Red Sox Acquire Drew Pomeranz

[moonslav59]

Significant inter-divisional trades are almost non-existent. I seriously doubt the Rays would've traded Moore within the division or the Sox would've traded the prospects it would've taken to get him within the division.

 

Then trade Pom and Owens to SF for Moore.

 

[Jack Flap]

Probably not in most circumstances.

 

However, the Sox were in a bind with 4-5 starters and had a team that showed enough to be considered playoff bound anyway. They had to get someone.

 

The timing hurt price wise. But hey, if you want to play you got to pay.

 

Pom has good upside, too. He is also cheap and still young enough to improve dramatically.

 

I can't really disagree with any of this. As you say, we needed a starter, and there really weren't many options. I get where Moon is coming from (the long-term view is important as well), but what's done is done, and I definitely have hope for better things from Pomeranz.

[moonslav59]

I can't really disagree with any of this. As you say, we needed a starter, and there really weren't many options. I get where Moon is coming from (the long-term view is important as well), but what's done is done, and I definitely have hope for better things from Pomeranz.

 

I have a lot of hope for Pomeranz as well. That's why I don't play the "blame "game". I really liked Kimbrel when we traded for him too, so even though I hated that deal too, I'm not "blaming" DD for filling a huge hole in our roster. I just thought we overpaid based on what I have seen other teams give up for similar players.

 

Another reason I avoid "blaming" anyone is that I do not know if my suggested alternatives were really viable options. Last winter, I talked a lot about Carrasco, Salazar, Quintana and Sale, but their GMs might have been asking for Betts, Bogey and Moncada for one, so I'd have easily said no to those options. I also suggested options like moving Buch or Kelly to the closer role, but we'll never know how that might have worked out. My theory has been that we should be able to get someone better than Pomeranz had we offered Espi, Swihart, Owens and Johnson. I think many would agree, but until we see an actual name, my theories are just that- theories.

 

I don't like much of what DD has done so far, but we're in the playoffs with a lot of things seemingly going right for us, so how can I "blame" him for getting us to first place from last place?

 

I hated the Pablo, HanRam, Dempster and Masterson signings, but I actually felt Ben was on the right path. His moves were justifiable. He looked to get offense after 2014 and surely would have gotten pitching after 2015 had he been given the chance. He built up the farm, much of which DD used to get Kimbrel, Pom, Zeigler, Hill and others. I don't blame Ben for 3 last place finishes in 4 years.

 

I was critical of of many of Theo's moves, especially after the Nomar trade, but I did not want him or Ben let go. I was the last guy to call for Valantin's removal. I have said I wanted JF gone, but never got into pissing matches about every move he makes. I don't blame him either.

 

I like where we're at right now. It's hard to throw blame when you are one of the top favorites to get to the WS AND you have an excellent farm with a strong core of recent grads as well.

[User Name]

You totally are playing the blame game though. The words above do not match up with your constant whining about those two trades.

[mvp 78]

Moore started 12 games with SF, but he has 3 years left at a pretty cheap cost.

 

I'd rather have him than Pom, and that's why he might have cost more.

 

I'd rather have Pomeranz than Moore who hasn't been the same pitcher since his injury.

[moonslav59]

I'd rather have Pomeranz than Moore who hasn't been the same pitcher since his injury.

 

I'll take the extra year of Moore and project he will return to form.

 

Pomeranz has just 3 months of "form" to "return to". He's injured too.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Pom. I think he will likely win the 3rd slot next year over ERod and Wright/Buch. His contractual cost is low. However, Moore has a longer history of doing very well, and that 3rd year tips the balance for me.

[moonslav59]

You totally are playing the blame game though. The words above do not match up with your constant whining about those two trades.

 

I don't "blame" DD for trying to make us into a contender in one year.

 

I disagree with his choices, but they were based in sound reasoning, so I draw the line at "blame".

 

I am not calling for his removal. I've never said he's doing a bad job. I liked the Ziegler trade. I liked the Carson Smith trade. I'm against big signings like CC, Pablo, HanRam and Price, but I totally understand why we needed to sign a big pitcher.

 

I looked at our roster in the spring and projected a 1st place team that had "less holes and more options to fill those holes than any other AL team". Hoiw can that be called "blame"?

