A Realistic View at 2017 Part I

[moonslav59]

My stars! What was it like when you were the ONLY Sox fan waiting on a WS? How horrible was that 75 WS for you? Did you ever recover?

 

I wasn't the only one, but I was 16, and I cried.

 

I kept score of each game. The Ed Armbrister call irked me to no end.

 

Bucky Effin Dent.

 

Buckner.

 

2003.

 

I said for years, I'd take 10 last place finishes for one ring, and I meant it.

 

I don't feel the same now, but I think that sentiment is still strong.

Edited December 19, 2016 by moonslav59

[a700hitter]

Try going 43 years without a ring and get back to me.

I waited for 45 years, and in that time there was a lot of excitement as the Red Sox almost always fielded competitive exciting teams -- finishing below .500 in a small handful of seasons in those 45 years (most of them were under crackhead Hobson). I was almost always hopeful and excited until September and they did go to the WS three times (and with a couple of breaks they could have won twice). They went to the post season 6 times. In all of that time, I have not experienced such prolonged hopelessness as those 3 last place years under Benny. In 2014 and 2015, the last excitement in those years was opening day.

[Bellhorn04]

I said for years, I'd take 10 last place finishes for one ring, and I meant it.

 

And that's exactly what Dombrowski has in mind - one ring followed by 10 last place finishes.

[moonslav59]

Maybe 2 rings and eight 3rd or 4th place finishes.

[a700hitter]

And that's exactly what Dombrowski has in mind - one ring followed by 10 last place finishes.

Checkmate.

[a700hitter]

Maybe 2 rings and eight 3rd or 4th place finishes.

That would be better than Ben by an enormous magnitude.

[moonslav59]

That would be better than Ben by an enormous magnitude.

 

Maybe true.

Edited December 19, 2016 by moonslav59

[moonslav59]

Maybe true, but he used Ben's prospects to make it happen, but it could be one ring, one first place finish, one second place finish and 7 last places.

 

Also. I'm not sure 2 rings in 10 years beats 1 in 4 years--certainly not by "an enormous magnitude" just because we finish in 3rd or 4th rather than 5th the other years.

 

Right?

[a700hitter]

Maybe true, but he used Ben's prospects to make it happen, but it could be one ring, one first place finish, one second place finish and 7 last places.

 

Also. I'm not sure 2 rings in 10 years beats 1 in 4 years.

2 Championships plus a division win (which has already accomplished)-- If he gets those, I am pretty sure that we will not see last place finishes in the other 7 years.

[moonslav59]

2 Championships plus a division win (which has already accomplished)-- If he gets those, I am pretty sure that we will not see last place finishes in the other 7 years.

 

I am too, but you were comparing hypotheticals.

[mvp 78]

Hypothetically, I wish there was at least some ST games to be watching right now. The hot stove has cooled considerably.

[notin]

That would be better than Ben by an enormous magnitude.

 

Of course Dombrowski needs to get one ring before he even equals Cherington.

 

And even then, Cherington was involved in the 2004 and 2007 rings, especially 2007 as he and Hoyer acquired Beckett while Epstein was on his sabbatical...

[Bellhorn04]

Of course Dombrowski needs to get one ring before he even equals Cherington.

 

And even then, Cherington was involved in the 2004 and 2007 rings, especially 2007 as he and Hoyer acquired Beckett while Epstein was on his sabbatical...

 

Larry gets credit for that one, doesn't he?

[mvp 78]

Of course Dombrowski needs to get one ring before he even equals Cherington.

 

And even then, Cherington was involved in the 2004 and 2007 rings, especially 2007 as he and Hoyer acquired Beckett while Epstein was on his sabbatical...

 

He already has a ring, just not one here.

[a700hitter]

Of course Dombrowski needs to get one ring before he even equals Cherington.

 

And even then, Cherington was involved in the 2004 and 2007 rings, especially 2007 as he and Hoyer acquired Beckett while Epstein was on his sabbatical...

Cherries had not authority when he was GM driving the franchise into last place, but he had authority to pull off the the Beckett deal when he was really just Theo's understudy and he was temporary co-GM with Hoyer? That doesn't follow logically. It was my understanding that Bill Lajoie was the driver of that deal.

[moonslav59]

Cherries had not authority when he was GM driving the franchise into last place, but he had authority to pull off the the Beckett deal when he was really just Theo's understudy and he was temporary co-GM with Hoyer? That doesn't follow logically. It was my understanding that Bill Lajoie was the driver of that deal.

 

And Ben's prospects were the drivers of DD's deals.

[Hugh2]

Of course Dombrowski needs to get one ring before he even equals Cherington.

 

And even then, Cherington was involved in the 2004 and 2007 rings, especially 2007 as he and Hoyer acquired Beckett while Epstein was on his sabbatical...

 

I'll believe that. How often does the assistant manager do all the work the manager takes credit for? How many CFOs are the byproduct of their controllers work?

 

Charrington was likely highly involved if not more at times of many of the moves in the Epstein era. I have no doubt Ben was trigger shy to make the types of trades that DD has made that very well may lead to much better success the next four years but I don't think DD could have done much better during the crap era.

