The Benintendi Thread

[mvp 78]

Cordero was a 2nd baseman, I believe.

 

He played over 100 games in LF the following season.

[southpaw777]

Are you really arguing over someone describing a 78-84 season as "not the greatest of times"?

 

Was thinking the same thing...I think one is speaking of final results and one is talking excitement and the possible start of a turnaround for the organization with the infusion of a young player (Nomar)

[mvp 78]

Nope. Lived in Boston. You probably just "misremember" like your buddy Roger. Everyone was watching the Sox during Nomar's rookie year. Well...at least real fans who didn't jump on the bandwagon in '04.

 

You got to the "real fans" criticism in record time. Congrats.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Are you really arguing over someone describing a 78-84 season as "not the greatest of times"?

 

Nooe. I disagree that the "mid 90's were terrible for Sox fans." The '97 team didn't have s good record, but everyone was talking about Garciaparra. Just disagree that it was a "terrible" season to be a Sox fan.

[sk7326]

Simple take on the call-up

 

1. Benintendi has been targeted for aggressive promotion from day 1 - polished bat who cut his teeth in the best collegiate league in the country. He has responded ably each time.

2. His being here is not as important as how the Red Sox deal with him. Can Farrell and the management be patient in he needs an adjustment period (spoiler: he will)? The team has been remarkably reactionary with their kids since Epstein left.

[southpaw777]

Not much to add on the Benintendi promotion

 

Kids are all individuals. It's clear that he was tagged by the franchise as a guy to be promoted aggressively - and he has responded positively throughout. Clearly there will be adjustments as guys get tape on him and whatever - but kids differ in how much hand holding they need. The hypothesis here is that the answer for Benintendi is "not much".

 

Sometimes you get guys who look like studs who never get past the "off speed pitching" or whatever (Andy Marte, Lars Anderson), and then sometimes there are other guys who entered pro baseball with precious little experience in general who just gobble up everything. (Betts)

 

Key is that the org has a plan where the baseball operations dudes, and Farrell are on board and strong with. Farrell and the franchise has not had a good history here.

 

Promoting prospects mostly involves DD Hazen and The scouting dept...Farrell may have some say but he works with what hes given. I think DDs approach is much different than that of Ben or Theo in the past. Hazen is also GM now and hes been at the head of the scouting dept in Boston for a while now. Im sure he has more of a say this time around.

[User Name]

Simple take on the call-up

 

1. Benintendi has been targeted for aggressive promotion from day 1 - polished bat who cut his teeth in the best collegiate league in the country. He has responded ably each time.

2. His being here is not as important as how the Red Sox deal with him. Can Farrell and the management be patient in he needs an adjustment period (spoiler: he will)? The team has been remarkably reactionary with their kids since Epstein left.

 

This is undeniable fact, and the point that really scares me.

[Eddy Ballgame]

You got to the "real fans" criticism in record time. Congrats.

 

Thanks, man. I thought I had it, too. Just making a point that 91-94 couldn't suck enough, while after '94, it was a lot more fun again. Scott Cooper was a back to back all star during those years simply because every team had to have a representative.

[sk7326]

Promoting prospects mostly involves DD Hazen and The scouting dept...Farrell may have some say but he works with what hes given. I think DDs approach is much different than that of Ben or Theo in the past. Hazen is also GM now and hes been at the head of the scouting dept in Boston for a while now. Im sure he has more of a say this time around.

 

Does he?

 

Remember this is an org which - since Epstein has left - has:

 

1. Turned the 3B job over to Will Middlebrooks on 4 good weeks of BABIP spiked baseball

2. Put Bradley in CF and then took the job away because Grady Sizemore's entrails had 3 good weeks of pretend baseball

3. Signed Stephen Drew to play SS and bump Bogaerts to 3B (this was more defensible - their 3B production sucked, but was a vote of no confidence for a kid who needed reps)

4. Aggressively promoted Swihart due to injury, and then seemed committed to converting him to LF after a month

5. Sent Christian Vasquez down based on an out of nowhere hot streak from a guy they had cut before (again, more defensible - Vasquez might not actually be able to hit)

 

This is not the team that stood behind Pedroia despite a dreadful first impression.

[greenwell]

This is undeniable fact, and the point that really scares me.

