The rebuild thread.

[a700hitter]

I know. I'm not trying to call you out or to prove you are wrong and that I am right. To much of that crap goes on around here.

I disagree. Prove me wrong.

[seabeachfred]

Also replying to comment by "example1" above that the manager and Cherington are intelligent .....

 

1. O.K. I am getting to be a "conspiracy theory" guy about these developments...... the conspiracy: Ferrell and Cherington are intelligent puppets manipulated by Henry to save as much money as possible whilst maintaining PR.

 

2. But let us now consider the batting coach issue brought up by jad. I heard John Kruk talk about JBJ extraneous foot motion during JBJ's swing. Maybe there is now an effort by Red Sox to increase the power of JBJ?? He went to an open stance, seemed to improve, then started to regress again. He keeps striking out on outside fastballs now, without trying to drive them to the opposite field.

 

If an emphasis on a power stroke is at work, that could be a mistake. In the 1950s there was a centerfielder, Richie Ashburn, who had a 311 B.A. for his 12 years with the Phillies. He was a brilliant defensive outfielder. Because of his lack of power Ashburn lost out on the first go round of voting into HOF, but was put in years later by the Veteran's Committee. I do not recall that Ashburn had anything like the throwing arm of JBJ.

 

Ashburn averaged only about 2 H.R. a year!

 

First I commend Ex1 for calling me out but doing it in a way that will make me think of all the different reasons for what the front office is doing, and the fact that I am lashing out verbally at Cherington and Farrell in a nasty way gives me some food for thought. And I certainly will not retaliate with something nasty of my own because what he said made sense and gave me pause

Where I am on a different wave length is that we have too many people in our front office with business or economics degrees with little actual background in baseball, either playing or coaching at the professional level. I notice some other organizations like the Angels and Cardinals have a goodly number of people with playing and coaching backgrounds. Computer printouts or spread sheets cannot take the place of stick to the bones aspect of baseball experience. Too many mistakes have been made personnel wise this season and what is obvious is that so many here saw these mistakes before the front office did. I also believe that it will take a good half-dozen seasons before the team recovers from that idiotic trading deadline when he traded away our No. 1 and 2 pitchers and saddled ourselves with stiffs like Webster, Workman and Buchholz who most likely will not win four or five more games between them this year.

[Spudboy]

I disagree. Prove me wrong.

 

lulz.

[Spudboy]

Come to think of it, this is an opportune time to apologize to SoxFanForsythe.

 

Shortly after the deadline deal with Oakland I got into it with him about Cespedes. I proclaimed our new slugger as someone with low OBP, which is atypical of the batters this team seems to favor. I stand by that and by my opinion that he is defensively deficient. He's Gomes with more speed and an accurate cannon of an arm. I misstated that Cespedes strikes out too much and that he did not walk enough. I had only given his offensive history a perfunctory look and made an incorrect assumption without crunching the numbers.

 

Subsequently I trolled SFF. I allowed the conversation to devolve into a pointless, immature, and unpleasant personal attack. Such behavior is beneath me and makes me a hypocrite.

 

Since I did this all in a public way I think it is only correct that I apologize in a public way too.

 

I'm sorry Forsythe.

[reYoukilis]

First I commend Ex1 for calling me out but doing it in a way that will make me think of all the different reasons for what the front office is doing, and the fact that I am lashing out verbally at Cherington and Farrell in a nasty way gives me some food for thought. And I certainly will not retaliate with something nasty of my own because what he said made sense and gave me pause

Where I am on a different wave length is that we have too many people in our front office with business or economics degrees with little actual background in baseball, either playing or coaching at the professional level. I notice some other organizations like the Angels and Cardinals have a goodly number of people with playing and coaching backgrounds. Computer printouts or spread sheets cannot take the place of stick to the bones aspect of baseball experience. Too many mistakes have been made personnel wise this season and what is obvious is that so many here saw these mistakes before the front office did. I also believe that it will take a good half-dozen seasons before the team recovers from that idiotic trading deadline when he traded away our No. 1 and 2 pitchers and saddled ourselves with stiffs like Webster, Workman and Buchholz who most likely will not win four or five more games between them this year.

