The rebuild thread.

[Thunder]

JBJ's WAR will be soaring if he can hit at .260 or higher. His defense is worth having on the field, no matter how badly he is hitting.

[Behindenemylines]

JBJ needs to at least hit.240-.250 range to keep him in CF full time. It would be such a waste of his great D-Fence to have him as a 4th OF. The guy can flat out go get it. The Sox need to have someone sit with and look at film, or the pitchers are going to continue abusing him. It doesn't look like he can make adjustments on his own. It seems like he is always 0-2. WMB also looks lost. He is swinging at everything. He looks over matched right now. XB is going through the rookie up and downs. He can look good on one swing and terrible the next. When he can lay off those pitches he will start abusing the pitchers. CF and 3B are far from being solved for 2015.

[a700hitter]

JBJ needs to at least hit.240-.250 range to keep him in CF full time. It would be such a waste of his great D-Fence to have him as a 4th OF. The guy can flat out go get it. The Sox need to have someone sit with and look at film, or the pitchers are going to continue abusing him. It doesn't look like he can make adjustments on his own. It seems like he is always 0-2. WMB also looks lost. He is swinging at everything. He looks over matched right now. XB is going through the rookie up and downs. He can look good on one swing and terrible the next. When he can lay off those pitches he will start abusing the pitchers. CF and 3B are far from being solved for 2015.

Middlebrooks is a big stiff. I can't see him as a consistently good mlb hitter, but he is so strong that he will hit 25 to 30 homers if he stays healthy. He has that aspect of the game that AOJ does not.

[Palodios]

Rusney Castillo and the Red Sox have been gaining a lot of heat lately. With their outfield prospect situation, it seems highly likely.

[Spitball]

This is an interesting post on MLB Trade Rumors.com.

 

Latest On Rusney Castillo

 

By Steve Adams [August 9, 2014 at 9:23am CDT]

 

 

Multiple sources indicated to (Ben) Badler (of Baseball America ) that the Red Sox had the largest contingent on-hand Saturday for Castillo’s showcase. He notes that Jackie Bradley has more upside at the plate, and Mookie Betts might factor in as a corner outfield option in the long-term due to the presence of Dustin Pedroia, but Boston could be intrigued by Castillo as a corner option as well. He did play right field in Cuba, Badler adds.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Spitball

[Northern Star]

Middlebrooks is a big stiff. I can't see him as a consistently good mlb hitter, but he is so strong that he will hit 25 to 30 homers if he stays healthy. He has that aspect of the game that AOJ does not.

 

To my mind 30 HRs is useless if your OBP and average are too low.

[a700hitter]

To my mind 30 HRs is useless if your OBP and average are too low.

I agree, but he offers something that a guy with a low OBP, a lot of K's, and no power did not.

[Thunder]

JBJ needs to at least hit.240-.250 range to keep him in CF full time. It would be such a waste of his great D-Fence to have him as a 4th OF. The guy can flat out go get it. The Sox need to have someone sit with and look at film, or the pitchers are going to continue abusing him. It doesn't look like he can make adjustments on his own. It seems like he is always 0-2. WMB also looks lost. He is swinging at everything. He looks over matched right now. XB is going through the rookie up and downs. He can look good on one swing and terrible the next. When he can lay off those pitches he will start abusing the pitchers. CF and 3B are far from being solved for 2015.

 

Assuming he gets called up on September 1, Cecchini could be the future at 3B. He would get that month to see how he could handle big league hitting. As for CF, a FA may be the answer, but I'm not opposed to JBJ and Betts sharing time out there.

 

Actually, change everything. If Shane's healthy next year, we have him in RF or LF if we trade Cespedes for Giancarlo, JBJ/Betts in CF, Cespedes/Victorino in LF, and Brock at 3B. How does that sound?

[Station 13]

Middlebrooks is a big stiff. I can't see him as a consistently good mlb hitter, but he is so strong that he will hit 25 to 30 homers if he stays healthy. He has that aspect of the game that AOJ does not.

 

He has been a real disappointment this season. He has done absolutely nothing for 2 year now. Everytime he has a hot streak in AAA, he returns to the majors promptly stop hitting or get injures.

