The Benintendi Thread

[Dojji]

Even ignoring that nonsense, nobody is "right" yet. In fact it's impossible to know who's "right" until the END of NEXT YEAR at the earliest. If he has a massive regression at any time over the next year plus, people are going to blame the fact that he was "rushed." Just like they did with JBJ and for the same reason.

 

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who recognizes just how short the attention span of the average baseball fan is. It's like you guys haven't spent years and decades seeing all this before. And the irony is I'm probably one of the younger fans on the site.

 

Benintendi is enjoying a surge of success against pitchers who haven't figured him out yet. Good that he can do this to big leaguers, but it means nothing else. Not yet.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Dojji

[Nick]

But hold on a minute.... height & weight aren't considered tools? /s/

 

Only in the porn industry..

[Nick]

Even if bat wasn't ready, his hair was......he has major league full set of hair....ok I'm back on medication. Ready to play nice.

[Nick]

I'm giving Pomeranz one more chance.....

[mvp 78]

Even ignoring that nonsense, nobody is "right" yet. In fact it's impossible to know who's "right" until the END of NEXT YEAR at the earliest. If he has a massive regression at any time over the next year plus, people are going to blame the fact that he was "rushed." Just like they did with JBJ and for the same reason.

 

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who recognizes just how short the attention span of the average baseball fan is. It's like you guys haven't spent years and decades seeing all this before. And the irony is I'm probably one of the younger fans on the site.

 

Benintendi is enjoying a surge of success against pitchers who haven't figured him out yet. Good that he can do this to big leaguers, but it means nothing else. Not yet.

 

That's a Panic Statement if I've ever heard one.

[User Name]

That's a Panic Statement if I've ever heard one.

 

Pure gold.

[Bellhorn04]

Even ignoring that nonsense, nobody is "right" yet. In fact it's impossible to know who's "right" until the END of NEXT YEAR at the earliest. If he has a massive regression at any time over the next year plus, people are going to blame the fact that he was "rushed." Just like they did with JBJ and for the same reason.

 

And nobody really knows for certain if any of JBJ's problems were a direct result of being 'rushed', or if he would have had the same learning curve regardless.

[User Name]

....but you play the percentages. The percentage play in both cases was letting kids get the proper seasoning and calling them up when appropriate, not to bum-rush a positional need.

[moonslav59]

You were still wrong, you are still wrong, and this isn't strictly an "A and B" type conversation, as you can see from the number of posters participating in it.

 

But in your specific case, you've been pounding your chest about being "right" that they called him up because he was ready. Some of us posit he was called up because they were desperate after whiffing on Beltran. What is the misconstrued argument here?

 

Straw man: "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent".

 

1) I have not said "I was right". I even went out of my way saying it's nearly impossible to judge who is right or wrong on "readiness", because the sample sizes used to judge a player;'s adjustment period is both too small and within a context of speculation about what might have happened if we waited longer or shorter to call them up.

 

2) Of course, there is gray area here, but my position was that I felt he "was Ml ready or very close to ML eady, and the second Sox management felt he was ready, we should call him up." You have misrepresented my position and that is "strawman" to the tee.

 

3) I have never said anything about our poor LF play not being a factor. I wouldn't call it "desperation" to try and fill our biggest weakness with a promising "ready" or "extremely near ready" LF'er within our system. That is a separate argument that I have not touched on much, so again, you are constructing a false position I have not argued.

 

4) You guys would have been fine had he been called up in September. You really think 3-4 weeks makes that much of a difference? Either he's ready or he's not. Do GMs sometimes call up players a little earlier than they might have otherwise chosen to do out of need? Of course they do! I have never argued otherwise. Whether it's called "desperation" of not is something to be debated, but that depends on how close you or I think Beni was to being "ready".

 

Nobody is right or wrong here, and I never said I was right about whether he is truly ready or not. I said I wanted him called up the second Sox management determined he was ready. I guess they felt he was ready enough, because he's here now. That doesn't make me right, but it doesn't make you right either, and no tiny sample size is going to prove anything either.

 

I said I was not "gloating, because Beni could go o for 22". I'm sure if he does, you'd claim you were right. Therein, IMO, lies the difference between you and me.

 

[moonslav59]

And nobody really knows for certain if any of JBJ's problems were a direct result of being 'rushed', or if he would have had the same learning curve regardless.