Angels? I dont think they are a good example. Cardinals sure but not Angels. Also weve won three titles since the Angels won theirs and are up on the Cards by one in recent times. Also the Angels paid for Pujols for ten years of his decline. When will that Plantar Fasci.... spring up again?

 

We're basically the best MLB team in the last ten years counting championships. One of which we are still the holder of.

[example1]

Bradley Jr with another couple of very nice plays tonight. One of them in the 9th could have been really important. Appropriately the Angels announcers were raving about his defense, talking about him making just another spectacular play. He's already developed a reputation as an elite CF, maybe THE elite CF. Ask yourself: if the ball is hit in the air is there another player in the league you want chasing it? He's multiple steps above Ellsbury, who is pretty good.

 

If that's the case then you can only call his defense one thing: a bonafide weapon. The play he made tonight saved a double or maybe a triple. We give him s*** for not hitting but hardly notice the implications of his defense. That double is as valuable offensively as it is defensively, yet we look at only his offensive production and downplay metrics that attempt to quantify defensive value. By those measures he's been above replacement level no matter what WAR you use. He's a top 5 defensive player in baseball, across all positions. What his defensive value says is basically that pretty frequently he's taking away hits that most of his peers wouldn't be able to catch.

 

Hell, I don't blame the FO for not selling low or demoting this guy. Even a little offense would give him tremendous overall value. Plus, with such a bad season for the team it's a good chance to stick with him, at least more than would usually be the case

[Spudboy]

He makes plays that remove base runners and saves runs almost every game. He's a blast to watch play in the outfield. Probably the best defensive CF for the Sox since Fred Lynn.

 

But when he comes up to bat it's my signal to go to the bathroom. The results are almost always the same.

 

I can't believe that he is a lost cause. He was able to change his stance etc. and show consistent improvement for 3-4 weeks. I see no reason why he can't make those adjustments again and eventually become a decent hitter.

[a700hitter]

Bradley Jr with another couple of very nice plays tonight. One of them in the 9th could have been really important. Appropriately the Angels announcers were raving about his defense, talking about him making just another spectacular play. He's already developed a reputation as an elite CF, maybe THE elite CF. Ask yourself: if the ball is hit in the air is there another player in the league you want chasing it? He's multiple steps above Ellsbury, who is pretty good.

 

If that's the case then you can only call his defense one thing: a bonafide weapon. The play he made tonight saved a double or maybe a triple. We give him s*** for not hitting but hardly notice the implications of his defense. That double is as valuable offensively as it is defensively, yet we look at only his offensive production and downplay metrics that attempt to quantify defensive value. By those measures he's been above replacement level no matter what WAR you use. He's a top 5 defensive player in baseball, across all positions. What his defensive value says is basically that pretty frequently he's taking away hits that most of his peers wouldn't be able to catch.

 

Hell, I don't blame the FO for not selling low or demoting this guy. Even a little offense would give him tremendous overall value. Plus, with such a bad season for the team it's a good chance to stick with him, at least more than would usually be the case

We are all very aware of his defense. But as Kruk said on Sunday, if you can't hit, you can't play. It is as simple as that. A guy that strikes out 150 times and hits 1 HR is not going to play even if he has 2 gloves.

[seabeachfred]

Angels? I dont think they are a good example. Cardinals sure but not Angels. Also weve won three titles since the Angels won theirs and are up on the Cards by one in recent times. Also the Angels paid for Pujols for ten years of his decline. When will that Plantar Fasci.... spring up again?

 

We're basically the best MLB team in the last ten years counting championships. One of which we are still the holder of.

