Is the actual rotation the worst in the last 10 Y?

[Northern Star]

See Kimmi, there's something you still don't understand about TalkSox.....so allow me to enlighten you:

 

Almost everyone here has a schtick: I'm the really blunt guy with really good analytic skills, Spudboy is the resident old timer who's really nice, Palodios/SoxFanForSyth (on hiatus) are the eternal optimists, and iortiz is, well, the opposite of those two. He can find misery inside a puppy's bark. To each his own, i guess.

 

Pal is also Tony from 24. Really, that's him.

[Spitball]

So are you, good sir, so are you.

 

Thank you, UN.

[Ogden]

If you are sox fan, at this point you either support the front office and what they have done or you don't I guess. There are so many questions with respect to how they will play. I liked Ojeda and Tudor as well. They should be better offensively - we hope for the best. From a pitching perspective - who knows - roll the dice.

 

 

Really? There is no "in between" or room for disagreement for you? You must have loved Haywood Sullivan. By the way, Tudor and Ojeda were very average pitchers in the AL with ERAs around 4. Once they moved to the weaker hitting NL, they made out quite a bit better. That's what scares me about Miley - a guy with a 4+ ERA coming to the stronger hitting AL.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Ogden

[iortiz]

People keep saying that they can assess their pitching needs after the season starts. I just don't see that as a realistic option. The last time the Red Sox added a significant starter during a season was ss MVP mentioned, Mike Boddicker around 25 years ago. It's just not that easy to add top pitching during the season.

 

Yup. I'm hearing the same old story since I signed up here and such kind of thing never happened.

 

Let's face it, they shitted the bed on Lester and they tried to compense with this combo. I do not see any of them filling his shoes even combined.

Edited January 31, 2015 by iortiz

[cp176]

No Ofden there is plenty of in between for me . Just a general observation of what I perceive the tone of the board to be. Not really a very significant thing to say I guess . As for me personally, I have not always liked the decisions of management but I have always been able to live with them. How about you?

[cp176]

Really? There is no "in between" or room for disagreement for you? You must have loved Haywood Sullivan. By the way, Tudor and Ojeda were very average pitchers in the AL with ERAs around 4. Once they moved to the weaker hitting NL, they made out quite a bit better. That's what scares me about Miley - a guy with a 4+ ERA coming to the stronger hitting AL.

 

I remember watching Tudor and Ojeda . I always thought they were capable of more I share your concerns about Miley.

[cp176]

I remember watching Tudor and Ojeda . I always thought they were capable of more I share your concerns about Miley.

 

Sorry I meant Ogden

[User Name]

Really? There is no "in between" or room for disagreement for you? You must have loved Haywood Sullivan. By the way, Tudor and Ojeda were very average pitchers in the AL with ERAs around 4. Once they moved to the weaker hitting NL, they made out quite a bit better. That's what scares me about Miley - a guy with a 4+ ERA coming to the stronger hitting AL.

 

Miley had some luck issues and played behind a lackluster defense though. His K-rate and GB% were very good.

[Kimmi]

See Kimmi, there's something you still don't understand about TalkSox.....so allow me to enlighten you:

 

Almost everyone here has a schtick: I'm the really blunt guy with really good analytic skills, Spudboy is the resident old timer who's really nice, Palodios/SoxFanForSyth (on hiatus) are the eternal optimists, and iortiz is, well, the opposite of those two. He can find misery inside a puppy's bark. To each his own, i guess.

 

 

Thank you for enlightening me. I wonder what my schtick is. LOL

 

As you said, to each his own. I realize that people root for and support their team in different ways. I have just never understood the amount of bashing and negativity towards the Sox since 2004. It boggles my mind.

[Kimmi]

I see a very unbalanced team Kim. Some probably will go after my throat for this but I see in our team one of the worst 5 rotations in baseball right now Kim. Offense will be fine but unless we score a lot of runs, it will be a looooong season.