 

Exactly. He may have done even worse had we waited 1-2 years more.

 

Players go into slumps. Players struggle to adjust to new environment. You try to gauge a players fortitude to adjust and see how he adjusted to previous promotions, but nobody ever truly knows how a player will adjust to the move to the ML level, or if the player just got lucky or unlucky by having a hot streak or cold streak occur just at the time of promotion.

 

[User Name]

Straw man: "A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent".

 

1) I have not said "I was right". I even went out of my way saying it's nearly impossible to judge who is right or wrong on "readiness", because the sample sizes used to judge a player;'s adjustment period is both too small and within a context of speculation about what might have happened if we waited longer or shorter to call them up.

 

2) Of course, there is gray area here, but my position was that I felt he "was Ml ready or very close to ML eady, and the second Sox management felt he was ready, we should call him up." You have misrepresented my position and that is "strawman" to the tee.

 

3) I have never said anything about our poor LF play not being a factor. I wouldn't call it "desperation" to try and fill our biggest weakness with a promising "ready" or "extremely near ready" LF'er within our system. That is a separate argument that I have not touched on much, so again, you are constructing a false position I have not argued.

 

4) You guys would have been fine had he been called up in September. You really think 3-4 weeks makes that much of a difference? Either he's ready or he's not. Do GMs sometimes call up players a little earlier than they might have otherwise chosen to do out of need? Of course they do! I have never argued otherwise. Whether it's called "desperation" of not is something to be debated, but that depends on how close you or I think Beni was to being "ready".

 

Nobody is right or wrong here, and I never said I was right about whether he is truly ready or not. I said I wanted him called up the second Sox management determined he was ready. I guess they felt he was ready enough, because he's here now. That doesn't make me right, but it doesn't make you right either, and no tiny sample size is going to prove anything either.

 

I said I was not "gloating, because Beni could go o for 22". I'm sure if he does, you'd claim you were right. Therein, IMO, lies the difference between you and me.

 

 

The whole "we were ridiculed because of X" is a form of humblebragging and chest-pounding. Own it.

[SoxnCycles]

i really dont think either. i think we were trying to improve a "weakness". mostly due to injury. but i dont think i would use the word "panic". but thats just my opinion.

 

Evidently, some folks can't grasp that concept.

 

It probably would've been nice if Beni has some more time in the minors.

Injuries and not getting Beltran helped them decide to give the kid a try.

 

Nothing "desperate", "panicky" or whatever other dumb adverb one feels the need to use, about it.

[User Name]

We can grasp the concept, but it's a stupid concept, unless that was the plan all along, and that is the topic of discussion.

[Slasher9]

We can grasp the concept, but it's a stupid concept, unless that was the plan all along, and that is the topic of discussion.

 

when does a plan become a plan? do you expect that the Sox FO has 2019 already planned out to each 162 games and who is in the lineup each and everyday? or do you think a 25 man roster can be a fluid thing and sometimes a GM needs to make moves "on the fly" without having it planned out 2 years in advance?

i think i need to know what UN considers an acceptable amount of time for "planning" so we can be sure to call anything under that amount of time a "panic move".....

[SoxnCycles]

when does a plan become a plan? do you expect that the Sox FO has 2019 already planned out to each 162 games and who is in the lineup each and everyday? or do you think a 25 man roster can be a fluid thing and sometimes a GM needs to make moves "on the fly" without having it planned out 2 years in advance?

i think i need to know what UN considers an acceptable amount of time for "planning" so we can be sure to call anything under that amount of time a "panic move".....

 

Good luck with that...

[moonslav59]

Right. I'm thinking Holt then?

 

soxprospects.com shows 12 pitchers...

 

5 starters plus...

 

RH Craig Kimbrel

RH Brad Ziegler

RH Junichi Tazawa

RH Matt Barnes

LH Robbie Ross

LH Fernando Abad

RH Clay Buchholz

 

Sub Holaday for Hanigan and Holt for Hernandez and you got our 25.

 

[mvp 78]

I said I was not "gloating, because Beni could go o for 22". I'm sure if he does, you'd claim you were right. Therein, IMO, lies the difference between you and me.

 

 

If he goes 0-22, I hope that Farrell doesn't let him languish on the bench. Now that he's here, he must play every day.

[User Name]

^That's what I'm thinking.

[mvp 78]

^That's what I'm thinking.