 

The Angels changed course a couple of years ago and brought in baseball people to run the show. Jerry DiPoto pitched in the Big Leagues and their FO has numerous people with a baseball background. I think the point you might have been stressing is their minor league system which was ranked at the bottom of the pile. Keep in mind though that they made a number of trades and made some FA pickups that stripped their minor leagues and cost them a couple of valuable first picks. Anyway, I think the Red Sox would benefit from baseball trained people helping out in the FO. As for our three WS Titles the past ten seasons, I guess I have to give you that one. Three in ten nowadays is about as good as it gets.

[seabeachfred]

We are all very aware of his defense. But as Kruk said on Sunday, if you can't hit, you can't play. It is as simple as that. A guy that strikes out 150 times and hits 1 HR is not going to play even if he has 2 gloves.

 

He was used correctly by Farrell last night----a defensive replacement late in a close contest. I needn't go into is hitting now because we all know my take on that. If we use him correctly as we did last evening I think we get good defense bordering on the spectacular and now have worry about ineptness at the plate.

[curiousd]

I should clarify that this is no different than most sports organizations. They all have this goal. It's all about making money, not winning. They only try to win to help them make money.

 

There is a financial reality being overlooked here. There have been MLB teams with such well heeled, kind of "sugar daddy" types of owners, that these owners are willing to take a financial hit for the franchise. The Yawkeys came from a huge pot of money gleaned from timber and iron in the mid west. By the time Duquette was G.M. the RS were past racial discrimination issues enough that Duquette was able to make big offers to Manny Ramirez, Pedro M, etc.

 

Henry never had Yawkey kind of money but in his first RS years at least had his stock market investment company, as well as various sports interests, plus the Globe. But the investment company went down the tubes by the end of 2012.

 

So nowadays Henry has to make most of his dough out of sports management. Cherington will not be allowed to do anything like the Duquette spending (Yawkey money) or even the Theo spending under the money base Henry had when Henry first took over the RS.

[a700hitter]

This article documents the utter failure of Bradley and the extreme disappointment of XB. It also provides context with other Red Sox rookies.

 

Questions linger on value of Xander Bogaerts, Jackie Bradley Jr.

 

By Nick Cafardo | GLOBE STAFF AUGUST 10, 2014

 

Rookies Xander Bogaerts (left) and Jackie Bradley Jr. have struggled this season.

They might blossom into terrific players, but the rookie seasons of Xander Bogaerts and Jackie Bradley Jr. have the baseball world wondering, “How good are they?”

 

Players usually show something positive in their rookie seasons. Bradley has been stellar defensively, but his hitting has been off-the-charts bad. Bogaerts hasn’t excelled in either area, though at 21 he’s the youngest Red Sox rookie starter since Ellis Burks in 1987.

 

Dustin Pedroia won AL Rookie of the Year hitting .317 with an .823 OPS in 2007. Jacoby Ellsbury hit .280 with 50 steals in 2008 in his rookie season. Mike Greenwell hit .328 with 19 homers and 89 RBIs with a .956 OPS in his first full season in 1987 and finished fourth in the Rookie of the Year voting. Burks, 22 at the time, hit .272 with 20 homers, 59 RBIs, and 27 steals.

 

Is it a lack of seasoning for Bogaerts and Bradley? Hurried to the majors? Bogaerts had 225 at-bats at Triple A, Bradley 320. Former Red Sox GM Theo Epstein always believed you should get 500 at-bats in Triple A.

 

Have both players lost value?

 

Exposure can be good and bad. In Bradley Jr.’s case, it was a bad thing.

 

“Put it this way, at one time he would have been a featured piece in a deal, now he’d be a throw-in,” a National League adviser said about Bradley’s value. “He’s an outstanding center fielder, but there’s absolutely no sign of the hitting getting better. He can be pitched to and he doesn’t seem to have the capacity to adjust. He gets fooled with offspeed stuff and he’s getting overpowered by fastballs. The Red Sox have a tough call there. They’ve given him every opportunity.’’

 

 

The Red Sox have no idea if Bogaerts is a shortstop or a third baseman. They have no idea what type of hitter he is.

 

The good news is he’s 21. And right now that’s about as good as it gets.