 

I'm not sure I know what you're talking about here. Since 2011 there have been plenty of young players get to the team earlier than expected. I don't remember anything 'reactionary'. Anyone who went back down did so for good reason. The one exception might be the handling of Vasquez and Swihart at catcher, but that had a lot more to do with injuries than being reactionary.

[User Name]

Moving Bogaerts to 3B? Promoting and then not allowing JBJ enough time to develop at the MLB level? Panicking with Swihart and moving him to LF?

[Bellhorn04]

This is undeniable fact, and the point that really scares me.

 

I'm not sure why there's reason to be scared. Who has been ruined in recent years? The B's are all flourishing, though 2 of them certainly went through rough stretches.

[User Name]

But Bradley and Bogaerts were both set back by over-aggressive decisions.

[Jack Flap]

Nooe. I disagree that the "mid 90's were terrible for Sox fans." The '97 team didn't have s good record, but everyone was talking about Garciaparra. Just disagree that it was a "terrible" season to be a Sox fan.

 

Ok, I understand a little better now. Carry on.

[User Name]

Does he?

 

Remember this is an org which - since Epstein has left - has:

 

1. Turned the 3B job over to Will Middlebrooks on 4 good weeks of BABIP spiked baseball

2. Put Bradley in CF and then took the job away because Grady Sizemore's entrails had 3 good weeks of pretend baseball

3. Signed Stephen Drew to play SS and bump Bogaerts to 3B (this was more defensible - their 3B production sucked, but was a vote of no confidence for a kid who needed reps)

4. Aggressively promoted Swihart due to injury, and then seemed committed to converting him to LF after a month

5. Sent Christian Vasquez down based on an out of nowhere hot streak from a guy they had cut before (again, more defensible - Vasquez might not actually be able to hit)

 

This is not the team that stood behind Pedroia despite a dreadful first impression.

 

Let's be BFFs!

[mvp 78]

Moving Bogaerts to 3B? Promoting and then not allowing JBJ enough time to develop at the MLB level? Panicking with Swihart and moving him to LF?

 

They never let Owens try to figure it out in Boston. They stuck Vazquez back in Pawtucket when he should be the starting catcher.

[User Name]

They never let Owens try to figure it out in Boston. They stuck Vazquez back in Pawtucket when he should be the starting catcher.

 

Also, WMB, who SK mentioned in a similar post.

[illinoisredsox]

Does he?

 

Remember this is an org which - since Epstein has left - has:

 

 

2. Put Bradley in CF and then took the job away because Grady Sizemore's entrails had 3 good weeks of pretend baseball

 

That would be a nice statement except it's completely wrong. Bradley played 113 games in CF that year (he played 1 in left and a dozen in right) and hit .198. Sizemore played only 18 games in CF, 14 in LF and 24 in RF. By the time Bradley went down to Pawtucket in late August, Sizemore had been gone a couple months.

 

4. Aggressively promoted Swihart due to injury, and then seemed committed to converting him to LF after a month

 

A year after first bringing him up, not a month. Swihart had some issues defensively (particularly on blocking balls in the dirt). Frankly, he didn't look any better early on this year than he did last year. Now, they may have overestimated Vazquez' ability to hit, at least so far, but I think they had decided that Vaz was the franchise future at catcher and, given the less than stellar output in LF this year, decided that Swihart was athletic enough to do the job. Unfortunately, he got hurt.

[greenwell]

But Bradley and Bogaerts were both set back by over-aggressive decisions.

 

Over aggressive and reactionary are not the same. Like I said they have brought some players up earlier than expected. I'd say that worked out well with Bogaerts and Betts. It may have cost Bradley a bit, but I'm not sure about that. Owens couldn't hit the strike zone, you can't let him figure that out at the ML level. Catcher has been a bit of a mess i'll admit.

[sk7326]

That would be a nice statement except it's completely wrong. Bradley played 113 games in CF that year (he played 1 in left and a dozen in right) and hit .198. Sizemore played only 18 games in CF, 14 in LF and 24 in RF. By the time Bradley went down to Pawtucket in late August, Sizemore had been gone a couple months.

 

 

 

A year after first bringing him up, not a month. Swihart had some issues defensively (particularly on blocking balls in the dirt). Frankly, he didn't look any better early on this year than he did last year. Now, they may have overestimated Vazquez' ability to hit, at least so far, but I think they had decided that Vaz was the franchise future at catcher and, given the less than stellar output in LF this year, decided that Swihart was athletic enough to do the job. Unfortunately, he got hurt.