 

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2016/05/12/john-farrells-blake-swihart

 

[SoxnCycles]

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2016/05/12/john-farrells-blake-swihart

 

 

They can't demote Benintendi, they're desperate.

[sk7326]

Now was Benintendi ready? Who knows - they have given him a lot of responsibility very quickly and he has adjusted. I think this was always possible - the org made their denials, but that's what you do. Maybe they were hard on Beltran and missed out - but he can barely move anymore.

 

I think to address earlier points - while it is fair to wonder whether the treatment of Bradley held him back, I'd counter that Bradley had conclusively proven he can hit minor league pitching. A demotion for him - given what he had to work on - was not going to accomplish anything, aside from giving him a potential sense of senioritis. His adjustments had to take place at the big league level.

 

Benintendi is a different kettle of fish - and as Dojji notes, he will struggle eventually - because he plays baseball for a living, and all baseball players go through those patches. The org bet is that he has the makeup and physical talent to figure that stuff out when it comes up. Everything about his brief minor league career backs that sentiment. What a week with him with the big league club shows to me - fairly conclusively - that he at least physically and skill-wise belongs in the show ... he does not look overmatched. (well, aside from his 2nd career AB in the bottom 9 against a fireballer closer sort)

[mvp 78]

They can't demote Benintendi, they're desperate.

 

That's the exact reason Farrell would want to demote him if he went 0-22.

[Nick]

Now was Benintendi ready? Who knows - they have given him a lot of responsibility very quickly and he has adjusted. I think this was always possible - the org made their denials, but that's what you do. Maybe they were hard on Beltran and missed out - but he can barely move anymore.

 

I think to address earlier points - while it is fair to wonder whether the treatment of Bradley held him back, I'd counter that Bradley had conclusively proven he can hit minor league pitching. A demotion for him - given what he had to work on - was not going to accomplish anything, aside from giving him a potential sense of senioritis. His adjustments had to take place at the big league level.

 

Benintendi is a different kettle of fish - and as Dojji notes, he will struggle eventually - because he plays baseball for a living, and all baseball players go through those patches. The org bet is that he has the makeup and physical talent to figure that stuff out when it comes up. Everything about his brief minor league career backs that sentiment. What a week with him with the big league club shows to me - fairly conclusively - that he at least physically and skill-wise belongs in the show ... he does not look overmatched. (well, aside from his 2nd career AB in the bottom 9 against a fireballer closer sort)

 

but the third strike was 4" outside is what he told his dad......dad replied you cant let the umpire dtermine your fate with two strkes.....yep umpiring sucks.....do you ever notice Brock Holt never gets a break when it comes to balls and strikes? every pitch is 3-0 count for him....

[sk7326]

but the third strike was 4" outside is what he told his dad......dad replied you cant let the umpire dtermine your fate with two strkes.....yep umpiring sucks.....do you ever notice Brock Holt never gets a break when it comes to balls and strikes? every pitch is 3-0 count for him....

 

Oh I am the leader of the "automated balls and strikes" movement/cult

[Nick]

Luck, not ready, panic move, I really don't know what the hell I'm talking about.....

 

BUT HE'S HELPED US WIN COUPLE OF GAMES....that is the point, no?

[mvp 78]

Oh I am the leader of the "automated balls and strikes" movement/cult

 

My name is Legion; for we are many.

[bosoxmal]

Benintendi reminds me a bit of Yastrzemski at the plate. They’re about the same height and weight and have similar swings. Benintendi’s swing is a bit smoother and compact, and he has yet to fill out. Of course, Yastrzemski tinkered with his swing a lot during his career, so it’s hard to come up with one single typical Yaz swing.

 

Yastrzemski:

 

Benintendi:

[sk7326]

My name is Legion; for we are many.

 

maybe i am too brash to say i am the leader - but i definitely am a board member

[a700hitter]

Benintendi reminds me a bit of Yastrzemski at the plate. They’re about the same height and weight and have similar swings. Benintendi’s swing is a bit smoother and compact, and he has yet to fill out. Of course, Yastrzemski tinkered with his swing a lot during his career, so it’s hard to come up with one single typical Yaz swing.

 

Yastrzemski:

 

Benintendi:

His physical stature and athleticism is very reminiscent of Yaz.

[mvp 78]

maybe i am too brash to say i am the leader - but i definitely am a board member

 

Oh you can have it. I'm on too many Boards as it is. Just spread so thin right now.