 

Criticism of a few selected moves is not "blame". I guess we can argue semantics, and if you want to view me as "blaming DD for a first place finish", then go ahead.

 

My beef is with the idea that we sacrificed too much of our future for a near market p[aid closer and a SP'er with a limited sample size of success and no track record of longevity. I realize my alternative suggestions are based on conjecture that might be wildly improbable, so that's another reason I do not see myself as laying blame on anyone.

[greenwell]

I'll take the extra year of Moore and project he will return to form.

 

Pomeranz has just 3 months of "form" to "return to". He's injured too.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Pom. I think he will likely win the 3rd slot next year over ERod and Wright/Buch. His contractual cost is low. However, Moore has a longer history of doing very well, and that 3rd year tips the balance for me.

 

I guess I'm missing the 'third year' point. Matt Moore is under contract for $26M over the next three years, Pomeranz is arbitration eligible for the next two. Don't you think if the sox offered Pomeranz Moore's contract he'd jump all over it?

[moonslav59]

I guess I'm missing the 'third year' point. Matt Moore is under contract for $26M over the next three years, Pomeranz is arbitration eligible for the next two. Don't you think if the sox offered Pomeranz Moore's contract he'd jump all over it?

 

I have mentioned the low cost of Pomeranz as a big plus several times.

 

I'd still take Moore at $26M/3, and more importantly, his $2.8M luxury tax figure over 2 arb years of Pomeranz, which will likely count as more than $2.8M a year against the 50% luxury tax this year.

 

Yes, Pom would take $26M/3 right now, as it would likely beat his arb numbers. It's hard to know what he could make that 3rd year, and remember, all of Moore's years are team options, so nothing is guaranteed. If Moore gets hurt or sucks, the contract could go away. So can arb years, but if we signed Pom to $26M/3, it couldn't.

[moonslav59]

I just brought up Moore's name, since he was clearly "available", but we'll never know if he was really an option.

 

Liriano was a much cheaper option, but also not as sure of a bet of being good as Pom was.

 

I was just responding to a post that said nothing else was available.

[Dojji]

Actually the post you're responding to asked what was available that was a better deal than Pomeranz. You definitely haven't established that for either Moore or Liriano.

[moonslav59]

Actually the post you're responding to asked what was available that was a better deal than Pomeranz. You definitely haven't established that for either Moore or Liriano.

 

True- my bad, but Moore is similar and Liriano was much cheaper, but a big gamble that in hindsight worked well for TOR.

[User Name]

I don't "blame" DD for trying to make us into a contender in one year.

 

I disagree with his choices, but they were based in sound reasoning, so I draw the line at "blame".

 

I am not calling for his removal. I've never said he's doing a bad job. I liked the Ziegler trade. I liked the Carson Smith trade. I'm against big signings like CC, Pablo, HanRam and Price, but I totally understand why we needed to sign a big pitcher.

 

I looked at our roster in the spring and projected a 1st place team that had "less holes and more options to fill those holes than any other AL team". Hoiw can that be called "blame"?

 

Criticism of a few selected moves is not "blame". I guess we can argue semantics, and if you want to view me as "blaming DD for a first place finish", then go ahead.

 

My beef is with the idea that we sacrificed too much of our future for a near market p[aid closer and a SP'er with a limited sample size of success and no track record of longevity. I realize my alternative suggestions are based on conjecture that might be wildly improbable, so that's another reason I do not see myself as laying blame on anyone.

 

Except that we didn't. The position player side of the farm is still stacked, and Espinoza for Pomeranz still has a high likelihood of benefitting the Red Sox due to pitcher attrition rates. We also still have Kopech and some kid we drafted this year.....

[moonslav59]

Except that we didn't. The position player side of the farm is still stacked, and Espinoza for Pomeranz still has a high likelihood of benefitting the Red Sox due to pitcher attrition rates. We also still have Kopech and some kid we drafted this year.....

 

If you don't call Espi, margot, Guerra and Allen "much", then I'm at a loss for words.

 

I didn't say "most" of our future- just "much".

 

Plus, it's not about me wanting to hold onto all our prospects. nothing is further from the truth. Many of my suggestions involved trading much more than what DD has traded already.