[Spudboy]

Middlebrooks had a hot streak in the minors this year? How did I miss that?

 

I realize that he continues to have nagging injuries that may be holding him back. I just feel at this point he has had enough time to recover and to demonstrate some consistency at the plate. He has not done that. I have been hoping that he could show some discipline and of course his power. He hasn't.

 

I think that Middlebrooks is approaching bust status.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Spudboy

[a700hitter]

Middlebrooks had a hot streak in the minors this year? How did I miss that?

 

I realize that he continues to have nagging injuries that may be holding him back. I just feel at this point he has had enough time to recover and to demonstrate some consistency at the plate. He has not don that. I have been hoping that he could show some discipline and of course his power. He hasn't.

 

I think that Middlebrooks is approaching bust status.

 

Yep, he's not going to get a lot more rope.

[Bellhorn04]

But we all know that if Will gets hold of a couple soon we'll be back behind him again.

 

Soon would be good.

[Thunder]

I would send Will to Portland. AA is the better place to prepare for and get used to the big leagues. It's where all of the top prospects are, and where most prospects get judged the most.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I would send Will to Portland. AA is the better place to prepare for and get used to the big leagues. It's where all of the top prospects are, and where most prospects get judged the most.

 

this is wrong on so many levels.

[Spitball]

I think I might be pretty much alone here, but I see a new era evolving in the successful rebuilding of a team. The Sox and Cherington are likely not going to use the Epstein formula to build a team. There will likely not be long term contracts for big dollars but more development from within. The Phillies, Rangers, Yankees, and Angels are looking up at the A's, Royals, Cardinals, and Pirates.

 

The Sox are going to have to adjust their thinking because the huge dollars spent on Josh Hamilton, C.J. Wilson, Albert Pujols, Jacoby Ellsbury, Sinn Soo Choo, CC Sabathia, B.J. Upton, Carl Crawford, and others were foolish dollars spent on past performance rather than future long-term reality. Those types of long term dollars will sink a team...and forward thinking teams are now realizing this.

 

We can gripe about a last place finish, but we are going to have to adjust our thinking. Times are a changing and the long term, big dollar contracts favor the 30-something player and the agent...but not the team. When teams realize this, we hopefully will see a change. It will be better for baseball as a whole.

[a700hitter]

And we have managed to finish last in 2012 with a roster choked with high cost long term contracts and again in 2014 with no long term high cost players. There are lots of strategies that can be employed to build a winning team. Our current ownership has also demonstrated that you can build a last place team by poorly executing divergent strategies.

[seabeachfred]

I think I might be pretty much alone here, but I see a new era evolving in the successful rebuilding of a team. The Sox and Cherington are likely not going to use the Epstein formula to build a team. There will likely not be long term contracts for big dollars but more development from within. The Phillies, Rangers, Yankees, and Angels are looking up at the A's, Royals, Cardinals, and Pirates.

 

The Sox are going to have to adjust their thinking because the huge dollars spent on Josh Hamilton, C.J. Wilson, Albert Pujols, Jacoby Ellsbury, Sinn Soo Choo, CC Sabathia, B.J. Upton, Carl Crawford, and others were foolish dollars spent on past performance rather than future long-term reality. Those types of long term dollars will sink a team...and forward thinking teams are now realizing this.

 

We can gripe about a last place finish, but we are going to have to adjust our thinking. Times are a changing and the long term, big dollar contracts favor the 30-something player and the agent...but not the team. When teams realize this, we hopefully will see a change. It will be better for baseball as a whole.

 

And that kind of thinking has really helped us this year....oh wait........

[Spitball]

And that kind of thinking has really helped us this year....oh wait........

 

Uhh, I think you are missing the point. There will be down seasons. It is better to have down seasons because the rookies are developing than to have several down seasons because big contracts are growing old and will be handicapping the team from future development.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Spitball

[reYoukilis]

I think I might be pretty much alone here, but I see a new era evolving in the successful rebuilding of a team. The Sox and Cherington are likely not going to use the Epstein formula to build a team. There will likely not be long term contracts for big dollars but more development from within. The Phillies, Rangers, Yankees, and Angels are looking up at the A's, Royals, Cardinals, and Pirates.

