Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[User Name]

He wasn't the answer, as I stated above, but he's clearly better than Buchholz.

[mvp 78]

He wasn't the answer, as I stated above, but he's clearly better than Buchholz.

 

That's true.

[Dojji]

We don't need a savior. We need reliable depth, guys that can take the ball without embarrassing themselves more often than not. We don't need Pedro Martinez. he'd be nice to have, but at the moment what we need is Derek Lowe. Or for modern comparison, a guy like Jason Vargas, Wei-Yin Chen or Ervin Santana. Guys who don't have massive peaks and valleys and who can pitch consistently without exploring messily on us so the offense can take over the game. That's how we're built -- to take advantage of that kind of pitcher. And we need at least one more of them. thank God for Wrigut or we'd need 2, and then you could just forget about this year. Edited May 20, 2016 by Dojji

[Eddy Ballgame]

Everyone.

 

Over the last three years, Chen has averaged 171 IP of 3.61 ERA, 1.24 WHIP ball, while Buchholz averages 131 IP of 3.74, 1.23 WHIP ball. Those 30 extra IP yearly coupled with much higher consistency (Buchholz had one superlative year, a s***** one, and one above average one, while Chen has one slightly below average and two slightly above average ones) definitely tips the scales in Chen's direction. I agree that Chen would not have been the savior Dojji paints him as (it's his MO when he covets a player), but let's call a spade a spade. Chen is a more dependable, consistent pitcher than Buchholz.

 

If you think that giving a guy like Chen 5 years at 80 million, while surrendering the number 12 pick in the draft, was the "smart" move over picking up Buchholz' option at 13 million, then I can't even debate you.

 

While you can make a case that Chen has been a more "dependable" pitcher recently, you really need to look at all of the factors involved.

[FredLynn]

If you think that giving a guy like Chen 5 years at 80 million, while surrendering the number 12 pick in the draft, was the "smart" move over picking up Buchholz' option at 13 million, then I can't even debate you.

 

While you can make a case that Chen has been a more "dependable" pitcher recently, you really need to look at all of the factors involved.

 

It was the right move at the time, to pick up Clay's option. Too bad it didn't work out.

[Eddy Ballgame]

It was the right move at the time, to pick up Clay's option. Too bad it didn't work out.

 

It's May 19th. I'm not convinced that Buchholz won't go on one of his light's out runs before the season's over. He's had a few hiccups during games and then shut teams down. It's a little early to write him off.

 

If the Sox put him on the trade market right now, plenty of teams will be interested.

[User Name]

If you think that giving a guy like Chen 5 years at 80 million, while surrendering the number 12 pick in the draft, was the "smart" move over picking up Buchholz' option at 13 million, then I can't even debate you.

 

While you can make a case that Chen has been a more "dependable" pitcher recently, you really need to look at all of the factors involved.

 

Nowhere have I said any of those things. I said Chen has been better and more dependable than Buchholz, not that I agreed on forfeiting a draft pick to sign him. My comment clearly focused on one point: That people should not be surprised if Buch outperformed Chen. I contended otherwise, full stop.

[Eddy Ballgame]

Nowhere have I said any of those things. I said Chen has been better and more dependable than Buchholz, not that I agreed on forfeiting a draft pick to sign him. My comment clearly focused on one point: That people should not be surprised if Buch outperformed Chen. I contended otherwise, full stop.

 

Fair enough. Let's see how it develops over the rest of the season. I won't be surprised if Buchholz ends up with better numbers than Chen. You will. We'll see.

Edited May 20, 2016 by Eddy Ballgame

[a700hitter]

Fair enough. Let's see how it develops over the rest of the season. I won't be surprised if Buchholz ends up with better numbers than Chen. You will. We'll see.

Would you be surprised if Buchholz doesn't pitch after the All Star Break?

[Eddy Ballgame]

Would you be surprised if Buchholz doesn't pitch after the All Star Break?

 

I wouldn't be "surprised" if Buchholz doesn't pitch again after this weekend. I also wouldn't be "surprised" if the Sox go 12 and 2 over his next 14 starts. Too many fans are letting their anger and frustration with the guy get in the way of reality. They don't have a lot of other options right now, either.

[User Name]

The reality is that he hasn't combined sub league average run prevention numbers with more than 150 IP (a very generous number) since 2010. That's not anger, but rather a verifiable trend.

[cp176]

With Wright pitching the way he has, and Price looking more and more like Price is supposed to look, and the Red Sox competing the way they are, the sense of urgency to trade for a TOTRP isn't there today. The big picture is still clouded up. If Kelly can come back and pitch like he did last fall and Buchholz can just put up #4/#5 numbers things could still work out very well. I still think that DD will deal at some point but I think he will deal from a position of strength if he can. When a move is made, it is apt to be for someone very good and not someone expected to fill a temporarily created hole.

[Palodios]

I like the idea of trading for Chen. Solid #2/3 guy with a big contract on a mediocre team that loves dumping big contracts.

 

AL east proven. Only 30 years old, expensive enough to keep other bidders away but not too expensive.

[Kingface]

Reason 5,476 why they should have signed Hill this past Winter.........he signed for peanuts in Oakland is is sporting a 2.54era.......... Price, Hill, Porcello, Wright, Buch (or Kelly) would be pretty solid.......

[User Name]

They did try to sign Hill, and offered a competitive contract. A clearer path to a rotation spot was the deciding factor apparently.

[Dojji]

Another situation where having Buchholz wasted an opportunity to upgrade the rotation for reals.