 

In general, I don't trade several top prospects for A RP'er, especially one being paid near FA money anyways. just sign one.

 

The Pom trade was a trade of an uncertain long-away future for 2.3 years of cost-controlled 3/4 slot pitching. I totally get why we did it. We had a serious need in our rotation, just like when we traded for Peavy. I'm not blaming DD for doing it. I didn't blame Ben for trading Iggy. That's not the same as disagreeing or wanting better, as long as I was willing to give up more.

[mvp 78]

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=642770#/career/R/hitting/2016/ALL

 

Javier Guerra absolutely stinks. Red Sox sold high on a middling prospect. Good for them.

 

I don't think anyone lost sleep over losing Logan Allen either.

[a700hitter]

All of our prospects are not gold. Most will not make it. DD's talent has been that he can separate the wheat from the chaff.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I have a lot of hope for Pomeranz as well. That's why I don't play the "blame "game". I really liked Kimbrel when we traded for him too, so even though I hated that deal too, I'm not "blaming" DD for filling a huge hole in our roster. I just thought we overpaid based on what I have seen other teams give up for similar players.

 

Another reason I avoid "blaming" anyone is that I do not know if my suggested alternatives were really viable options. Last winter, I talked a lot about Carrasco, Salazar, Quintana and Sale, but their GMs might have been asking for Betts, Bogey and Moncada for one, so I'd have easily said no to those options. I also suggested options like moving Buch or Kelly to the closer role, but we'll never know how that might have worked out. My theory has been that we should be able to get someone better than Pomeranz had we offered Espi, Swihart, Owens and Johnson. I think many would agree, but until we see an actual name, my theories are just that- theories.

 

I don't like much of what DD has done so far, but we're in the playoffs with a lot of things seemingly going right for us, so how can I "blame" him for getting us to first place from last place?

 

I hated the Pablo, HanRam, Dempster and Masterson signings, but I actually felt Ben was on the right path. His moves were justifiable. He looked to get offense after 2014 and surely would have gotten pitching after 2015 had he been given the chance. He built up the farm, much of which DD used to get Kimbrel, Pom, Zeigler, Hill and others. I don't blame Ben for 3 last place finishes in 4 years.

 

I was critical of of many of Theo's moves, especially after the Nomar trade, but I did not want him or Ben let go. I was the last guy to call for Valantin's removal. I have said I wanted JF gone, but never got into pissing matches about every move he makes. I don't blame him either.

 

I like where we're at right now. It's hard to throw blame when you are one of the top favorites to get to the WS AND you have an excellent farm with a strong core of recent grads as well.

 

Based on everything that I've read and heard, it sounded like Sale or Quintana may have been available if some team was willing to "overpay" drastically, but you can find plenty of info that shows that Carrasco or Salazar were not available at all. Cleveland made it pretty clear that they were trying to add hitting last winter to "win now." They weren't listening on Salazar or Carrasco and they certainly weren't looking for "prospects."

 

There were some rumors last summer that teams in contention were calling Cleveland to ask about their availability and they flat out said, "No."

 

Heyman also reported that Chicago insisted rhat Jackie Bradley had to be the centerpiece when the Sox called about Sale and that ended the talks.

[S5Dewey]

Heyman also reported that Chicago insisted rhat Jackie Bradley had to be the centerpiece when the Sox called about Sale and that ended the talks.

 

If that's so - and I'm not doubting it - it should put to rest any thoughts of JBJ being traded over the winter.

[Eddy Ballgame]

If that's so - and I'm not doubting it - it should put to rest any thoughts of JBJ being traded over the winter.

 

Supposedly a lot of teams approached the Sox about Bradley last winter and they said he wasn't available.

 

Here's one article:

 

http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/9/2/12769534/chris-sale-trade-jose-quintana-red-sox-white-sox-jackie-bradley-jr

[Palodios]

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=642770#/career/R/hitting/2016/ALL

 

Javier Guerra absolutely stinks. Red Sox sold high on a middling prospect. Good for them.

 

I don't think anyone lost sleep over losing Logan Allen either.

