Sox hitting??

[moonslav59]

Hanley had a great second half last year. If he got injured, when did it happen?

 

It's all conjecture, you must admit.

 

This is from June 2017 (long after the announcement about HRam being "only a DH"):

 

 

 

HOUSTON — Even with only a few inches separating the muscle groups, Red Sox manager John Farrell said he does not believe Hanley Ramirez’ sore neck is related to his lingering shoulder problems, and he doesn’t believe it’s related to the trapezius injury that sidelined the slugger earlier this season.

 

“This is a separate item,” Farrell said.

 

Note the "lingering shoulder problems" statement.

[moonslav59]

Hanley has been having a lot of trouble with upper echelon fast balls. He was completely overpowered and destroyed by Chapman that night Devers hit the HR. He has had reported tightness in his side. That can't be helping things. He just has not gotten into a groove like he did last year in the second half and time is running out.

 

He's had shoulder, neck and more recently "oblique" issues that all forced missing games.

[Bellhorn04]

He's had shoulder, neck and more recently "oblique" issues that all forced missing games.

 

He hasn't missed much time in all though.

[a700hitter]

Our lineup is pathetic. Do we have any regular with an OPS over .800? Pathetic.

[moonslav59]

Our lineup is pathetic. Do we have any regular with an OPS over .800? Pathetic.

 

...but we have no BLACK HOLES!

 

No FT'er under .715.

 

LOL

[moonslav59]

He hasn't missed much time in all though.

 

Yes, my point has been he is playing hurt.

 

Perhaps he's pushing himself, so he vests his option. Perhaps he has a better attitude than some give him credit for, and is playing while in pain. He has not started 25 of 129 games.

 

Perhaps not.

Edited August 27, 2017 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, my point has been he is playing hurt.

 

Perhaps he's pushing himself, so he vests his option. Perhaps he has a better attitude than some give him credit for, and is playing while in pain.

 

Perhaps not.

 

The question is whether any of these issues are affecting him significantly.

 

But yes, there are many possibilities.

[oldtimer]

...but we have no BLACK HOLES!

 

No FT'er under .715.

 

LOL

 

For the second half split hanley is doing a whopping 644.

[moonslav59]

For the second half split hanley is doing a whopping 644.

 

No doubt, he has been "off" for quite a while.

 

As well as the Sox have done, the whole team is batting 46 points lower than the first half (.759 to .713).

Listed in order of 1st half PAs (170+)

1st half> 2nd half

Betts .841> .652 (-189)

Beni .803> .753 (-50)

Bogey .806> .617 (-189)

Morel .790> .747 (-43)

Pedey .779> .807 (+28)

HRam .794> .677 (-117)

J B Jr. .853> .622 (-231)

Vazq .660> .828 (+168)

Young .725> .801 (+76)

Leon .672> .650 (-22)

 

No doubt, HRam has struggled, but Betts, Bogey & JBJ have declined by more than HRam, and they're on the upside of their careers.

 

 

 

[oldtimer]

No doubt, he has been "off" for quite a while.

 

As well as the Sox have done, the whole team is batting 46 points lower than the first half (.759 to .713).

Listed in order of 1st half PAs (170+)

1st half> 2nd half

Betts .841> .652 (-189)

Beni .803> .753 (-50)

Bogey .806> .617 (-189)

Morel .790> .747 (-43)

Pedey .779> .807 (+28)

HRam .794> .677 (-117)

J B Jr. .853> .622 (-231)

Vazq .660> .828 (+168)

Young .725> .801 (+76)

Leon .672> .650 (-22)

 

No doubt, HRam has struggled, but Betts, Bogey & JBJ have declined by more than HRam, and they're on the upside of their careers.

 

 

 

 

Okay, you gave us the stats, now give us your thoughts about the causes.

[Examiner]

We have hitting? I've been saying it most of the year, this team does not have what it takes. Just like last years team (that I said in April was going nowhere), they do just enough to tease you. Just ask yourself if the 2013 team would have been swept at home and held to 4 runs in three games in late August by a bottom feeder with no pitching? You know the answer. This team will do nothing but get knocked out in the first round, if they even make it in.

[moonslav59]

Okay, you gave us the stats, now give us your thoughts about the causes.

 

Maybe there is no cause. Maybe it's just happen stance.