[Emp9]

We don't need a savior. We need reliable depth, guys that can take the ball without embarrassing themselves more often than not. We don't need Pedro Martinez. he'd be nice to have, but at the moment what we need is Derek Lowe. Or for modern comparison, a guy like Jason Vargas, Wei-Yin Chen or Ervin Santana. Guys who don't have massive peaks and valleys and who can pitch consistently without exploring messily on us so the offense can take over the game. That's how we're built -- to take advantage of that kind of pitcher. And we need at least one more of them. thank God for Wrigut or we'd need 2, and then you could just forget about this year.

 

Well yeah, we could use a bonafide #2-#3-ish type SP as well. That's why ERod's injury hurts us. Would I take a present Ervin Santana over a present Buchholz right now? Sure. But for our efforts, and our prospects (we don't have many mid-tier prospects btw), and for a possible play-off run, I think we should aim higher. If we're gonna do it, why go half way?

 

I've never liked the idea of having to depend on Buch, but picking up his option was a no-brainer in my opinion. You take that gamble.

[mvp 78]

I've never liked the idea of having to depend on Buch, but picking up his option was a no-brainer in my opinion. You take that gamble.

I just don't ever understand this reasoning. You either like having Buchholz as a part of the rotation and think he can succeed or you don't pick him up.

[Bellhorn04]

Another situation where having Buchholz wasted an opportunity to upgrade the rotation for reals.

 

Buchholz is only a sliver of the problem really. Ben left us with a paper-thin rotation and a bloated payroll. Acquiring Price & Kimbrel put us way over the luxury tax limit. So to sign a guy like Chen you have add on 30% in tax. The only real option is to trade prospects for a cost-controlled arm.

[mvp 78]

If we had pitching prospects in the pipeline, I don't think we'd be as concerned. Espinoza is a few years away and ERod is in the midst of a lost year.

[Emp9]

I just don't ever understand this reasoning. You either like having Buchholz as a part of the rotation and think he can succeed or you don't pick him up.

 

Because Buch is a 50/50 flip of a coin and the pitching market has been pretty bare and very expensive as of late. You pick up his option because of his ceiling. You pick up his option because other teams still covet Buchholz regardless of what any fan thinks. You pick up his ($13M) option, then you forget about him and build the rest of your rotation starting at the top. Ideally, that's how I'd approach it.

[mvp 78]

If any teams coveted Buchholz, he would have been traded by now.

[Emp9]

If any teams coveted Buchholz, he would have been traded by now.

 

Sorry, I call BS on this. Between his mid season injury last season (which would of course nix any trade), the FO regime change, the fact that his salary is a huge bargain if he hits his ceiling which makes him a rare commodity (for Bos or any team), and past rumors of other teams and their evaluators thinking they can "fix" him... i don't buy it. Too many factors go into why he hasn't been traded already.

[mvp 78]

Sorry, I call BS on this. Between his mid season injury last season (which would of course nix any trade), the FO regime change, the fact that his salary is a huge bargain if he hits his ceiling which makes him a rare commodity (for Bos or any team), and past rumors of other teams and their evaluators thinking they can "fix" him... i don't buy it. Too many factors go into why he hasn't been traded already.

If he hits his ceiling, his salary will be a huge bargain. No kidding... You could say that about almost anyone. That does not make him a rare commodity.

 

He has never pitched a full season at a high level. It has never happened. The past rumors that were speculated were just as much BS as my previous post. He was healthy in 2014 when Ben unloaded Lester and Lackey. You know why Buchholz wasn't traded then? Because he flat out sucked that year. If they received any real interest, he would have been out the door.

[Eddy Ballgame]

If any teams coveted Buchholz, he would have been traded by now.

 

Disagree. The Sox don't exactly have many options to replace him with right now. Sean O'Sullivan was in the rotation last week for christ sakes!

 

With the lack of starting pitching on the market right now, there would be no shortage of suitors for a guy with his talent/contract. Low risk/high reward city. As maddening as the guy is, they need to let it play out a bit more, especially with E-Rod's uncertainty.

[mvp 78]

I appreciate that you guys are standing by your man, I just can't do it. It physically repulses me to have him on this team. Yes, it's probably associated with some mental disorder on my part...

[Eddy Ballgame]

I appreciate that you guys are standing by your man, I just can't do it. It physically repulses me to have him on this team. Yes, it's probably associated with some mental disorder on my part...

 

Haha....I hear ya. I don't like rooting for the guy by any stretch, trust me. I'm more than ready for the Buchholz era to end, but I don't see any better options at this point. Regardless, it's a pretty big start for him tonight.

[Bellhorn04]

I appreciate that you guys are standing by your man, I just can't do it. It physically repulses me to have him on this team. Yes, it's probably associated with some mental disorder on my part...

 

I think I have a mental disorder that makes me still loyal to him.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I think I have a mental disorder that makes me still loyal to him.

 

The guy is one of the most frustating pitchers I've ever had to root for, but he WAS a crucial part of the 2013 championship team, which probably keeps some fans from running on the field and tackling him.

[southpaw777]

If any teams coveted Buchholz, he would have been traded by now.

 

if they decide to put Buch out there, he will most certainly have a few teams involved. Just because fans dont see value in him doesnt mean he has none. im not saying we will get a lot back, but to think nobody wants him is ridiculous.

They havent put him out there because theres nobody to replace him. Owens and Johnson arent doing well. Besides the other night, Elias has looked awful. O,Sullivan? Pass....theres a reason Buch is still here. I dont think they thought ALL of their pitching depth would suck balls...neither did I..

Edited May 20, 2016 by southpaw777