Clutch vs non-clutch

[notin]

To me this illustrates a big perception problem with 'clutch' and why we need to come up with a more sensible and realistic definition. It's just plain stupid to define a clutch player as someone who magically elevates under pressure and can do it every time.

 

But it does need to be differentiated from clutch hits. Those certainly do exist. Heck David Ortiz got two walk off hits in post season games ON THE SAME DAY! !! That's insanely clutch. But it was also because the dude was a crazy good hitter.

 

A "clutch hitter" is supposedly a hitter who outperforms his normal ability in clutch situations. The existence of such a hitter to me is debatable and no amount of high school buzzer beaters will change this. And I've seen David Ortiz hit plenty of times.

 

But been asking for a definition of clutch since the last thread broached the topic. I set no reason anyone is going to suddenly figure one out now. The closest I've seen is that now apparently "clutch" is equivalent to God and love

[User Name]

....and bigfoot and unicorns.

[cp176]

add to the list - rally caps, dirty clothing, the wave, fans cheering in general - just about anything that happens that can't be readily explained.

God that is why I love this game. It is not sterile.

 

Before anyone decides to come up with any sort of definition of what a clutch player is, I think you have to first identify what a clutch moment is don't you? Good luck with that. I wonder how many different responses you get to that one?

[S5Dewey]

The problem is your clear inability to differentiate between a clutch hitter and a clutch hit (or shot).

 

No one disputes clutch hits exist. Just clutch hitters who can purportedly elevate their skill set when the game is on the line.

 

If we stick with your one non - baseball example, does this 18yo kid have a history of shooting better just before the buzzer than in the rest of the game?

 

And if I say he does, do you then use the SSS argument?

 

We continue to chase our tails on this debate because the percentage of clutch opportunities (in any sport) as compared to non-clutch opportunities is so small that any success can be attributed to non-believers as a SSS.

 

The young man I referred to has an average of about 12 ppg but in this game he scored 22. That in itself could be indicative of his being clutch.

 

As I said earlier, the "problem" is that many see clutch as being an either/or situation. In their eyes either someone is clutch or they're not - and sports isn't like that. All players are more (or less) clutch than others. No one succeeds in every clutch opportunity but there are others whose success rate is higher than 1) other players, and 2) higher than their success rate in non-stress opportunities.

 

These are the ones we refer to as "clutch".

Edited March 28, 2017 by S5Dewey

[Bellhorn04]

But it does need to be differentiated from clutch hits. Those certainly do exist. Heck David Ortiz got two walk off hits in post season games ON THE SAME DAY! !! That's insanely clutch. But it was also because the dude was a crazy good hitter.

 

A "clutch hitter" is supposedly a hitter who outperforms his normal ability in clutch situations. The existence of such a hitter to me is debatable and no amount of high school buzzer beaters will change this. And I've seen David Ortiz hit plenty of times.

 

But been asking for a definition of clutch since the last thread broached the topic. I set no reason anyone is going to suddenly figure one out now. The closest I've seen is that now apparently "clutch" is equivalent to God and love

 

Well, obviously, the less reasonable and less down-to-earth you make the definition, the easier it is to discredit.

[S5Dewey]

add to the list - rally caps, dirty clothing, the wave, fans cheering in general - just about anything that happens that can't be readily explained.

God that is why I love this game. It is not sterile.

 

Before anyone decides to come up with any sort of definition of what a clutch player is, I think you have to first identify what a clutch moment is don't you? Good luck with that. I wonder how many different responses you get to that one?

 

Exactly. Thus far it's been impossible to define a clutch moment, let alone what "clutch" is. And if you can't define it then how do you recognize it when you see it?

[cp176]

Exactly. Thus far it's been impossible to define a clutch moment, let alone what "clutch" is. And if you can't define it then how do you recognize it when you see it?

 

I'm on your page with this one. I'm not sure whether the fact that I have been actively involved in sports either as a coach or participant for 60 years taints my opinion but it really makes me say that I know clutch when I see it. For reference, the kid that blocks a groundball with his chest and keeps it in the infield might be every bit as clutch as the guy who knocks in the winning run. You have to be able to recognize what the truly big moments are in any game before you can identify clutch moments and subsequently clutch players. I am absolutely ok with people who don't believe that clutch players exist. I do and I hope that no one ever tries to create a definition for these players and moments.

[cp176]

by the way, I'm not sure whether or not I could show anyone a unicorn up here in Maine but I sure as hell could show them a susquatch or bigfoot or whatever. we got one living right down town!

[S5Dewey]

by the way, I'm not sure whether or not I could show anyone a unicorn up here in Maine but I sure as hell could show them a susquatch or bigfoot or whatever. we got one living right down town!

 

Hmmm... I've suspected that we elected Sasquatch as our governor.

[cp176]

Hmmm... I've suspected that we elected Sasquatch as our governor.

 

might fit some of the criteria but just not quite tall enough

[S5Dewey]

might fit some of the criteria but just not quite tall enough

 

:-) :-)

[User Name]

Clutch doesn't exist.

[Bellhorn04]

Clutch doesn't exist.

 

So what, there's not even such a thing as a clutch play?