 

Sure all teams have their ?s and all but I just can not understand how a high payroll team can go with a pitching staff like this. I just do not get it. As I said, hopefully I eat my words and everything goes fine for us next year.

 

 

Given my choice, I would prefer the balance tipped more on the side of stronger pitching than on the side of stronger offense, but I don't see the rotation being as bad as you see it. The addressed a huge area of need that was lacking from last year's team by signing Hanley and Panda.

 

I was actually quite impressed that Ben was able to rebuild the entire rotation, with perhaps the exception of a #1 guy, in basically one day. Hopefully, you will be presently surprised by them this season.

[Kimmi]

You are an excellent addition to this forum, Kimmi. The Sox added two of the best offensive components available with Sandoval and Ramirez while they upgraded their biggest positional holes in the process. They built a starting staff that is a gamble but a sure bet to consistently produce ground ball outs. If problems evolve, they have a deep farm system to bring up youngsters or to trade for solutions to those problems. As I see it, the Red Sox are in a good position to win the AL East.

 

Once in the playoffs, the hottest team will advance. Outside of Bumgarner this season, aces Clayton Kershaw, Jon Lester, Justin Verlander, Max Scherzer and James Shields pitched 57 1/3 innings, allowing 69 hits and 42 earned runs for a 6.59 ERA. In my opinion, the Red Sox are strategically positioned to return to the post season.

 

 

Thank you Spitball.

 

Good post. I agree that the team has a good shot at returning to the playoffs. One thing that I like about this team that was lacking last year is its depth.

[Kimmi]

I think that you are absolutely right about the patience factor (don't know if that is spelled correctly or not). We are all passionate fans and speaking just for myself I tend to want things yesterday that I can't have until tomorrow. I think it might be a New England trait. We aren't in bad shape many of us just want more I guess. I am willing to wait. We have a young team that could be special. It is nice to be told to stay grounded and to wait by someone in a I decent way. I appreciate it and I am trying to follow that advice.

 

 

It's easy to get impatient. As a fan, I often react emotionally rather than rationally. As a fan, the emotional side of me would have been thrilled if we had topped the Cubs price for Lester and re-signed him, even though the rational side of me knows that wouldn't have been a wise decision. The FO does not really have that luxury. They can't act or react emotionally. They have to exhibit patience and rational business decisions, otherwise they would not be very successful.

[iortiz]

It's easy to get impatient. As a fan, I often react emotionally rather than rationally. As a fan, the emotional side of me would have been thrilled if we had topped the Cubs price for Lester and re-signed him, even though the rational side of me knows that wouldn't have been a wise decision. The FO does not really have that luxury. They can't act or react emotionally. They have to exhibit patience and rational business decisions, otherwise they would not be very successful.

Regarding Lester, they screwed it all along Kim. The evidence is out there and a lot has been discussed and I won't rewrite it all over again. The FO shitted the bed big time. So saying they executed wise on this regard, I do not think you are looking the whole picture.

[Kimmi]

Regarding Lester, they screwed it all along Kim. The evidence is out there and a lot has been discussed and I won't rewrite it all over again. The FO shitted the bed big time. So saying they executed wise on this regard, I do not think you are looking the whole picture.

 

 

I happen to agree with you on this Iortiz. I think they screwed up big time in not getting Lester re-signed last spring or early in the season. They executed wisely in not offering more than the Cubbies, but it should never have gotten to that point.

 

That said, I think they recovered from that screw up rather nicely.

[seabeachfred]

I happen to agree with you on this Iortiz. I think they screwed up big time in not getting Lester re-signed last spring or early in the season. They executed wisely in not offering more than the Cubbies, but it should never have gotten to that point.

 

That said, I think they recovered from that screw up rather nicely.

 

Whether they screwed up early or late with Lester is beside the point Kimmi.....THEY DID SCREW UP BADLY ON THAT AND THAT IS BEYOND ARGUMENT.