 

Players go up and down, and sometimes it happens all together.

 

I'm hopeful for an upturn at the right time. No data. No root causes.

 

We have a very very good team. We don't look like one right this second in time, but that doesn't change the fact that we still are a very very good team. At least that's how I look at it.

 

I'm kind of wondering why every time we lose, the HRam boo-birds come out. I realize his numbers with men on base are down this year, but it hasn't always been like that, and I see no reason to think the "cause" is some deep seated negative personality trait he posses...or others on the team as well.

 

Missing Papi has made a difference...IMO not so much because of lost "protection". We're on pace for scoring about the same as last year minus the differential between Papi and Moreland's run production.

 

Just about the rest of the league have leap-frogged us on offense, but our pitching looks better in an era of massive offensive improvement, so that has to count for something.

 

I've always felt games and championships are won largely on pitching.

[OH FOY]

There is no Boo-Birds when a Clean-up batter is hitting .193 with RISP, it just doesn't make Common Sense. It's Counter-Productive. You bat your better batters on top of the order, so they can die on base. Makes no sense.

He's not doing his job, which is to drive in runs, just like any job, if your below standard, you look for someone who can do it.

Edited August 27, 2017 by OH FOY!

[Maxbialystock]

No doubt, he has been "off" for quite a while.

 

As well as the Sox have done, the whole team is batting 46 points lower than the first half (.759 to .713).

Listed in order of 1st half PAs (170+)

1st half> 2nd half

Betts .841> .652 (-189)

Beni .803> .753 (-50)

Bogey .806> .617 (-189)

Morel .790> .747 (-43)

Pedey .779> .807 (+28)

HRam .794> .677 (-117)

J B Jr. .853> .622 (-231)

Vazq .660> .828 (+168)

Young .725> .801 (+76)

Leon .672> .650 (-22)

 

No doubt, HRam has struggled, but Betts, Bogey & JBJ have declined by more than HRam, and they're on the upside of their careers.

 

 

 

 

Boy you are good. Those are stunning numbers. Well done.

 

But, as you should be reminding me, let's not forget that, until these 4 losses, the 2d half team as a whole has done way better than the 1st half team. Before the ASG, the Sox were 11 games above .500. Before these 4 games, they were 20 games above .500. What's missing from those numbers, obviously, are Nunez and Devers.

[moonslav59]

There is no Boo-Birds when a Clean-up batter is hitting .193 with RISP, it just doesn't make Common Sense. It's Counter-Productive. You bat your better batters on top of the order, so they can die on base. Makes no sense.

He's not doing his job, which is to drive in runs, just like any job, if your below standard, you look for someone who can do it.

 

I'm not saying HRam doesn't deserve some criticism.

 

I'm just saying all I hear is Hram this and Hram that.

 

How about wondering why HRam and Moreland keep being put up 4th, when so many other players have better numbers?

 

HRam doesn't make out the line-up cards.

 

FYI, HRam frustrates the hell out of me, too.

 

[moonslav59]

Boy you are good. Those are stunning numbers. Well done.

 

But, as you should be reminding me, let's not forget that, until these 4 losses, the 2d half team as a whole has done way better than the 1st half team. Before the ASG, the Sox were 11 games above .500. Before these 4 games, they were 20 games above .500. What's missing from those numbers, obviously, are Nunez and Devers.

 

Yes, and a damn good pitching staff and defense have been carrying us. We've also had better timely hitting until 4 days ago.

 

I will say, I do not think these bad 2nd half offensive numbers will continue.

 

Even if it does, we can still win.... harder but possible.

[fxkatt]

There are no Red Sox hitters in the top 80 (Majors) OPS.

 

Hanley has 49 rbi, Sandy Leon with just over 200 at bats in the eighth hole has 36.

 

I still think we need a DH who can also play an average left field (5th outfielder). Maybe a power switch-hitter would be nice.

[Maxbialystock]

There is no Boo-Birds when a Clean-up batter is hitting .193 with RISP, it just doesn't make Common Sense. It's Counter-Productive. You bat your better batters on top of the order, so they can die on base. Makes no sense.

He's not doing his job, which is to drive in runs, just like any job, if your below standard, you look for someone who can do it.