 

If DD gutted the farm two years sooner we wouldn't have this young core he's building around.

[a700hitter]

And Ben's prospects were the drivers of DD's deals.

So, Theo was Ben's puppet? What you people won't do to aggrandize Ben when you are not making excuses for him.

[moonslav59]

So, Theo was Ben's puppet? What you people won't do to aggrandize Ben when you are not making excuses for him.

 

 

You need reading comprehension classes. Where did I ever even relate Ben to Theo, let alone say Theo was Ben's puppet?

 

Ben made some big mistakes, especially the Pablo signing.

 

Theo made some mistakes too (CC signing). Theo used some of Dan D's prospects to build a championship, but he never went overboard in stripping the farm.

 

Dan D has a history of stripping the farm and signing big FAs and leaving the team worse off than when he started. Some cases were not his whole fault. He was forced to firesale the Marlins after their win.

 

He started in Montreal and his team's finished 3rd, 4th and then ended 6th (71-90).

 

He won a ring in Florida, but was under the heavy hand of Huizenga I'm fine with giving him credit for that ring. It's not easy building a championship from an expansion team. He deserves credit where credit is due. However, his record speaks for itself:

 

6th of 7, 5th of 5, 4th, 3rd, 2nd (Champs), 5th (54-108), 5th, 5th, 3rd and 4th

No first place finishes that you seem to value more as much as rings.

 

So, before going to Detroit: 13 seasons with no 1st place finishes and only one 2nd place finish- 1 ring.

 

He joined a Tiger team that had finished 3rd, 3rd and 4th beforehand. They then went:

 

5th, 5th, 4th, 4th, 2nd (lost WS), 2nd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd.

 

After his first 22 seasons:

0 first place

2 second place

4 third place

4 fourth place

9 fifth or lower place

 

Then after trading away top prospects and signing some big FAs and extensions, the Tigers finished:

1st, 1st, 1st, 1st (They finished 5th the year after he left).

No rings, 1 WS trip, 2 ALCS losses, 1 LDS loss

Before joining the Sox:

 

After his first 26 seasons as a GM:

1 Ring

4 first place

2 second place

4 third place

4 fourth place

9 fifth or lower place

 

Count the 1st place finish this year and he's got 5 first place finishes out of 27, This is less than Ben's 25% first place finishes.

 

His 1 ring in 27 is way worse than 1 in 4.

 

Yeah, his 9 fifth place finishes out of 27 (33%) is better than Ben's 75% last place finishes, but at least Ben left the team in better shape than when he took over: something DD has never done.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by moonslav59

[a700hitter]

 

You need reading comprehension classes. Where did I ever even relate Ben to Theo?

 

Ben made some big mistakes, especially the Pablo signing.

 

Theo made some mistakes too (CC signing). Theo used some of Dan D's prospects to build a championship, but he never went overboard in stripping the farm.

 

Dan D has a history of stripping the farm and signing big FAs and leaving the team worse off than when he started. Some cases were not his whole fault. He was forced to firesale the Marlins after their win.

 

He started in Montreal and his team's finished 3rd, 4th and then ended 6th (71-90).

 

He won a ring in Florida, but was under the heavy hand of Huizenga I'm fine with giving him credit for that ring. It's not easy building a championship from an expansion team. He deserves credit where credit is due. However, his record speaks for itself:

 

6th of 7, 5th of 5, 4th, 3rd, 2nd (Champs), 5th (54-108), 5th, 5th, 3rd and 4th

No first place finishes that you seem to value more as much as rings.

 

So, before going to Detroit: 13 seasons with no 1st place finishes and only one 2nd place finish- 1 ring.

 

He joined a Tiger team that had finished 3rd, 3rd and 4th beforehand. They then went:

 

5th, 5th, 4th, 4th, 2nd (lost WS), 2nd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd.

 

After his first 22 seasons:

0 first place

2 second place

4 third place

4 fourth place

9 fifth or lower place

 

Then after trading away top prospects and signing some big FAs and extensions, the Tigers finished:

1st, 1st, 1st, 1st (They finished 5th the year after he left).

No rings, 1 WS trip, 2 ALCS losses, 1 LDS loss

Before joining the Sox:

 

After his first 26 seasons as a GM:

1 Ring

4 first place

2 second place

4 third place

4 fourth place

9 fifth or lower place

 

Count the 1st place finish this year and he's got 5 first place finishes out of 27, This is less than Ben's 25% first place finishes.

 

His 1 ring in 27 is way worse than 1 in 4.

 

Yeah, his 9 fifth place finishes out of 27 (33%) is better than Ben's 75% last place finishes, but at least Ben left the team in better shape than when he took over: something DD has never done.

 

 

 

I really don't care to defend any GM. I have said it often here that I have very little regard for the suits that run baseball. I am a fan of none of them. However, when we have a roster full of talent offensively and pitching also, I just try to enjoy it while it lasts. You can continue to marinate in your misery about 2020 to 2025, but I have to tell you that you are a huge debbie downer.