[mvp 78]

Imo, if the rotation was Lester/Porcello/Miley/Masterson/Buchholz, people would still be bitching nonstop.

[dupree]

Imo, if the rotation was Lester/Porcello/Miley/Masterson/Buchholz, people would still be bitching nonstop.

Agreed if we had gotten Lester people would still we needed Sheilds and then the payroll would hurt us to resign top tier FA in years to come. I was a big fan of resigning Lester and still time they should of signed him in a different manner than the process went. That being said reports of the situation are reports and that's all we have to go on. Maybe in a couple years we can look back and say that we were glad that we didn't sign any of this year's big 3 pitchers. The one we coulda signed coulda turned into another John Lackey. I see us positioned to sign a young arm longterm either during the season or next offseason and have us as contenders for years to come and not plague us with payroll like the Phillies and not being able to dump huge contracts for old wrinkled up vets. So in the long run this could be a win for us. Just the anticipation to find out if Ben and company are smarter than we all think they are comes true is nerve racking to say the least.

[iortiz]

Imo, if the rotation was Lester/Porcello/Miley/Masterson/Buchholz, people would still be bitching nonstop.

I would have also liked Shields, I'm kind of greedy you know.

[Spitball]

Imo, if the rotation was Lester/Porcello/Miley/Masterson/Buchholz, people would still be bitching nonstop.

 

Great point! Gripers will gripe.

 

Lester is unlikely to perform up to his numbers for the duration of his contract. Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, and Justin Verlander all signed long term contracts around the age of thirty-years. They all regressed to some extent. History tells us Lester is likely to regress also.

 

Lester was basically a number four starter in 2012. He was a little better in 2013 before improving in the post season. He was great last season, but it was his walk year. No one would be griping if he had signed elsewhere after the 2012 season.

[Ogden]

Great point! Gripers will gripe.

 

Lester is unlikely to perform up to his numbers for the duration of his contract. Cliff Lee, CC Sabathia, and Justin Verlander all signed long term contracts around the age of thirty-years. They all regressed to some extent. History tells us Lester is likely to regress also.

 

Lester was basically a number four starter in 2012. He was a little better in 2013 before improving in the post season. He was great last season, but it was his walk year. No one would be griping if he had signed elsewhere after the 2012 season.

 

 

I agree. I'm not upset he left, but I'm sure I'm in the minority. I actually thought the so-called low ball offer the Sox gave him was a very fair starting point. He's not Kershaw or King Felix. I don't even think he's a number one on an AL pennant contender. He may do well for a couple years in the NL where the number 8 and 9 hitters are cream puffs, but we'll see what happens when he hits the middle of his contract.

 

I could be dead wrong and be a poor judge of his potential, but I don't get paid like Theo or Ben so it's inconsequential.

[Ogden]

Miley had some luck issues and played behind a lackluster defense though. His K-rate and GB% were very good.

 

Miley's FIP was 3.98 the last 2 years, his WIP was poor, and his BAA was .269 last year in a weaker league. I don't expect him to be awful, but I also don't expect much more than an innings eater.

[mvp 78]

Haha again your captious questions in effect.

 

How is that a petty question?

[Bellhorn04]

I agree. I'm not upset he left, but I'm sure I'm in the minority. I actually thought the so-called low ball offer the Sox gave him was a very fair starting point. He's not Kershaw or King Felix. I don't even think he's a number one on an AL pennant contender. He may do well for a couple years in the NL where the number 8 and 9 hitters are cream puffs, but we'll see what happens when he hits the middle of his contract.

 

I could be dead wrong and be a poor judge of his potential, but I don't get paid like Theo or Ben so it's inconsequential.

 

The Sox negotiations with Lester were flat-out weird from start to finish. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that they never really wanted to re-sign him because of their current thinking on big contracts for pitchers his age. But then you had those visits to his house by Henry in the latter stages - what was that all about?