 

The Sox are going to have to adjust their thinking because the huge dollars spent on Josh Hamilton, C.J. Wilson, Albert Pujols, Jacoby Ellsbury, Sinn Soo Choo, CC Sabathia, B.J. Upton, Carl Crawford, and others were foolish dollars spent on past performance rather than future long-term reality. Those types of long term dollars will sink a team...and forward thinking teams are now realizing this.

 

We can gripe about a last place finish, but we are going to have to adjust our thinking. Times are a changing and the long term, big dollar contracts favor the 30-something player and the agent...but not the team. When teams realize this, we hopefully will see a change. It will be better for baseball as a whole.

Next step after saving money for more bargain players is to give it back to the fans by lowering prices.............Hahahahahaha, sorry I couldnt keep a straight face for that long.

[Spitball]

I don't think it will just be the Red Sox changing. I think we will see teams going in a different direction to build contending teams. I expect the Sox will still pay out long term contracts for position players in their twenties and with their best playing days ahead. I am betting pitchers in their thirties will not be signed to more than 3 or 4 year deals.

 

The Yankees went out and spent lots of money this past winter and they are still just above .500.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

JBJ with a two game hitting streak.

 

 

[jad]

Exactly what have the RS seen or do they hope to see from Bradley and Middlebrooks that suggests things will be any different next year? Do they keep running these guys out there until, say, July 2015, hoping that maybe they will turn things around?

[Palodios]

Exactly what have the RS seen or do they hope to see from Bradley and Middlebrooks that suggests things will be any different next year? Do they keep running these guys out there until, say, July 2015, hoping that maybe they will turn things around?

 

They're giving them the opportunity to show something during a time when the games don't mean anything. What, would you rather Kelly Johnson and Alex Hassan out there? The team appears to be trying to protect Mookie and Cecchini from major league scouts incase they need trade chips for next year.

[Behindenemylines]

Exactly what have the RS seen or do they hope to see from Bradley and Middlebrooks that suggests things will be any different next year? Do they keep running these guys out there until, say, July 2015, hoping that maybe they will turn things around?

 

Sox are probably going to use them as trading chips. JBJ's D and WMB power potential give each some value. Hopefully, they still have some value. I'm seeing both just lost at the plate. The Sox need production from 3B and CF and these two have not proven they can play in Boston.

[jad]

Sox are probably going to use them as trading chips. JBJ's D and WMB power potential give each some value. Hopefully, they still have some value. I'm seeing both just lost at the plate. The Sox need production from 3B and CF and these two have not proven they can play in Boston.

 

I think you're right, but the logic is strange, isn't it. The RS have already given up on these two, and believe that their trade value couldn't really get lower than it is right now. So what the hell--let them play: maybe they'll get lucky at the plate and their value will go up. But as fans, we're not really watching the RS building for the future by 'playing the kids'.

[Spitball]

It is hard for me to understand how some Boston fans can be so negative. The Red Sox are the reigning champions. Cherington pulled off a masterful trade in 2012 when he unloaded the terrible long term contracts of Gonzalez, Crawford, and Beckett. Unlike most salary dumps, he acquired young prospects that hopefully will help head the rotation in the near future.

 

The Sox are suffering through a terrible season, but they are not handicapped with any handicapping long term contracts. They have money to spend...and we can only hope that it is spent intelligently. Teams with money have signed big money contracts for many years to players who will never be the productive players of their past. Pujols, Hamilton, C.J.Wilson, Sabathia, Teixiera, McCann, Fielder, Verlander, Crawford, B.J.Upton, and a few others are examples.

 

I am optimistic about the Red Sox future. They have the mindset to employ Moneyball...and the farm system and money to be successful for many years to come.

[seabeachfred]

It is hard for me to understand how some Boston fans can be so negative. The Red Sox are the reigning champions. Cherington pulled off a masterful trade in 2012 when he unloaded the terrible long term contracts of Gonzalez, Crawford, and Beckett. Unlike most salary dumps, he acquired young prospects that hopefully will help head the rotation in the near future.