 

I asked statistician Bill Chuck for stats to reflect the futility of these youngsters. It’s gruesome.

 

Bradley has the seventh highest strikeout rate in the majors at 28.4 percent, tied with Phillies slugger Ryan Howard. Bogaerts is tied for the third lowest home run rate (0.3 percent). Bradley has 70 hits; only sluggers Adam Dunn (69) and Chris Davis (67) have fewer. Bradley swings at pitches out of the strike zone 26.7 percent of the time. He hits the ball on the ground at a 47.8 percent clip

 

On pitchers’ counts, Bradley is hitting .154. He has gone hitless in 52 games this season. He has struck out in 68 games. He’s had 17 multi-hit games. He’s had 18 extra-base hit games. Among batters with fewer than five homers, he has the most strikeouts (1 HR, 102 K’s). Starling Marte is next (5/96). Bradley’s had 28 multi-strikeout games.

 

Bradley is on his second homerless streak of 48 games. He’s hitting .214 at Fenway and .218 on the road.

 

Leading off an inning he’s hitting .130. On pitches that are up, he’s hitting .087; up in the middle part of the plate, he’s hitting .050. He’s hitting .128 on curves, .143 on sliders. He has swung at 626 pitches, missed 174, chased 180.

 

Ouch.

 

Bogaerts?

 

He swings at pitches out of the strike zone 25.7 percent of the time. He has a 38.3 percent called strike percentage, the eighth highest in the majors.

 

When Bogaerts has two strikes (which he has had 259 times), he’s hitting .191. With a runner on third and less than two outs, Bogaerts is hitting .063 (1 for 16). He has had 50 productive out opportunities and has been successful 13 times. He has come to the plate with 254 runners on base and 21 have scored (8 percent). He has had 87 strikeouts swinging and 18 looking. Of the 87 swinging, he’s getting killed on pitches down, in and around the strike zone, which accounts for 56 of the whiffs; 47 are on pitches on the outer half of the plate.

 

On pitches down and away, he’s hitting .106. Of his 93 hits, only 11 are to the opposite field. He has gone hitless in 42 games this season. He has gone RBI-less in 81 games this season. He has extra-base hits in 28 games. He has struck out in 67 games.

 

With two outs, he’s hitting .192. With runners in scoring position he’s hitting .116. With men on he’s hitting .174. With two outs and runners in scoring position, he’s hitting .093.

 

He has hit .182 as a third baseman and .282 at short. Since moving back to shortstop on Aug. 1, he’s 3 for 24 (heading into Friday). The Red Sox organization does not believe the back-and-forth moves have led to the downward spiral at the plate. Bogaerts simply hasn’t made adjustments. Bogaerts and Bradley were the two most touted Sox’ prospects since Pedroia and Ellsbury, Nomar Garciaparra and Jason Varitek (who was developed by the Mariners), Burks and Greenwell. All had very good major league careers.

 

Although there’s still six weeks to go, the Red Sox might not know at season’s end what they have in Bogaerts and Bradley. They will commit to Bogaerts, but Bradley seems to have to show some marked improvement to have the center-field job handed to him for 2015.

 

Never have two young players been so hyped by their own team and by the media (guilty as charged). But nobody saw this coming.

[a700hitter]

So nowadays Henry has to make most of his dough out of sports management. Cherington will not be allowed to do anything like the Duquette spending (Yawkey money) or even the Theo spending under the money base Henry had when Henry first took over the RS.

Yawkey money and open purse was long gone when Duke was the GM.

[dupree]

Hopefully the Sox sign Rusney Castillo and he can actually hit. Then get rid of JBJ. Can't be soon enough.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I would love to see the Sox sign Rusney Castillo, but with my luck, he would be the one Cuban player that sucks.

 

I won't be surprised in the least to see JBJ sent down before the Reds series and Mookie brought up to play CF. I'd like to see what Mookie can do on an everyday basis while JBJ goes down to AAA to try to figure out his swing a little bit.