[mvp 78]

Funny you say that, since a lot of players are embracing some of the aspects analytics have uncovered regarding the game of baseball. Don't believe me? Ask Josh Reddick what he thinks about bunting, or Zack Greinke what he thinks about throwing waste pitches.

 

You expect me to listen to one guy with a soul patch and another with psychiatric problems?

[mvp 78]

But it does need to be differentiated from clutch hits. Those certainly do exist. Heck David Ortiz got two walk off hits in post season games ON THE SAME DAY! !! That's insanely clutch. But it was also because the dude was a crazy good hitter.

 

A "clutch hitter" is supposedly a hitter who outperforms his normal ability in clutch situations. The existence of such a hitter to me is debatable and no amount of high school buzzer beaters will change this. And I've seen David Ortiz hit plenty of times.

 

But been asking for a definition of clutch since the last thread broached the topic. I set no reason anyone is going to suddenly figure one out now. The closest I've seen is that now apparently "clutch" is equivalent to God and love

 

No, just no.

[User Name]

You expect me to listen to one guy with a soul patch and another with psychiatric problems?

 

Yes, I do. If you're willing to believe in bigfoot and unicorns, then why not?

[User Name]

So what, there's not even such a thing as a clutch play?

 

Clutch plays yes, clutch performers who somehow elevate their game in important moments, no. At least not in baseball.

[mvp 78]

Yes, I do. If you're willing to believe in bigfoot and unicorns, then why not?

 

Bigfoot NOT unicorns.

[Slasher9]

Clutch exists. 100%. as has been proven throughout this thread.

those that are trying to "argue" that it doesn't are just trolling.

lol @ whoever thought a professional baseball player has the same focus in every AB situation. too funny.

that really seals the faux argument that you are trying to make.

[mvp 78]

The Greatest Clutch Hitter in the History of the Boston Red Sox, David Ortiz, #34.

 

[User Name]

Clutch exists. 100%. as has been proven throughout this thread.

those that are trying to "argue" that it doesn't are just trolling.

lol @ whoever thought a professional baseball player has the same focus in every AB situation. too funny.

that really seals the faux argument that you are trying to make.

 

No it has not been proven. You seem to not understand what a "fact" actually is, for one. And two, you know your argument is s***** when you have to resort to abstract concepts like "love" and "God" because you can't come up with an actual definition. Go back to bashing David Price bro.

[moonslav59]

Clutch exists. 100%. as has been proven throughout this thread.

those that are trying to "argue" that it doesn't are just trolling.

lol @ whoever thought a professional baseball player has the same focus in every AB situation. too funny.

that really seals the faux argument that you are trying to make.

 

Nobody is arguing every player has the exact same focus in every PA. That's an absurd thought and never was part of the argument from those of us who believe that "clutch" is not a skill set.

[cp176]

boy oh boy

[Kimmi]

But if none of the definitions are accurate, the research (which does not disprove the concept) is not only useless but also irrelevant.

 

Who said none of the definitions are accurate?

 

One study might define a clutch situation as 8th inning or later with the game tied or within on run. Another study might define a clutch situation as 7th inning or later with the score within 2 runs. The definitions are certainly accurate and the research is certainly relevant.

 

It might be a different story if different definitions of clutch provided different research results. But when all the studies conclude the same thing, it makes a pretty strong case against clutch being a repeatable and predictable skill.

[Kimmi]

Well, God should probably be left out of it, but you do have a basic point, proving the existence of something intangible is pretty goddam difficult.

 

But showing the outcomes in those clutch moments is pretty easy to do.

 

The outcomes show that there is no correlation of 'clutch' from year to year.

[Kimmi]

yes. its called focus. do you believe in focus? do you believe that in a defining moment in a game a player could have more focus? be "zoned in"? thats raising your level.

 

Of course I believe in focus. Good players are able to maintain focus in pretty much all situations.

[Kimmi]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the research doesn't disprove anything, and the fact that there is no agreement on the definition also makes the research irrelevant and pointless. None of this makes the concept of clutch a fallacy. It just invalidates all of the studies.

 

You can say that as often as you like. It won't make it true.

[Kimmi]

To me this illustrates a big perception problem with 'clutch' and why we need to come up with a more sensible and realistic definition. It's just plain stupid to define a clutch player as someone who magically elevates under pressure and can do it every time.

 

People who are defining clutch as the ability to magically elevates one's game are a few people who believe that this ability exists.

 

Do you think a player has the ability to do this in pressure situations on a regular (statistically significant) basis? No, it doesn't mean that a player has to do it every time.

[Kimmi]

Clutch exists. 100%. as has been proven throughout this thread.

those that are trying to "argue" that it doesn't are just trolling.

lol @ whoever thought a professional baseball player has the same focus in every AB situation. too funny.

that really seals the faux argument that you are trying to make.

 

Oh Slasher, because I like you, I'm going to let you slide with this post.

 

But seriously, how has clutch been proven?

 

Because someone says it exists, that's proving that it does?

[Kimmi]

Also, I want to know how it is that clutch can't be dis-proven if we can't agree on its definition, yet OTOH, people know it exists even though there's no definition of what it is.