Clutch vs non-clutch

[notin]

yes. its called focus. do you believe in focus? do you believe that in a defining moment in a game a player could have more focus? be "zoned in"? thats raising your level.

 

 

No. I don't.

 

I don't think too many players would ever rise to being one of the best 750 players in the world unless they were constantly focused...

[notin]

Holy smokes Kimmi.

do you believe in Love? can you prove love? can a statistician prove love?

love = clutch

or even further:

love = clutch = God

 

 

So is that the definition of clutch you think we need to use? That clutch is love?

 

It might be even more fun to get a definition of love...

[a700hitter]

That means you are operating on the definition that NONE o the definitions are accurate.

 

Of course, if none of them are accurate, that means no one knows what clutch is, which means saying it does exist is a complete fallacy..

That conclusion is fallacious.

 

Also, none of the statistical studies definitively disprove even the disputed definitions of clutch.

[notin]

That conclusion is fallacious.

 

Also, none of the statistical studies definitively disprove even the disputed definitions of clutch.

 

How so?

 

According to Kimmi, "The idea that people have not agreed on a definition of clutch does not invalidate the research that's been done. In fact, it makes the point stronger, because no matter what definition of clutch they use, the results come back the same." That sounds like no matter the proposed definition of "clutch," the results come back disproving it...

[a700hitter]

How so?

 

According to Kimmi, "The idea that people have not agreed on a definition of clutch does not invalidate the research that's been done. In fact, it makes the point stronger, because no matter what definition of clutch they use, the results come back the same." That sounds like no matter the proposed definition of "clutch," the results come back disproving it...

Don't lose sight of the fact that the research doesn't disprove anything, and the fact that there is no agreement on the definition also makes the research irrelevant and pointless. None of this makes the concept of clutch a fallacy. It just invalidates all of the studies.

[Bellhorn04]

Researchers are up against a perfect storm of small sample sizes and randomness trying to prove or disprove clutch.

 

A guy might have a sensational postseason record, like Schilling, but it can still be attributed to randomness. Nothing proven, nothing disproven.

[notin]

Researchers are up against a perfect storm of small sample sizes and randomness trying to prove or disprove clutch.

 

A guy might have a sensational postseason record, like Schilling, but it can still be attributed to randomness. Nothing proven, nothing disproven.

 

With the exception of the last sentence, that's basically what I have been saying for 31 pages. ...

[notin]

Don't lose sight of the fact that the research doesn't disprove anything, and the fact that there is no agreement on the definition also makes the research irrelevant and pointless. None of this makes the concept of clutch a fallacy. It just invalidates all of the studies.

 

Actually I've come across a few that disprove varying definitions of clutch.

[Bellhorn04]

Actually I've come across a few that disprove varying definitions of clutch.

 

Disprove, or fail to prove?

[Bellhorn04]

The fact that Papi and Schilling can be explained away by randomness doesn't disprove anything. It merely provides an alternate explanation that can't be ruled out.

[notin]

Disprove, or fail to prove?

 

Disprove.

 

Including one quick read that concluded that Carl Yastrzemski was not as clutch as many believe. Of course, the study was done on hitters in 1969 and 1970 and therefore skipped what would have been the best clutch stretch of his career. ..

[a700hitter]

I think the data in the studies could not prove clutch. It did not definitively disprove clutch.

[Bellhorn04]

I think the data in the studies could not prove clutch. It did not definitively disprove clutch.

 

I don't think so either.

[Bellhorn04]

Just because something could be random doesn't mean that it is in fact random. There are alternative explanations.

[cp176]

Holy smokes Kimmi.

do you believe in Love? can you prove love? can a statistician prove love?

love = clutch

or even further:

love = clutch = God

 

I might actually understand what you are trying to say here and I might actually agree with you.

[User Name]

I might actually understand what you are trying to say here and I might actually agree with you.

 

You're joking right?

[cp176]

You're joking right?

 

yes probably in a way yes but what the f*** I am not totally sure that bigfoot doesn't exist. If rally caps and dirty laundry make players feel more comfortable in pressure situations is it possible that they might outperform what the stats seem to indicate as their legal limits? Now we can laugh at all of these silly little things and call them senselessly stupid but if they actually matter to guys in the arena playing the game is it possible that there might be something to what they have believed in since the game was created. I think that I understand the importance of analytics in today's game but I don' think that the boys actually playing the game are going to be giving up what they feel are the right ways of doing things because someone analyzing data tells them it is time to change. I believe that there are lots of things in the world today that happen with no real logical explanation for them happening. Some good some bad. I don't need nor want all things defined.