 

I don't think it's that simple. I looked at the splits of the top 7 rbi guys in the lineup: Betts, Beni, Moreland, JBJ, Pedroia, Bogie, and HanRam--in that order. What the splits say are: Betts is far better in the first three slots than 4th, ditto Beni. Moreland is OK 4th or 5th, but not a standout, plus he has problems hitting lefty pitchers. JBJ absolutely can't hit well anywhere but in the bottom 4 slots, where he has been pretty good overall (average OPS over .800). Pedroia is best batting 2d or 3d, this year anyway. Bogie is decent anywhere but 4th. HanRam, bad as he is, has OPS's as good as anyone else batting 4th or 5th. Devers, with 20 runs, 17 rbi's and 8 dingers in 28 games, just might be the best of the bunch, but he is a dead ringer for JBJ--he is way better in the 6th thru 9th slots.

 

I completely agree we need a better clean-up and a better guy in the 5th slot, but so far HanRam and Moreland get those jobs by default.

 

In the roughly 15 years of the John Henry era, I can think of only two really good hitters it clean up slot--Manny and Papi. No surprise that both were on the WS winners of 2004 and 2007--and Ortiz on the 2013 winners. I think Devers could be that good next year or the year after. If Pedroia were healthy, I'd be tempted to bat him 4th because in the past he was good at it--he likes that pressure. I think HanRam thrived last year because he mostly hit before or after Papi.

Edited August 27, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[moonslav59]

I don't think it's that simple. I looked at the splits of the top 7 rbi guys in the lineup: Betts, Beni, Moreland, JBJ, Pedroia, Bogie, and HanRam--in that order. What the splits say are: Betts is far better in the first three slots than 4th, ditto Beni. Moreland is OK 4th or 5th, but not a standout, plus he has problems hitting lefty pitchers. JBJ absolutely can't hit well anywhere but in the bottom 4 slots, where he has been pretty good overall (average OPS over .800). Pedroia is best batting 2d or 3d, this year anyway. Bogie is decent anywhere but 4th. HanRam, bad as he is, has OPS's as good as anyone else batting 4th or 5th. Devers, with 20 runs, 17 rbi's and 8 dingers in 28 games, just might be the best of the bunch, but he is a dead ringer for JBJ--he is way better in the 6th thru 9th slots.

 

I completely agree we need a better clean-up and a better guy in the 5th slot, but so far HanRam and Moreland get those jobs by default.

 

Betts has barely batted 4th, so we can't make any assumptions about that split.

 

Devers did great batting 3rd in the minors. I'd bat him or Betts 4th. When Pedey and JBJ were hot, they could have batted 4th. Even Beni is a better choice than HRam and Moreland. (Bogey should have batted 1st or 2nd hen he was hot.)

 

 

vs RHPs

1. Nunez

2. Beni

3. Betts

4. Devers

5. Pedey

6. JBJ

7. Bogey

8. Moreland

9. Vaz/Leon

 

vs LHPs

1. Nunez

2. Bogey

3. Pedey

4. Betts

5. HRam

6. Devers

7. Young

8. Beni

9. Vaz/Leon

 

[moonslav59]

I don't think it's that simple. I looked at the splits of the top 7 rbi guys in the lineup: Betts, Beni, Moreland, JBJ, Pedroia, Bogie, and HanRam--in that order. What the splits say are: Betts is far better in the first three slots than 4th, ditto Beni. Moreland is OK 4th or 5th, but not a standout, plus he has problems hitting lefty pitchers. JBJ absolutely can't hit well anywhere but in the bottom 4 slots, where he has been pretty good overall (average OPS over .800). Pedroia is best batting 2d or 3d, this year anyway. Bogie is decent anywhere but 4th. HanRam, bad as he is, has OPS's as good as anyone else batting 4th or 5th. Devers, with 20 runs, 17 rbi's and 8 dingers in 28 games, just might be the best of the bunch, but he is a dead ringer for JBJ--he is way better in the 6th thru 9th slots.

 

I completely agree we need a better clean-up and a better guy in the 5th slot, but so far HanRam and Moreland get those jobs by default.

 

In the roughly 15 years of the John Henry era, I can think of only two really good hitters it clean up slot--Manny and Papi. No surprise that both were on the WS winners of 2004 and 2007--and Ortiz on the 2013 winners. I think Devers could be that good next year or the year after. If Pedroia were healthy, I'd be tempted to bat him 4th because in the past he was good at it--he likes that pressure. I think HanRam thrived last year because he mostly hit before or after Papi.

