The Benintendi Thread

[Maxbialystock]

I looked at the Sox active roster which right now lists four outfielders--Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, and Holt. Total salary for all four is a tad over $2M--by far the most cost effective MLB outfield on a single team in a long time.

 

Dombrowski gets credit for bringing Benintendi up, but I am less sure that he is the ace GM some say he is. The Tigers fired him and are better since he left.

 

He didn't need to do much to fix the lineup which already was going to be very good. The best improvements were moving HanRam to 1B, which was inevitable before Dombrowski got here, and the injury to Sandoval. Sandy Leon is a nice surprise at C, but the Sox got him last March, before Dombrowski. The Sox have the best overall lineup in MLB and very little credit goes to Dombrowski.

 

His report card should be based on fixing the pitching, and so far that is a mixed bag. Price right now is paid the 3d or 4th highest salary in the history of MLB and he sure ain't living up to it. Pomeranz just might work out, but at the cost of a highly regarded minor leaguer (I personally thought the deal made sense, which suggests it probably did not). Our two best starters are Wright and Porcello, for which Dombrowski gets no credit. ERod, estabished here before Dombrowski arrived, is finally looking like last year and could become our 3d best starter ahead of Price. Dombrowski made the decision to keep Buchholz at $12M/year, and that has not paid off. Kimbrel, despite some issues, is a plus. Abad is a firm minus. Ziegler is a mixed bag.

 

Feel free to disagree.

Edited August 17, 2016 by Maxbialystock

[Dojji]

I looked at the Sox active roster which right now lists four outfielders--Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, and Holt. Total salary for all four is a tad over $2M--by far the most cost effective MLB outfield on a single team in a long time.

 

Dombrowski gets credit for bringing Benintendi up, but I am less sure that he is the ace GM some say he is. The Tigers fired him and are better since he left.

 

The Tigers are still enjoying the fruit of DD's labor.

 

If you want to know what DD did for Detroit, take a look and compare the difference between the 2003 Tigers and the 2006 Tigers. In jusrt 3 years DD took a team that had won less than 50 games and turned them into a team that made the playoffs a lot more often than it didn't. The Tigers were a powerhouse for the last decade becaose of DD. Did everything he tried work, no, but for a team like the Tigers, which has money but isn't the richest or most powerful team by any stretch of the imagination, and which had had the worst stretch of years in its entire history before DD signed on, what he did in Detroit is pretty impressive

[mvp 78]

Dombrowski gets credit for bringing Benintendi up, but I am less sure that he is the ace GM some say he is. The Tigers fired him and are better since he left.

 

The Tigers were a perennial doormat before Dombrowski came on. Not really sure they are "better" without him.

[mvp 78]

The Tigers are still enjoying the fruit of DD's labor.

 

If you want to know what DD did for Detroit, take a look and compare the difference between the 2003 Tigers and the 2006 Tigers. In jusrt 3 years DD took a team that had won less than 50 games and turned them into a team that made the playoffs a lot more often than it didn't. The Tigers were a powerhouse for the last decade becaose of DD. Did everything he tried work, no, but for a team like the Tigers, which has money but isn't the richest or most powerful team by any stretch of the imagination, and which had had the worst stretch of years in its entire history before DD signed on, what he did in Detroit is pretty impressive

 

The Tigers biggest issue was an owner who wanted to have a say in which players were to be signed (hello Fielder overpay). The owner there was actively going against the GM's wishes. For now, it looks like Boston's ownership group is just giving Dombrowski free reign.

[Maxbialystock]

All good comments on Dombrowski. I was simply pointing to the fact that last year the Tigers were losers and this year they are vying for a playoff spot.

 

My standard for good executive management would have to be the Cardinals who seem to be competitive every year while also getting a WS (or at least to the WS) every now and then. They also don't spend a king's ransom on players. ST Louis is a city like Detroit that is losing population steadily, but they love their Cardinals and go to the games in large part because of the Cardinals ability to stay competitive.

 

I think the Sox in the John Henry era overall have done pretty well. Granted, they spend a lot on players, but they are also in the same division with the Yankees, who not only spend more on players, but are more than happy to take Sox players away with higher offers. Epstein and Cherington and the guy before Epstein brought 3 WS to Boston after the 86 year drought. Epstein might end a longer drought with the Cubs.

[Spudboy]

He'll be a plus defender in LF sometime next year. He just needs the reps. My only point is that he's not there right now.

 

Well I guess that I can agree with that.

 

However, whatever stadium he plays in his arm will have to play better than Damon's.