 

My problem with the Kimbrel trade was he just added Asujae and Allen in as throw-ins to a deal that really didn't need throw-ins. Asuajae had a .870 OPS in AAA this year as a middle infielder with some speed.

 

Meanwhile, the Yankees grabbed Chapman for practically nothing.

[sk7326]

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=642770#/career/R/hitting/2016/ALL

 

Javier Guerra absolutely stinks. Red Sox sold high on a middling prospect. Good for them.

 

I don't think anyone lost sleep over losing Logan Allen either.

 

A horrible season in a hitter's league. Clearly did not pounce on a pretty good Age 19 season. He's still pretty young - but yeah this was not good.

[sk7326]

With Kimbrel, burning a couple of good prospects (and all you can do is the valuation at the time) for a reliever makes me puke in my mouth a little - but if you do it, a stud under contract is the guy to do it for. Margot sure looks like a starting CF, granted it would never have happened here.

[Eddy Ballgame]

My problem with the Kimbrel trade was he just added Asujae and Allen in as throw-ins to a deal that really didn't need throw-ins. Asuajae had a .870 OPS in AAA this year as a middle infielder with some speed.

 

Meanwhile, the Yankees grabbed Chapman for practically nothing.

 

Then again, Kimbrel hadn't just been accused of beating his wife, either.

[Bellhorn04]

Then again, Kimbrel hadn't just been accused of beating his wife, either.

 

Yeah, it was the kind of 'opportunistic' transaction that doesn't happen too often, thankfully.

[S5Dewey]

Then again, Kimbrel hadn't just been accused of beating his wife, either.

 

As a Sox fan I'm somewhat proud that "my" team has shied away from the known PED abusers and wife-beaters. And I hope they keep doing it.

[S5Dewey]

Yeah, it was the kind of 'opportunistic' transaction that doesn't happen too often, thankfully.

 

Nobody would ever say that the Yankees aren't opportunistic.

[mvp 78]

My problem with the Kimbrel trade was he just added Asujae and Allen in as throw-ins to a deal that really didn't need throw-ins. Asuajae had a .870 OPS in AAA this year as a middle infielder with some speed.

 

Meanwhile, the Yankees grabbed Chapman for practically nothing.

 

How do you know that the "throw ins" weren't needed?

[moonslav59]

http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=642770#/career/R/hitting/2016/ALL

 

Javier Guerra absolutely stinks. Red Sox sold high on a middling prospect. Good for them.

 

I don't think anyone lost sleep over losing Logan Allen either.

 

Some of you give up on guys too easily- after just a small sample size. Guerra is still ranked in the top 100 by one service.

 

Allen may or may not amount to much, but Margot is still highly ranked. My position is, we could/should have added to the packager and gotten a starter.

[moonslav59]

Based on everything that I've read and heard, it sounded like Sale or Quintana may have been available if some team was willing to "overpay" drastically, but you can find plenty of info that shows that Carrasco or Salazar were not available at all. Cleveland made it pretty clear that they were trying to add hitting last winter to "win now." They weren't listening on Salazar or Carrasco and they certainly weren't looking for "prospects."

 

There were some rumors last summer that teams in contention were calling Cleveland to ask about their availability and they flat out said, "No."

 

Heyman also reported that Chicago insisted rhat Jackie Bradley had to be the centerpiece when the Sox called about Sale and that ended the talks.

 

I understand that, and that is why I suggested a three way deal that would have sent Todd Frazier to CLE (the ML bat they wanted) plus maybe Swihart, Holt or some ML ready prospects like Owens, Johnson or near ready Kopech. Then, we'd send farther away prospects to Cincy.

 

I realize this could all be a dream. I have said this many times. That's a big reason I don't blame our GMs for the moves they make. I never know what other options were out there. Maybe they made the best moves they could. I get that.

 

However, based on other deals made over the past few years, I think we overpaid for a RP'er and largely unproven starter.

[moonslav59]

Supposedly a lot of teams approached the Sox about Bradley last winter and they said he wasn't available.

 

Here's one article:

 

http://www.overthemonster.com/2016/9/2/12769534/chris-sale-trade-jose-quintana-red-sox-white-sox-jackie-bradley-jr

 

The rumor last winter was that CLE wanted JBJ as part of any talks for one of their starters.