 

Betts career splits:

 

.866 4th

.852 8th

.848 1st

 

He has 4 PAs batting 4th this year, and that's what you are basing your position on?

 

How about the split with him killing the ball with men on base?

[S5Dewey]

Betts career splits:

 

.866 4th

.852 8th

.848 1st

 

He has 4 PAs batting 4th this year, and that's what you are basing your position on?

 

How about the split with him killing the ball with men on base?

 

One word. CLUTCH.

[oldtimer]

I'm not saying HRam doesn't deserve some criticism.

 

I'm just saying all I hear is Hram this and Hram that.

 

How about wondering why HRam and Moreland keep being put up 4th, when so many other players have better numbers?

 

HRam doesn't make out the line-up cards.

 

FYI, HRam frustrates the hell out of me, too.

 

 

We currently have Holt, Young and Davis available to fill in for injured players. Young and Davis were used today while Moreland and Holt sat out until later in the game. Young killed every rally he was involved in and Davis also wasn't much of an asset. We have a major handicap at this time with JBJ and Pedey out. My opinion lis that we should put a lineup in of our hotest hitters in positions to support one another in scoring runs.

 

It appears the Sox are unwilling to bring up any minor league players to help us before Sept 1st, so we have to use what we currently have. Other than injured players it only appears that Brentz might help us plate a few more runs, but that is only conjecture.

 

While we have little in the way of standout hitters, other than Moreland who has gotten hot of late, we do have guys who make hard contact and do get on base. In my view, those guys are Nunez, Beni and Devers. Betts and Bogey have talent, but their weaknesses have been exposed to the extend that they are somewhat less threatening than the others.

 

I would configure the lineup for the next 4 days at least with the following batting order:

 

1. Betts (leadoff he can get on base but not as likely a rally killer)

2. Beni

3. Nunez

4. Moreland (Currently our hottest hitter)

5. Devers

6. Bogey

7. Hanley

8. Catcher

9. Holt or Davis

 

Maybe getting pushed back in the order wakes Hanley up or maybe he just has slipped but lets get him out of the middle of the order.

 

I don't see JF making hard decisions like I propose, rather being more comfortable with the status quo, even when it isn't working.

[Kingface]

It may have been said 100 times already but I just poke in from time to time........but right now Betts has been the biggest disappointment on the team this year. Some may want to put Hanley ahead of him but Hanley is who he is....he has amazing ups and amazing downs. Betts came off an MVP season (should have) and he is downright bad. I hate to say it as I love the kid and bought the shirt......but call a spade a spade.......B.A.D.!!!!!!!

[jacksonianmarch]

I have a feeling the sox brass will address the major problem facing the sox this offseason. You are all seeing what happens when you replace a HOF level talent/production with replacement level production and don't upgrade anywhere else. Everyone suffers. I forsee a JD Martinez signing this offseason. HanRam will have to move to 1b or Martinez will move into the 1b role. That offense in that park will stretch your lineup out and take some pressure off the guys currently not producting

[Kimmi]

It may have been said 100 times already but I just poke in from time to time........but right now Betts has been the biggest disappointment on the team this year. Some may want to put Hanley ahead of him but Hanley is who he is....he has amazing ups and amazing downs. Betts came off an MVP season (should have) and he is downright bad. I hate to say it as I love the kid and bought the shirt......but call a spade a spade.......B.A.D.!!!!!!!

 

Betts is definitely having a bad year for him. He gets cut a lot more slack than most of our players, despite not performing up to expectations.

[jacksonianmarch]

Betts is definitely having a bad year for him. He gets cut a lot more slack than most of our players, despite not performing up to expectations.

 

Betts was leading off ahead of a prime Pedroia. Behind Pedroia was Xander who saw a TON of fastballs hitting in front of vintage Ortiz. Behind Ortiz was a resurgent Hanley. With Ortiz gone, Hanley isn't hitting with runners on as much. This means less fastballs and more problems for Hanley. Betts is hitting lower in the order and isn't seeing as much fastballs as he had been. He is a fastball killer, but as the 3 hitter, he only sees them when he's ahead in the count and he swings so much, that he doesn't work counts. Pedroia being out doesn't allow for the pesky 2 hitter with power to flow into the next part of the order. We can talk about roster construction and lineup construction until we are blue in the face, but those who think it doesn't matter and players will play are wrong. Pitchers pitch differently when a star is in the on deck circle. Pitchers pitch differently out of the stretch than they do in the windup. Pitchers pitch the stars tighter and more cautiously when they aren't adequately protected.