 

Currently it is not.

[Dojji]

Left field is probably the place you can play where arm matters the least. If the worst thing you can say about Benintendi is that he doesn't have a strong throwing arm, I'll take that if the rest of the skillset is good.

[mvp 78]

Well I guess that I can agree with that.

 

However, whatever stadium he plays in his arm will have to play better than Damon's.

 

Currently it is not.

 

His arm is better than Damon's. I think you're misremembering how bad Damon's arm was.

[User Name]

I looked at the Sox active roster which right now lists four outfielders--Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, and Holt. Total salary for all four is a tad over $2M--by far the most cost effective MLB outfield on a single team in a long time.

 

Dombrowski gets credit for bringing Benintendi up, but I am less sure that he is the ace GM some say he is. The Tigers fired him and are better since he left.

 

He didn't need to do much to fix the lineup which already was going to be very good. The best improvements were moving HanRam to 1B, which was inevitable before Dombrowski got here, and the injury to Sandoval. Sandy Leon is a nice surprise at C, but the Sox got him last March, before Dombrowski. The Sox have the best overall lineup in MLB and very little credit goes to Dombrowski.

 

His report card should be based on fixing the pitching, and so far that is a mixed bag. Price right now is paid the 3d or 4th highest salary in the history of MLB and he sure ain't living up to it. Pomeranz just might work out, but at the cost of a highly regarded minor leaguer (I personally thought the deal made sense, which suggests it probably did not). Our two best starters are Wright and Porcello, for which Dombrowski gets no credit. ERod, estabished here before Dombrowski arrived, is finally looking like last year and could become our 3d best starter ahead of Price. Dombrowski made the decision to keep Buchholz at $12M/year, and that has not paid off. Kimbrel, despite some issues, is a plus. Abad is a firm minus. Ziegler is a mixed bag.

 

Feel free to disagree.

 

So you're subtracting the credit from DD because the Tigers are "better without him" even though they are literally the same team he left plus Zimmerman, but you're also subtracting credit from DD because he's "reaping the fruits from someone else's labor". Be consistent.

[sk7326]

I looked at the Sox active roster which right now lists four outfielders--Betts, JBJ, Benintendi, and Holt. Total salary for all four is a tad over $2M--by far the most cost effective MLB outfield on a single team in a long time.

 

Dombrowski gets credit for bringing Benintendi up, but I am less sure that he is the ace GM some say he is. The Tigers fired him and are better since he left.

 

He didn't need to do much to fix the lineup which already was going to be very good. The best improvements were moving HanRam to 1B, which was inevitable before Dombrowski got here, and the injury to Sandoval. Sandy Leon is a nice surprise at C, but the Sox got him last March, before Dombrowski. The Sox have the best overall lineup in MLB and very little credit goes to Dombrowski.

 

His report card should be based on fixing the pitching, and so far that is a mixed bag. Price right now is paid the 3d or 4th highest salary in the history of MLB and he sure ain't living up to it. Pomeranz just might work out, but at the cost of a highly regarded minor leaguer (I personally thought the deal made sense, which suggests it probably did not). Our two best starters are Wright and Porcello, for which Dombrowski gets no credit. ERod, estabished here before Dombrowski arrived, is finally looking like last year and could become our 3d best starter ahead of Price. Dombrowski made the decision to keep Buchholz at $12M/year, and that has not paid off. Kimbrel, despite some issues, is a plus. Abad is a firm minus. Ziegler is a mixed bag.

 

Feel free to disagree.

 

Well with Detroit he had an aging team with no real upside - and the team was allowed to bottom out to create their window starting in 2006. (his early Detroit teams were some of the worst of all time) And he made the moves (most notably the Andrew Miller for Miguel Cabrera one) which cemented a significant championship window. He made some shorter sighted moves after that - due to ownership priorities - and was never full able to figure out the bullpen construction thing ... but it is hard to go against what he has accomplished.

 

The key thing for him in Boston is that he is where the buck stops. The Red Sox have significantly simplified their decision authority vis a vis baseball matters - and that helps a lot. IF the Sox over the longer term can continue to keep the smart folks from the past decade here, then you could have the best of all worlds. Dombrowski has had a solid year - not a disaster by any stretch, but not coming up aces like Epstein's 2003 or anything. But that they did roll the dice on Benintendi as opposed to overpay for a warmed over Jay Bruce is encouraging.