[S5Dewey]

yes probably in a way yes but what the f*** I am not totally sure that bigfoot doesn't exist. If rally caps and dirty laundry make players feel more comfortable in pressure situations is it possible that they might outperform what the stats seem to indicate as their legal limits? Now we can laugh at all of these silly little things and call them senselessly stupid but if they actually matter to guys in the arena playing the game is it possible that there might be something to what they have believed in since the game was created. I think that I understand the importance of analytics in today's game but I don' think that the boys actually playing the game are going to be giving up what they feel are the right ways of doing things because someone analyzing data tells them it is time to change. I believe that there are lots of things in the world today that happen with no real logical explanation for them happening. Some good some bad. I don't need nor want all things defined.

 

This post needs a 'Like" button.

[User Name]

Funny you say that, since a lot of players are embracing some of the aspects analytics have uncovered regarding the game of baseball. Don't believe me? Ask Josh Reddick what he thinks about bunting, or Zack Greinke what he thinks about throwing waste pitches.

[notin]

yes probably in a way yes but what the f*** I am not totally sure that bigfoot doesn't exist. If rally caps and dirty laundry make players feel more comfortable in pressure situations is it possible that they might outperform what the stats seem to indicate as their legal limits? Now we can laugh at all of these silly little things and call them senselessly stupid but if they actually matter to guys in the arena playing the game is it possible that there might be something to what they have believed in since the game was created. I think that I understand the importance of analytics in today's game but I don' think that the boys actually playing the game are going to be giving up what they feel are the right ways of doing things because someone analyzing data tells them it is time to change. I believe that there are lots of things in the world today that happen with no real logical explanation for them happening. Some good some bad. I don't need nor want all things defined.

 

Is Bigfoot clutch?

[User Name]

Are unicorns clutch?

[S5Dewey]

March 11, 2017. An 18 year old kid from a small town in Maine shoots a 3-pointer at the end of the game, The gun goes off just before the ball goes through the hoop and this kid's team pulls ahead for the first time in the last 4 minutes as his team wins the State Championship in his division by one point.

 

Is he clutch or is it random?

 

Who am I supposed to believe, someone's statistics of my own lyin' eyes (and my own experiences)?

[cp176]

Is Bigfoot clutch?

 

It truly depends on what he chooses to clutch.

[cp176]

Funny you say that, since a lot of players are embracing some of the aspects analytics have uncovered regarding the game of baseball. Don't believe me? Ask Josh Reddick what he thinks about bunting, or Zack Greinke what he thinks about throwing waste pitches.

 

i'm not disputing the fact that data gathering has lead to some significant changes in the game. It has for sure. I'm glad that there are some players who are embracing this new world of baseball.

[cp176]

Are unicorns clutch?

 

 

Personally it would depend upon where he wanted to shove that big old horn.

[User Name]

March 11, 2017. An 18 year old kid from a small town in Maine shoots a 3-pointer at the end of the game, The gun goes off just before the ball goes through the hoop and this kid's team pulls ahead for the first time in the last 4 minutes as his team wins the State Championship in his division by one point.

 

Is he clutch or is it random?

 

Who am I supposed to believe, someone's statistics of my own lyin' eyes (and my own experiences)?

 

The fact that you have to go to another sport to find an example of what you think clutch is does your argument no favors.

[notin]

Are unicorns clutch?

 

More so than bigfoot, yes...

[notin]

The fact that you have to go to another sport to find an example of what you think clutch is does your argument no favors.

 

As has been pointed out to him multiple times. Also using high school games as proof of the ability of the best baseball players in the world can elevate their talent as the situation warrants it...

[notin]

March 11, 2017. An 18 year old kid from a small town in Maine shoots a 3-pointer at the end of the game, The gun goes off just before the ball goes through the hoop and this kid's team pulls ahead for the first time in the last 4 minutes as his team wins the State Championship in his division by one point.

 

Is he clutch or is it random?

 

Who am I supposed to believe, someone's statistics of my own lyin' eyes (and my own experiences)?

 

The problem is your clear inability to differentiate between a clutch hitter and a clutch hit (or shot).

 

No one disputes clutch hits exist. Just clutch hitters who can purportedly elevate their skill set when the game is on the line.

 

If we stick with your one non - baseball example, does this 18yo kid have a history of shooting better just before the buzzer than in the rest of the game?

[Bellhorn04]

No one disputes clutch hits exist. Just clutch hitters who can purportedly elevate their skill set when the game is on the line.

 

If we stick with your one non - baseball example, does this 18yo kid have a history of shooting better just before the buzzer than in the rest of the game?

 

To me this illustrates a big perception problem with 'clutch' and why we need to come up with a more sensible and realistic definition. It's just plain stupid to define a clutch player as someone who magically elevates under pressure and can do it every time.