[a700hitter]

I would love to see the Sox sign Rusney Castillo, but with my luck, he would be the one Cuban player that sucks.

 

I won't be surprised in the least to see JBJ sent down before the Reds series and Mookie brought up to play CF. I'd like to see what Mookie can do on an everyday basis while JBJ goes down to AAA to try to figure out his swing a little bit.

Have you finally given up hope that Bradley can figure things out at this level by continuing to play and stink out the ballpark?

[redsoxrules]

XB should go down as well.

[Thunder]

XB should go down as well.

 

Who do we call up?

[redsoxrules]

Since Jun 1st ( span of 55 games ) he's hitting 162/193/267/459.

I'm sure someone in the minors can manage that

[Bellhorn04]

Have you finally given up hope that Bradley can figure things out at this level by continuing to play and stink out the ballpark?

 

The solution to the JBJ problem is staring us in the face. Just make him our Designated Late Inning Defender. It's the same role that Coco Crisp performed brilliantly in the 2007 playoffs after being benched for Ellsbury, and JBJ has clearly shown the merit of this maneuver a few times in recent games.

 

The DLID slot could even acquire the same type of prestige now bestowed on closers...though not paid nearly as well.

[d-money]

Why doesnt farrell bring ranaudo up? It makes zero sense.This is suppose to be a pitching audition from here to the end of the year.

[Palodios]

Why doesnt farrell bring ranaudo up? It makes zero sense.This is suppose to be a pitching audition from here to the end of the year.

 

It probably has to do with Buchholz publicly shouting to the world that he's healthy. Workman, Webster, Kelly and RDLR are the guys being auditoned right now. Ranaudo is probably in the next round.

[Palodios]

Here's a thought. Russell Martin. Remember that guy? He's only 31 and is back to free agency again. Career .355 OBP, .750 OPS, but he has a lot of success in the last few years. The Red Sox have rushed their prospects way too much lately, and maybe he could help give Swihart some breathing room on a high AAV 1 or 2 year deal.

[BigPapi]

Here's a thought. Russell Martin. Remember that guy? He's only 31 and is back to free agency again. Career .355 OBP, .750 OPS, but he has a lot of success in the last few years. The Red Sox have rushed their prospects way too much lately, and maybe he could help give Swihart some breathing room on a high AAV 1 or 2 year deal.

 

Russell martin seems like a pretty good idea. And is swihart seen as our primary catcher for the future and vasquez isn't?

[Palodios]

Russell martin seems like a pretty good idea. And is swihart seen as our primary catcher for the future and vasquez isn't?

 

Vazquez is a beautiful glove. During the Cardinals broadcast last week, they mentioned that he trains with the Molinas in the offseason. Hoever, I am not sure how the Red Sox FO sees his future with the bat.

[BigPapi]

Vazquez is a beautiful glove. During the Cardinals broadcast last week, they mentioned that he trains with the Molinas in the offseason. Hoever, I am not sure how the Red Sox FO sees his future with the bat.

 

Wow I didn't know swihart climbed that high. He is rated as the number 2 catching prospect in baseball and the number 3 prospect in our organization now. Vasquez is not in the top ten so I would assume swihart projects as our next guy most definitley.

[Northern Star]

Wow I didn't know swihart climbed that high. He is rated as the number 2 catching prospect in baseball and the number 3 prospect in our organization now. Vasquez is not in the top ten so I would assume swihart projects as our next guy most definitley.

 

Vazquez would certainly not be a bad backup at all.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

Do we need to replace our hitting coach?

[Palodios]

Do we need to replace our hitting coach?

 

Greg Colbrunn had a brain hemorrhage back in July. While not an excuse for bad hitting, I would believe there is a strong correlation between his misfortune, and this offense's misfortune.

[a700hitter]

Greg Colbrunn had a brain hemorrhage back in July. While not an excuse for bad hitting, I would believe there is a strong correlation between his misfortune, and this offense's misfortune.

I agree that our offense looks like it has had a stroke.