[Spudboy]

Left field is probably the place you can play where arm matters the least. If the worst thing you can say about Benintendi is that he doesn't have a strong throwing arm, I'll take that if the rest of the skillset is good.

 

True, to an extent. But go back and watch his throw to the plate last night.

[Maxbialystock]

So you're subtracting the credit from DD because the Tigers are "better without him" even though they are literally the same team he left plus Zimmerman, but you're also subtracting credit from DD because he's "reaping the fruits from someone else's labor". Be consistent.

 

I did say, "feel free to disagree," mostly because I don't know much about Dombrowski. So I'm fine with people saying he resurrected the Tigers. Good for him.

 

I did however, provide specific comments on his acquisitions and on people already in place and I am less sure than others he has made any especially good moves.

 

Cherington, for example, deserves censure for acquiring Sandoval and not keeping Lester, but he also made that great deal with the Dodgers in 2012 which, combined with other deals, led to the WS in 2013.

[mvp 78]

2012 wasn't a "great deal." They basically gutted the team and handed over some top stars to help an NL team win 3 pennants in a row.

[Maxbialystock]

2012 wasn't a "great deal." They basically gutted the team and handed over some top stars to help an NL team win 3 pennants in a row.

 

Are you serious? AGon absolutely was and is a plus for the Dodgers even though Boston wasn't his kind of town. But Crawford and Beckett were busts and high cost busts at that. In Crawford's last year in Tampa he scored 110 runs. He scored 65 the next year for us and has never scored more than 62 in a year for the Dodgers. He makes the Yankees insane contract for Ellsbury look almost smart because Crawford has been getting $20M/year from the Dodgers (and 2 years from us). Worse still is Beckett who was 8-14 in his 2+ seasons with the Dodgers.

 

That deal dumped a bunch of salary and made possible the acquisitions that led to the 2013 success.

[sk7326]

Are you serious? AGon absolutely was and is a plus for the Dodgers even though Boston wasn't his kind of town. But Crawford and Beckett were busts and high cost busts at that. In Crawford's last year in Tampa he scored 110 runs. He scored 65 the next year for us and has never scored more than 62 in a year for the Dodgers. He makes the Yankees insane contract for Ellsbury look almost smart because Crawford has been getting $20M/year from the Dodgers (and 2 years from us). Worse still is Beckett who was 8-14 in his 2+ seasons with the Dodgers.

 

That deal dumped a bunch of salary and made possible the acquisitions that led to the 2013 success.

 

Bunk. The acquisitons were made possible because the Red Sox - who have a mint erected on Yawkey Way - decided it was possible. They wanted to clear payroll - which is a fair priority for an org that likes making money (e.g. all of them). I do give Cherington a lot of credit - that what was an ownership mandated fire sale actually got them a couple of reasonably good arms - they were able to turn the deal into an (at the time - which is all you can really look at given imperfect information) acceptable baseball deal is a credit to the GM. Now neither De La Rosa and Webster worked out (in particular they kept deluding themselves into thinking Webster could start instead of developing him as a reliever) ... that happens, but that was not the sort of deal where you should be able to get a couple of Top 100 sort of prospects.

[Maxbialystock]

Let me hasten to add that I am by no means an expert on GM skills. That's why I said, "feel free to disagree" and why I have no quarrel with those who say Dombrowski helped the Tigers.

 

On the other hand, we can all agree he was fired by the Tigers. And we can maybe at least discuss the moves he made since coming to Boston.

[sk7326]

Let me hasten to add that I am by no means an expert on GM skills. That's why I said, "feel free to disagree" and why I have no quarrel with those who say Dombrowski helped the Tigers.

 

On the other hand, we can all agree he was fired by the Tigers. And we can maybe at least discuss the moves he made since coming to Boston.

 

He left - but they hired his right hand man, who had been his right hand man since the Miami days. So it might not have been as simple as a rebuke of his work there. I suspect it was simply that his successor was cheaper and they wouldn't have to change the infrastructure.

[Maxbialystock]

Bunk. The acquisitons were made possible because the Red Sox - who have a mint erected on Yawkey Way - decided it was possible. They wanted to clear payroll - which is a fair priority for an org that likes making money (e.g. all of them). I do give Cherington a lot of credit - that what was an ownership mandated fire sale actually got them a couple of reasonably good arms - they were able to turn the deal into an (at the time - which is all you can really look at given imperfect information) acceptable baseball deal is a credit to the GM. Now neither De La Rosa and Webster worked out (in particular they kept deluding themselves into thinking Webster could start instead of developing him as a reliever) ... that happens, but that was not the sort of deal where you should be able to get a couple of Top 100 sort of prospects.