[Bellhorn04]

 

Yeah, his 9 fifth place finishes out of 27 (33%) is better than Ben's 75% last place finishes, but at least Ben left the team in better shape than when he took over: something DD has never done.

 

 

DD arguably left the Tigers in better shape than when he took over. (The 2001 team was 66-96.) Going by W-L record he did, at least.

[a700hitter]

 

You need reading comprehension classes. Where did I ever even relate Ben to Theo, let alone say Theo was Ben's puppet?

 

Ben made some big mistakes, especially the Pablo signing.

 

Theo made some mistakes too (CC signing). Theo used some of Dan D's prospects to build a championship, but he never went overboard in stripping the farm.

 

Dan D has a history of stripping the farm and signing big FAs and leaving the team worse off than when he started. Some cases were not his whole fault. He was forced to firesale the Marlins after their win.

 

He started in Montreal and his team's finished 3rd, 4th and then ended 6th (71-90).

 

He won a ring in Florida, but was under the heavy hand of Huizenga I'm fine with giving him credit for that ring. It's not easy building a championship from an expansion team. He deserves credit where credit is due. However, his record speaks for itself:

 

6th of 7, 5th of 5, 4th, 3rd, 2nd (Champs), 5th (54-108), 5th, 5th, 3rd and 4th

No first place finishes that you seem to value more as much as rings.

 

So, before going to Detroit: 13 seasons with no 1st place finishes and only one 2nd place finish- 1 ring.

 

He joined a Tiger team that had finished 3rd, 3rd and 4th beforehand. They then went:

 

5th, 5th, 4th, 4th, 2nd (lost WS), 2nd, 5th, 2nd, 3rd.

 

After his first 22 seasons:

0 first place

2 second place

4 third place

4 fourth place

9 fifth or lower place

 

Then after trading away top prospects and signing some big FAs and extensions, the Tigers finished:

1st, 1st, 1st, 1st (They finished 5th the year after he left).

No rings, 1 WS trip, 2 ALCS losses, 1 LDS loss

Before joining the Sox:

 

After his first 26 seasons as a GM:

1 Ring

4 first place

2 second place

4 third place

4 fourth place

9 fifth or lower place

 

Count the 1st place finish this year and he's got 5 first place finishes out of 27, This is less than Ben's 25% first place finishes.

 

His 1 ring in 27 is way worse than 1 in 4.

 

Yeah, his 9 fifth place finishes out of 27 (33%) is better than Ben's 75% last place finishes, but at least Ben left the team in better shape than when he took over: something DD has never done.

 

 

 

You Benny Boy Fanboys need to keep track of your conspiracy theories regarding Benny's failures and your self-created stories about Benny's tremendous influence and accomplishments while he was merely a Theo understudy or a temporary co-GM. These fallacious narratives are logically contradictory.

[Kimmi]

Let's be honest, without an ace, we weren't going anywhere Kim --i.e. We weren't going to win a WS--

 

An arm like Sale is a must, if you want to win a WS --on paper.

 

An arm like Sale is not a must in order to win a World Series.

 

Certainly Sale improves our chances, but we had a good chance of winning a World Series without him.

[Kimmi]

Then I guess you should be bashing DD for signing Price to be our "ace".

 

Ouch.

[Kimmi]

I am extremely hopeful for 2017 and the next several years, and I will assess 2021-2025 as it starts to come into clearer focus. Right now, it is too distant to for anyone to reliably project success or doom for 2021 - 2025.

 

I liken the importance of planning for the long term in baseball to planning for retirement.

 

You can enjoy today all you want, but you still have to be concerned about and plan for your future. It would be stupid and reckless to have the attitude of not worrying about what happens 5, 10, or 30 years down the road because you are just going to enjoy having fun now.

[Kimmi]

And that's exactly what Dombrowski has in mind - one ring followed by 10 last place finishes.

 

Well I have said that if we win that one ring, the trades will have been worth it.

 

But we haven't won that ring yet.

[Spudboy]

I liken the importance of planning for the long term in baseball to planning for retirement.

 

You can enjoy today all you want, but you still have to be concerned about and plan for your future. It would be stupid and reckless to have the attitude of not worrying about what happens 5, 10, or 30 years down the road because you are just going to enjoy having fun now.

 

I acknowledge that I am a prime example of live fast and leave a pretty corpse!!!!!

[a700hitter]

I liken the importance of planning for the long term in baseball to planning for retirement.

 

You can enjoy today all you want, but you still have to be concerned about and plan for your future. It would be stupid and reckless to have the attitude of not worrying about what happens 5, 10, or 30 years down the road because you are just going to enjoy having fun now.

I have been retired for a year already and I will be turning 58 in January, so clearly I know how to plan long term. How is your retirement planning going?

[Kimmi]

I have been retired for a year already and I will be turning 58 in January, so clearly I know how to plan long term. How is your retirement planning going?

 

I knew that you were retired. That was my point. You planned for your long term, rather than saying that you don't care about the what happens 30 years down the road.

 

The philosophy should be the same with running a baseball franchise.

[jacksonianmarch]

That is an incredibly stupid analogy on many levels