 

Bradley played more than Sizemore because they cut Sizemore - because he can't play anymore. Different deal. They let three weeks of spring baseball determine who was starting.

[mvp 78]

The decision to bring him up is fine. If they jerk him around if he struggles, they will deserve all the hate spewed at them.

[moonslav59]

But but but moon said he's ready!

 

Please stop the lies.

 

I said I thought he was very close to being ready and trusted Sox managment's decision on when that was.

 

I said, "I'd call up Beni the second Sox management determines he's ready".

 

We don't really know if Sox management has fully determined his readiness. They may have just decided he's at a point right now, ready or not, that is better than Brentz/Holt, which isn't saying much at all.

[mvp 78]

That would be a nice statement except it's completely wrong. Bradley played 113 games in CF that year (he played 1 in left and a dozen in right) and hit .198. Sizemore played only 18 games in CF, 14 in LF and 24 in RF. By the time Bradley went down to Pawtucket in late August, Sizemore had been gone a couple months.

 

I think there was confusion between the 2013 season where JBJ was jerked around (he raked in ST) and 2014 when he became a full time player and Grady came aboard.

[mvp 78]

 

Bradley played more than Sizemore because they cut Sizemore - because he can't play anymore. Different deal. They let three weeks of spring baseball determine who was starting.

 

In 2014, Bradley was a full time player from the beginning of the season.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statsd.aspx?playerid=12984&position=OF&type=&gds=&gde=&season=2014

[moonslav59]

But Bradley and Bogaerts were both set back by over-aggressive decisions.

 

Nobody knows for sure why these two struggled. It might have just been a prolonged slump. We might have kept both back another year, and they still might have struggled their first full seasons. We will and can never know for sure.

 

Plus, many felt it was the position change not the early call-ups that messed with these guys (not me). Yo-yo-ing JBJ didn't help either.

Edited August 2, 2016 by moonslav59

[sk7326]

Please stop the lies.

 

I said I thought he was very close to being ready and trusted Sox managment's decision on when that was.

 

I said, "I'd call up Beni the second Sox management determines he's ready".

 

We don't really know if Sox management has fully determined his readiness. They may have just decided he's at a point right now, ready or not, that is better than Brentz/Holt, which isn't saying much at all.

 

My guess is they have been impressed with his ability to figure stuff out and deal with a lot of stuff being thrown at him quickly. It's a bet on the kid. Moncada they have been slower on - but when you combine the cultural adjustment with how little baseball he had played before 2015 that is understandable.

[User Name]

Over aggressive and reactionary are not the same. Like I said they have brought some players up earlier than expected. I'd say that worked out well with Bogaerts and Betts. It may have cost Bradley a bit, but I'm not sure about that. Owens couldn't hit the strike zone, you can't let him figure that out at the ML level. Catcher has been a bit of a mess i'll admit.

 

All of these decisions have been both, but more reactionary than anything else.

[moonslav59]

My guess is they have been impressed with his ability to figure stuff out and deal with a lot of stuff being thrown at him quickly. It's a bet on the kid. Moncada they have been slower on - but when you combine the cultural adjustment with how little baseball he had played before 2015 that is understandable.

 

Plus, playing in college is a step up from HS.

 

I'm not sure if this was the best time to bring him up, but since we didn't address the LF weakness at the deadline, I'm thinking how much worse can Beni be than Brentz?

 

I don't fall for the "fragile ego" argument as much as many here seem to do. If Beni fails, and I hope he doesn't, and I hope he gets a legitimate chance, then he shouldl be fine after some time in AAA to start the 2017 season.

[moonslav59]

All of these decisions have been both, but more reactionary than anything else.

 

DD has a history of bringing up top young talent quickly (Verlander, Porcello, A Miller & Bonderman) but they were all pitchers.

[Jack Flap]

DD has a history of bringing up top young talent quickly (Verlander, Porcello, A Miller & Bonderman) but they were all pitchers.

 

Porcello and Verlander were called up to the major league rotation after 24 and 20 minor league starts, respectively. Verlander had 7 starts in AA, Porcello none. Neither ever saw AAA.

 

People would lose their minds if that happened in Boston.