 

How can you say "bunk" and then agree the fire sale was a smart deal? If you want to say Cherington doesn't get all the credit, I agree. But he was the GM of record, which is why he also gets credit for not re-signing Lester (or Lackey) and for signing Sandoval and HanRam. I'm sure Lucchino also gets some credit/blame for those deals.

[Slasher9]

DD's moves since taking the reigns in Boston are all questionable.

[Spudboy]

DD's moves since taking the reigns in Boston are all questionable.

 

I have liked each move as they happened but it's easy to see that none of them have paid the dividends that were anticipated.

 

Carson Smith going on the DL out of camp was foreboding. Then he came back and blew up his arm. Lovely. None of the others have been paying consistent dividends. Yet.

[sk7326]

How can you say "bunk" and then agree the fire sale was a smart deal? If you want to say Cherington doesn't get all the credit, I agree. But he was the GM of record, which is why he also gets credit for not re-signing Lester (or Lackey) and for signing Sandoval and HanRam. I'm sure Lucchino also gets some credit/blame for those deals.

 

I had no opinion on the fire sale - Cherington did a good job making it somewhat adequate return ... but it did not suddenly open up budget or create any magic for 2013. Victorino's miracle season and the team just being healthy for once had more to do with it than anything.

[Bellhorn04]

DD's moves since taking the reigns in Boston are all questionable.

 

I think the moves have been pretty good in general. The old bugaboos of injury and underperformance really are nasty.

[mvp 78]

DD's moves since taking the reigns in Boston are all questionable.

 

Chris Young - Good Deal

Carson Smith - Good Deal

Sandy Leon Re-signed - Good Deal

Exercised Clay's Option - No Brainer

Traded Garin Checchini for cash - Good Deal

 

You can question Price over and over, that's fine. Kimbrel has been good when healthy. Pomeranz pitched fine last time out. I think the catching staff needs to learn how he should pitch.

[mvp 78]

I had no opinion on the fire sale - Cherington did a good job making it somewhat adequate return ... but it did not suddenly open up budget or create any magic for 2013. Victorino's miracle season and the team just being healthy for once had more to do with it than anything.

 

People thought it was a great deal at the time because Webster and DeLaRosa were included in it. Five years later, DeLaRosa is a bottom of the rotation guy and Webster is currently pitching in Korea.

[a700hitter]

People thought it was a great deal at the time because Webster and DeLaRosa were included in it. Five years later, DeLaRosa is a bottom of the rotation guy and Webster is currently pitching in Korea.

yes, I remember. LOL! They were trying to credit Ben with picking off the Fodgers top prospects. All of the players in the deal amounted to little more than a bag of balls. The great part of that deal was disposing of Crawford (top of the list), Beckett(next most important). In order to get that done, we had to shop off a very good player in AGon, but it was all worth it.

[mvp 78]

yes, I remember. LOL! They were trying to credit Ben with picking off the Fodgers top prospects. All of the players in the deal amounted to little more than a bag of balls. The great part of that deal was disposing of Crawford (top of the list), Beckett(next most important). In order to get that done, we had to shop off a very good player in AGon, but it was all worth it.

 

Beckett pitched well for the Dodgers down the stretch in 2012. He was fine for them while he was healthy.

[a700hitter]

Beckett pitched well for the Dodgers down the stretch in 2012. He was fine for them while he was healthy.

Yep, I wasn't thrilled to ship him off, but he was doing the alternate healthy year thing and his long term health was in doubt. I think he pitched a no-hitter for the Dodgers.

[sk7326]

People thought it was a great deal at the time because Webster and DeLaRosa were included in it. Five years later, DeLaRosa is a bottom of the rotation guy and Webster is currently pitching in Korea.

 

They were both good prospects - neither worked out ... it happens. Considering the Red Sox were practically giving them away - to get something with a reasonable probability of return was good. Almost all coverage of the 2011-12 seasons in retrospect was mind numbingly stupid.

[a700hitter]

They were both good prospects - neither worked out ... it happens. Considering the Red Sox were practically giving them away - to get something with a reasonable probability of return was good. Almost all coverage of the 2011-12 seasons in retrospect was mind numbingly stupid.

Webster has already been played out. He was no longer much of a prospect and RFLR was a typical Dodger pump and dump. They are masters at it.

[Nick]

Price signed a 7 year deal.....if we get into the playoffs and he rebounds next year, all is forgotten......