 

When it came down to it Lester eliminated all teams except the Cubs and the Sox. But the Cubs offer was $20 million higher and the Sox wouldn't budge. Who the hell knows what they were thinking at that point?

 

About that opening offer though. Lester was clearly insulted by it and with good reason, when you look at all the circumstances. On Feb. 19 the Reds signed a deal with Homer Bailey for 6 years and $105 million. The Red Sox offer was exactly two-thirds of that.

[sk7326]

I agree. I'm not upset he left, but I'm sure I'm in the minority. I actually thought the so-called low ball offer the Sox gave him was a very fair starting point. He's not Kershaw or King Felix. I don't even think he's a number one on an AL pennant contender. He may do well for a couple years in the NL where the number 8 and 9 hitters are cream puffs, but we'll see what happens when he hits the middle of his contract.

 

I could be dead wrong and be a poor judge of his potential, but I don't get paid like Theo or Ben so it's inconsequential.

 

Oh he could be the #1 on a contender - he was. Now he's not Kershaw or King Felix, but that is also all but a handful of pitchers. I blanched at giving him 6 years but a guy with a good delivery, no arm trouble and a good approach, he was a pretty good bet to hold value for the majority of the deal. The Red Sox were dogmatic about their valuation - despite it flying in the face of market realities. That's fine - but the result is what it is. His price was fair given his past, the low likeliness of being hurt, and just how everybody is swimming in money.

[User Name]

I happen to agree with you on this Iortiz. I think they screwed up big time in not getting Lester re-signed last spring or early in the season. They executed wisely in not offering more than the Cubbies, but it should never have gotten to that point.

 

That said, I think they recovered from that screw up rather nicely.

 

Unless, as some argue, signing Lester was never their goal in the first place.

[User Name]

Agreed if we had gotten Lester people would still we needed Sheilds and then the payroll would hurt us to resign top tier FA in years to come. I was a big fan of resigning Lester and still time they should of signed him in a different manner than the process went. That being said reports of the situation are reports and that's all we have to go on. Maybe in a couple years we can look back and say that we were glad that we didn't sign any of this year's big 3 pitchers. The one we coulda signed coulda turned into another John Lackey. I see us positioned to sign a young arm longterm either during the season or next offseason and have us as contenders for years to come and not plague us with payroll like the Phillies and not being able to dump huge contracts for old wrinkled up vets. So in the long run this could be a win for us. Just the anticipation to find out if Ben and company are smarter than we all think they are comes true is nerve racking to say the least.

 

Good analysis. The Phillie situation is the exact reason i'm so leery of this long-term contracts now. More dollars/shorter term is the way to go imo.

[User Name]

Miley's FIP was 3.98 the last 2 years, his WIP was poor, and his BAA was .269 last year in a weaker league. I don't expect him to be awful, but I also don't expect much more than an innings eater.

 

His BABIP last year was .317, which is very much above league average, and that very much helped his BAA, and his xFIP, which accounts for home run issues, was 3.50 last year.

 

I would also like to direct you to this article: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/wade-miley-who-is-better-than-you-think/

[Kimmi]

Imo, if the rotation was Lester/Porcello/Miley/Masterson/Buchholz, people would still be bitching nonstop.

 

 

I would have to agree with this.

[Kimmi]

Unless, as some argue, signing Lester was never their goal in the first place.

 

 

That's a possibility, but I don't believe that to be the case. I think they wanted to re-sign him, but clearly on their terms and not Lester's. IMO, the fact that the Sox don't usually cave in to demands that they're not comfortable with is often mistaken for them not really wanting the player to begin with. I think they want the player, but they're not going be stupid about signing him.

[Bellhorn04]

That's a possibility, but I don't believe that to be the case. I think they wanted to re-sign him, but clearly on their terms and not Lester's.

 

Don't you think it's a little strange that they made offers ranging from $70 million to $135 million, Kimmi?