[Kingface]

Betts is definitely having a bad year for him. He gets cut a lot more slack than most of our players, despite not performing up to expectations.

 

Exactly. I know above some of the crew are trying to spin numbers about how he is fine and he is clutch....... here are his number at this time last year:

 

2016: BA: .320, HR 29, RBI 94, OBP .359, SLG .561, OPS .920, WAR 9.5

 

Here is this year....

 

2017 BA .265, HR 18, RBI 77, OBP .341, SLG 441, OPS .782, WAR 4.9

 

Sorry.........numbers do not lie. That is a HUGE difference, he was expected to be the face of the franchise and step up.....he didn't. He is notorious to slow starts......but he never snapped out of it. Right now I lay a lot of blame on this poor offense on him, and followed by Hanley.....and after that....my golden boy and favorite on the team Bogey. They's win the division and do well.in the payoffs because they have the pitching.......but Betts will be the biggest factor down the stretch and I hope he becomes 'clutch' like many here think he is......

[Maxbialystock]

Betts has barely batted 4th, so we can't make any assumptions about that split.

 

Devers did great batting 3rd in the minors. I'd bat him or Betts 4th. When Pedey and JBJ were hot, they could have batted 4th. Even Beni is a better choice than HRam and Moreland. (Bogey should have batted 1st or 2nd hen he was hot.)

 

 

vs RHPs

1. Nunez

2. Beni

3. Betts

4. Devers

5. Pedey

6. JBJ

7. Bogey

8. Moreland

9. Vaz/Leon

 

vs LHPs

1. Nunez

2. Bogey

3. Pedey

4. Betts

5. HRam

6. Devers

7. Young

8. Beni

9. Vaz/Leon

 

 

Nice. However, you have to ask why Betts, now in his 3d full year, has never been slotted 4th (to any great degree, anyway). I think it's because he has too much speed, plus batting earlier gets him more at bats. Not batting 4th in those 3 years, he has nevertheless led the team in runs scored all three years, leads the team in rbi's this year, was second in rbi's last year with 113 to Papi's 122, and was 3d in rbi's in 2015 with 77 to Bogie's 81 and papi's 108. I mean, doesn't that suggest slotting him higher has worked pretty well?

 

Throw Pedey out this year. Good slotting, but bad timing. I agree he can be slotted anywhere in the top 4 and do well.

 

No complaints about the vs. lefties lineup except for Pedey.

 

But the vs. righties lineup is the one most used and therefore the most important. I notice no HanRam even though his vs. lefty-righty splits are pretty close. More rbi's per at bat vs. lefties, but more dingers per at bat vs. righties, and about the same OPS's. His K/BB ratio, however, is much better vs. lefties. Still. If Pedey can play and play well or just hit and hit well, I might agree, but I have severe doubts about that knee.

 

Granted it's a small sample size, but the evidence for leaving Devers in the bottom 4 of the lineup is overwhelming. I don't care what he did in the minors. MLB pitchers are better and have more access to videos and analysis of hitting weaknesses. Plus I think he can do good things down there. He's had now 56 at bats batting 5th with 8 rbi's. He's had 20 at bats batting 7th with 7 rbi's. Spread that over 500 at bats and you are looking at 140 rbi's. Of course that would never happen because, if he did that well for just the first two months of a season, no manager would fail to move him up. Absent that kind of data, we have to use those 28 games, which say unequivocally that he is better further down in the order and also productive, which is really the point, isn't it?

