonte (Ziegler)

n/a G Santos (A Reed)

 

DD got some top talent for these guys, but the sheer number trades is mind-boggling.

[moonslav59]

Schilling.

 

Jorge de la Rosa

Anibal Sanchez

There's maybe more

[Bellhorn04]

Yes indeed.

 

Yes, we still have Devers, Groome, Chavis and Mata, but in DD's short time here, these are the prospects traded away. While it's true some have lost value since the trade, and much of their value at the time of the trades were "speculative", they held value nonetheless.

 

Highest ranking according to soxprospects.com:

 

1 Moncada (Sale)

3 Margot (Kimbrel)

3 Espinoza (Pomeranz)

3 Cecchini (Cash)-had fallen way down before trade

5 Kopech (Sale)

6 Guerra (Kimbrel)

7 Basabe (Sale)

9 Dubon (Thornburg)

9 Longhi (Int'l bonus space)

12 T Shaw (Thornburg)-not a prospect when traded

12 W Rijo (A Hill)

13 Allen (Kimbrel)

13 Light (Abad)

18 Basabe (Ziegler)

18 Callahan (AReed)

20 Asuaje (Kimbrel)

20 Bautista (A Reed)

20 Nogosek (A Reed)

21 V Diaz (Sale)

21 J Aro (wtih Wade Miley for C Smith & R Elias)

24 Pennington (Thornburg)

30 A Wilkerson (A Hill)

40 Almonte (Ziegler)

n/a G Santos (A Reed)

 

DD got some top talent for these guys, but the sheer number trades is mind-boggling.

 

Arguably he was forced into the majority of these moves by the poor condition of the pitching staff he inherited.

[moonslav59]

Jorge de la Rosa

Anibal Sanchez

There's maybe more

 

Some are borderline "starring" for someone else, but some had at least a year or two of stardom or near stardom (maybe a stretch on some)...

Don Aase

Rafael Betancourt

John Tudor

Bob Ojeda

Paul Quantrill

Aaron Sele

Jeff Supan

Carl Pavano

John Papelbon

Cla Meredith

Stephen Fife

Alex Wilson

Felix Doubront

 

 

Edited August 3, 2017 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Arguably he was forced into the majority of these moves by the poor condition of the pitching staff he inherited.

 

Without a doubt, and I have never been against making bold multi-prospect moves for guys like Sale.

 

I'm just showing the "magnitude" of quantity (more than quality, I might add).

[jacksonianmarch]

Schilling.

 

Bagwell, Ruth, Moyer

[moonslav59]

Bagwell, Ruth, Moyer

 

I think the context was pitchers, so Bagwell wouldn't count.

 

Homegrown talent, so Moyer doesn't count.

 

In his lifetime, so Ruth doesn't count.

[Bellhorn04]

Hurst and Tudor, further down the ranks.

[cp176]

Then couldn't we call Crawford, Pablo and HRam "unlucky"?

 

moon really - this is not the real you. This thread isn't about gaining points for supporting the GM of your choice. who cares whose deals were better? ok - maybe I know the answer to my question but this isn't about GMs. You are are fan of the Sox just like I am. GM's come and go - players come and go and we are still here. I care a lot more about the players than I do about the GMs and the announcers and so do you. At the times of the 3 deals that you brought up, the only one I was opposed to was Ramirez. Imagine that! He is still here. lol I'm a fan and I will support him because it looks to me as though he understands the importance of being competitive year after year after year ..... but when he is gone someone will take his place and I will still be here. i have a very healthy heart- you will be here as well. Maybe we need a "Dan Duquette wasn't too bad either" thread.

[moonslav59]

moon really - this is not the real you. This thread isn't about gaining points for supporting the GM of your choice. who cares whose deals were better? ok - maybe I know the answer to my question but this isn't about GMs. You are are fan of the Sox just like I am. GM's come and go - players come and go and we are still here. I care a lot more about the players than I do about the GMs and the announcers and so do you. At the times of the 3 deals that you brought up, the only one I was opposed to was Ramirez. Imagine that! He is still here. lol I'm a fan and I will support him because it looks to me as though he understands the importance of being competitive year after year after year ..... but when he is gone someone will take his place and I will still be here. i have a very healthy heart- you will be here as well. Maybe we need a "Dan Duquette wasn't too bad either" thread.

 

Fair enough.

 

I liked the HRam deal, too. My "unlucky" comment was not meant to bash the GM. I actually meant it the opposite way as a response to another post.

 

I hated the CC and Pablo deals, with both the GMs had valid explanations/reasons for the signings.

 

I'm not against DD. I disliked some deals just as I disliked some by Ben, and I thought Ben deserved another year at the helm. Some of the DD deals I disliked are looking good (POM). Some I liked (C Smith & Thornburg) are not. I loved the Sale trade from the first second, in fact I had been drooling over Sale for years. I'm glad DD went for a ring, but in general, I feel he sacrificed a bit too much of the extended future to do so. I know many disagree, and I'm fine with that.

 

I may seem like I'm keeping score (tracking right/wrong points), but I've never said I'm better than any GM we have ever had.

 

I'm opinionated like many of us. I care about the players more than the GM, too, and I've defended our GMs often. On boards like this, talking about GM activities seems to take the front seat more often than it probably should, but I guess that might just be the nature of the beast.

 

[Slasher9]

Clay buchholz

[Kimmi]

DD got some top talent for these guys, but the sheer number trades is mind-boggling.

 

The sheer numbers in an extremely short period of time.

[mvp 78]

The sheer numbers in an extremely short period of time.

 

Yeah, I'd rather not have Sale or Kimbrel.

[a700hitter]

Yes indeed.

 

Yes, we still have Devers, Groome, Chavis and Mata, but in DD's short time here, these are the prospects traded away. While it's true some have lost value since the trade, and much of their value at the time of the trades were "speculative", they held value nonetheless.

 

Highest ranking according to soxprospects.com:

 

1 Moncada (Sale)

3 Margot (Kimbrel)

3 Espinoza (Pomeranz)

3 Cecchini (Cash)-had fallen way down before trade

5 Kopech (Sale)

6 Guerra (Kimbrel)

7 Basabe (Sale)

9 Dubon (Thornburg)

9 Longhi (Int'l bonus space)

12 T Shaw (Thornburg)-not a prospect when traded

12 W Rijo (A Hill)

13 Allen (Kimbrel)

13 Light (Abad)

18 Basabe (Ziegler)

18 Callahan (AReed)

20 Asuaje (Kimbrel)

20 Bautista (A Reed)

20 Nogosek (A Reed)

21 V Diaz (Sale)

21 J Aro (wtih Wade Miley for C Smith & R Elias)

24 Pennington (Thornburg)

30 A Wilkerson (A Hill)

40 Almonte (Ziegler)

n/a G Santos (A Reed)

 

DD got some top talent for these guys, but the sheer number trades is mind-boggling.

So for this pile of ... prospects we got the best pitcher in baseball Chris Sale whose salary is $5 million a year less than Pablo's contracts. We got the best closer in Kimbrel and our current #2 starter for this season (and an All Star in 2016) Drew Pomeranz. What more do you want to get for this pile?

 

They can replenish this most of this pile quite easily over the next couple of years with some smart scouting in the US and internationally.