 

The Sox are suffering through a terrible season, but they are not handicapped with any handicapping long term contracts. They have money to spend...and we can only hope that it is spent intelligently. Teams with money have signed big money contracts for many years to players who will never be the productive players of their past. Pujols, Hamilton, C.J.Wilson, Sabathia, Teixiera, McCann, Fielder, Verlander, Crawford, B.J.Upton, and a few others are examples.

 

I am optimistic about the Red Sox future. They have the mindset to employ Moneyball...and the farm system and money to be successful for many years to come.

 

Spitball, I like your "glass is half full instead of half empty" approach. Reminds me of my friend Palodios. However, the men you mention. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the teams they're on heading for the post-season??? We came out as defending champions and have fallen on our faces and all this talk about our farm system is now ringing hallow as our first two deposits, Bradley and Bogaerts, have been colossal failures this season and who know if either will recover. Bogey perhaps, Bradley never!!!!!! So we are still in the twilight zone as far as our future is concerned, and I'll tell you another thing. When the next bunch of kids come calling, the Cecchinis, the Betts, the Swiharts and the Owens', among ot hers, we have to hope they are not the same drags the aforementioned two have been.

[Dojji]

Spitball, I like your "glass is half full instead of half empty" approach. Reminds me of my friend Palodios. However, the men you mention. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the teams they're on heading for the post-season???

 

At the moment, yes, but in a fewy ears it's likely that most of them will go the way of the Phillies, which was another team not ashamed to dish out this kind of contract -- and the only reason NYY won't is because they can simply spend their way out of any stupid decisions they make.

 

This run of years was going to happen eventually in Boston. We've been losing star-level core players faster than we can replace them since at least 2008. 2012 was a very nice surprise, but that pattern is going to catch up to us eventually. The thing to do is simply do what you always do with a bad string of years. Live through it and hope the team management knows what it's doing.

 

The way Cherington's trying to rebuild the team is the only way the team *can* be rebuilt. The slow way isn't pleasant or fun in the short term, but the end results on average outstrip the "easy way" by an order of magnitude. Going hogwild on big contracts feels good in the short term but over the long run does more damage than it repairs, especially if you try to build a whole core squad out of it. It's a great way to supplement a strong, established core, but without those central pieces it won't work out, and our core pieces are either a) aging, showing some serious injury problems, or c) not here anymore.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Dojji

[jad]

Spitball, I like your "glass is half full instead of half empty" approach. Reminds me of my friend Palodios. However, the men you mention. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the teams they're on heading for the post-season??? We came out as defending champions and have fallen on our faces and all this talk about our farm system is now ringing hallow as our first two deposits, Bradley and Bogaerts, have been colossal failures this season and who know if either will recover. Bogey perhaps, Bradley never!!!!!! So we are still in the twilight zone as far as our future is concerned, and I'll tell you another thing. When the next bunch of kids come calling, the Cecchinis, the Betts, the Swiharts and the Owens', among ot hers, we have to hope they are not the same drags the aforementioned two have been.

 

Exactly. Beckett, Crawford, and Gonzalez are having so-so years by their career standards. Yet the RS have (... had) only one starter outperforming Beckett, and I believe only two hitters outhitting Gonzalez (or Ellsbury for that matter). The RS alternatives to Crawford (Victorino, Bradley, Sizemore)--make his year look pretty good as well. For a team with few salary constraints, I can't see how consistently getting rid of your top players is a good strategy (last year doesn't count, because they had J. "Winning Finds Me" Gomes, and could hardly have lost.)

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. Beckett, Crawford, and Gonzalez are having so-so years by their career standards. Yet the RS have (... had) only one starter outperforming Beckett, and I believe only two hitters outhitting Gonzalez (or Ellsbury for that matter). The RS alternatives to Crawford (Victorino, Bradley, Sizemore)--make his year look pretty good as well. For a team with few salary constraints, I can't see how consistently getting rid of your top players is a good strategy (last year doesn't count, because they had J. "Winning Finds Me" Gomes, and could hardly have lost.)

 

The Red Sox do have salary constraints though. Even the Yankees have salary constraints. They let their best player walk. I'm not sure people fully realize what a big development in baseball economics it was the day the Yankees decided to say goodbye to Cano.