 

If Pedey is out, HanRam is back in vs. righties. My lineup would then be--

 

Nunez

Beni

Bogey (sounds terrible, but he's done it a lot this year and his stroke seems to be returning)

Betts (you said he can do it, the only problem is putting so much base running talent in the cleanup slot)

Moreland (50 rbi's vs. righties and an OPS over .800) (plus I want 2 lefty bats in the first 5 and don't think Devers or JBJ are up to that based on their splits)

HanRam (this could be a very good fit for him--less pressure)_

Devers or JBJ

JBJ or Devers

Leon/Vazquez

 

What I like about my lineup is that it spreads the wealth through all 9 slots. No rest for opposing pitchers getting to the bottom of the order especially when all three (if Leon is catching) hit from the left side. But the top of the order ain't too shabby either. The question is the middle, the 4,5, and 6 slots. Betts should be fine. Moreland is 3d on the team in rbi's with fewer at bats than the first two, Betts and Beni. And, as I said, HanRam might benefit from dropping down and the 6th slot can be very productive.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[Maxbialystock]

Yes, and a damn good pitching staff and defense have been carrying us. We've also had better timely hitting until 4 days ago.

 

I will say, I do not think these bad 2nd half offensive numbers will continue.

 

Even if it does, we can still win.... harder but possible.

 

There you go with the optimism again. Good to see.

[moonslav59]

Nice. However, you have to ask why Betts, now in his 3d full year, has never been slotted 4th (to any great degree, anyway).

 

Well, we had Papi and HRam doing well last year.

 

I think it's because he has too much speed, plus batting earlier gets him more at bats. Not batting 4th in those 3 years, he has nevertheless led the team in runs scored all three years, leads the team in rbi's this year, was second in rbi's last year with 113 to Papi's 122, and was 3d in rbi's in 2015 with 77 to Bogie's 81 and papi's 108. I mean, doesn't that suggest slotting him higher has worked pretty well?

 

We lack power and timely hitting. Betts is our leader in both areas. He should bat 4th. Vs RHPs- maybe Devers.

 

Throw Pedey out this year. Good slotting, but bad timing. I agree he can be slotted anywhere in the top 4 and do well.

 

No complaints about the vs. lefties lineup except for Pedey.

 

But the vs. righties lineup is the one most used and therefore the most important. I notice no HanRam even though his vs. lefty-righty splits are pretty close.

 

 

I meant to have HRam in the line-up, but he should not bat above 5th until he shows he deserves it.

More rbi's per at bat vs. lefties, but more dingers per at bat vs. righties, and about the same OPS's. His K/BB ratio, however, is much better vs. lefties. Still. If Pedey can play and play well or just hit and hit well, I might agree, but I have severe doubts about that knee.

 

Granted it's a small sample size, but the evidence for leaving Devers in the bottom 4 of the lineup is overwhelming.

 

A tiny sample size can never be overwhelming anything.

 

He has a large sample size in the minors doing well in the 3 slot.

 

I don't care what he did in the minors.

 

I don't care about 5-15 PA sample sizes.

 

MLB pitchers are better and have more access to videos and analysis of hitting weaknesses. Plus I think he can do good things down there. He's had now 56 at bats batting 5th with 8 rbi's. He's had 20 at bats batting 7th with 7 rbi's. Spread that over 500 at bats and you are looking at 140 rbi's. Of course that would never happen because, if he did that well for just the first two months of a season, no manager would fail to move him up. Absent that kind of data, we have to use those 28 games, which say unequivocally that he is better further down in the order and also productive, which is really the point, isn't it?

 

If Pedey is out, HanRam is back in vs. righties. My lineup would then be--

 

Nunez

Beni

Bogey (sounds terrible, but he's done it a lot this year and his stroke seems to be returning)

Betts (you said he can do it, the only problem is putting so much base running talent in the cleanup slot)

Moreland (50 rbi's vs. righties and an OPS over .800) (plus I want 2 lefty bats in the first 5 and don't think Devers or JBJ are up to that based on their splits)

HanRam (this could be a very good fit for him--less pressure)_

Devers or JBJ

JBJ or Devers

Leon/Vazquez

 

Better than JF's line-up.

 

What I like about my lineup is that it spreads the wealth through all 9 slots. No rest for opposing pitchers getting to the bottom of the order especially when all three (if Leon is catching) hit from the left side. But the top of the order ain't too shabby either. The question is the middle, the 4,5, and 6 slots. Betts should be fine. Moreland is 3d on the team in rbi's with fewer at bats than the first two, Betts and Beni. And, as I said, HanRam might benefit from dropping down and the 6th slot can be very productive.

 

Fine with me- just get him out of the 4 slot.