The rebuild thread.

[a700hitter]

Disagree. 100 times disagree. The Phillies are going to have a fire sale this winter, count on it. And Hamels will be the first piece to go.

 

If the Phillies eat some money, I'll send over some prospects.

He's the most valuable piece that they have, and without him, they have no rotation. He will stay a Phillie unless he can fleece some team.

[a700hitter]

I agree. Hamels is actually worth the contract he has, so the Red Sox will need to overpay in prospects, or take some money back in a trade. Ruiz/Burnett/Papelbon make some sense here, and with that kind of trade, the Phillies can get out of payroll hell, minus Howard.

 

Those players also fill holes for the Red Sox, and are only short-term salaries to take on.

 

I could see taking Ruiz and Burnett. They would fill holes, but we probably wouldn't take Papelbon if we are re-signing Koji. If we take two of them and some second tier prospects, I could see it. We are not getting Hamels straight up for second tier prospects.

[seabeachfred]

Jon Heyman is reporting that the Sox are going to make a very strong, aggressive push for Stanton this winter.

 

Can you imagine Stanton and Cespedes as your corner outfielders? My goodness.

 

My goodness??? What the hell are we going to do for starting pitching SFF? We could score seven or eight runs a game and still lose 90 of them with the garbage like Webster and Buchholz toeing the rubber. We need at least two standout starting pitchers and with Prune Face holding on tight to his damned money we will not get them. Unless we do how does another 2014 type season sound. Also we have to trade Bogaerts and Bradley while they still have some interest from other teams. They are lemons. Are you aware that X is hitting less than 130 with RISP. As I said in April we could have a choker on our hands. I will say this August....WE DO HAVE A CHOKER ON OUR HANDS.

[seabeachfred]

Why aren't they going to get 2 of those pitchers again? They've got loads of money. And they've only got a few places to spend it.

 

I can see them working around Allen Craig to have Cespedes and Stanton in the lineup. Either trading Craig in the deal for Stanton, or potentially trading Napoli, since his deal is up in 2015 and a team can't offer a QO if they don't have him all year.

 

Just some ideas. Not saying these are better than other ideas, but if you told me I was going into 2015 with a rotation of Lester Shields Kelly Buch RDLR, and this lineup with Stanton in it? I'm good with that.

 

Why SFF? Isn't it obvious that Henry has become a cheap bastard and wants to hold onto his money and try winning on the cheap. The Lester tragedy should be proof enough for everyone, and regardless what some say Jon is NOT coming back to Boston. That train has left the station. We are going to have to really pony up to trade for Hamels if he's even available and pay through the nose for Shields. I just don't think Henry will do it. How about another 2014 type season? That's what we have if we don't get those two solid pitchers and get rid of Bradley and use Bogaerts in the trade for Hamelss if the Phillies would even consider taking him off of our hands.

[Palodios]

Why SFF? Isn't it obvious that Henry has become a cheap bastard and wants to hold onto his money and try winning on the cheap.

 

We heard the same exact thing after 2012, and the FO went out and bought 7 expensive free agents. This year, they added AJ and Mujica, and then added Drew for 10 million midseason. These guys aren't cheap, they're frugal. Contrary to what most wives think, there is a big difference between the two.

[SoxFanForsyth]

My goodness??? What the hell are we going to do for starting pitching SFF? We could score seven or eight runs a game and still lose 90 of them with the garbage like Webster and Buchholz toeing the rubber. We need at least two standout starting pitchers and with Prune Face holding on tight to his damned money we will not get them. Unless we do how does another 2014 type season sound. Also we have to trade Bogaerts and Bradley while they still have some interest from other teams. They are lemons. Are you aware that X is hitting less than 130 with RISP. As I said in April we could have a choker on our hands. I will say this August....WE DO HAVE A CHOKER ON OUR HANDS.

 

I'm using this as my sig so that next year, you can have a chuckle at yourself.

[Spudboy]

lol

[seabeachfred]

I just don't see them spending to get Lester back. I would be happy if they did, I just don't see it happening. I can't argue with it. I have a hard time seeing contracts for guys 30+ that end up being successful. Yes, we can say that it would be successful if they won a World Series during that time, but is it really reasonable to base our view of Jon Lester's contract on whether David Ortiz hits an 8th inning 3 run homer to win a pivotal game? Jon Lester's contribution, no matter how great, would be only partially responsible for the World Series. There's a lot of luck involved in that.

 

If we want to try to remove the luck from it then we should look at what the pitcher controls, and what the pitcher controls is his performance when pitching. In that regard, Lester has performed very well over the past few years. He could still be very good over the next 6-7 years, but he would have to be producing at his current level through that time to warrant 20+ million a year. The Red Sox are one of the most valuable and prominent franchises in the world in any sport. I can understand why the Sox would think they can fill his role well before those 6-7 years are up, for much less money.

 

You know Ex1, you've been posting some pretty impressive s*** since you got back on. You must have been thinking and thinking during your absence and I can't see anything that I could criticize----even if I wanted to. I do think that after what went down last season, a total surprise to me, it would be possible to net a World Series Title during a new six year stint for Lester. Since I agree with you that Jon is NOT coming back to Boston, what are the alternatives. Mine are this--One, we trade for Cole Hamels and make a good offer to the Phillies, and two, we need James Shields, no matter what others may think of the guy. Minus that, we are in deep do-do. Now Cherington has to find a way to get us those two good pitchers whether it's the two I mentioned or some others, whoever the hell they may be or wherever they might be now.

[seabeachfred]

They're not going to get much for a guy who is making $24mm a year, I'll tell you that.

 

Amaro is in love with Middlebrooks, so I can see him being in the deal. Eduardo, Middlebrooks, and JBJ could seal it.

 

It will take more than WMB and JBJ and Eduardo......like your boy Bogaerts, a SS the Philllies need badly since they need someone to take Rollins' spot or for third where the Phillies are worse off than we are.

[seabeachfred]

When Craig turned his ankle in his first game, my first thought was that he might miss significant time. Afterward, I thought about whether the Sox had checked out the ankle. Our medical staff seems to miss a lot of obvious conditions.

 

The more that I think about it I am more convinced that his down performance is directly related to the condition of his ankle. Ankle injuries can be devastating. Fred and Spud and maybe a couple of others remember Tommy Davis. He was a big prospect for the Brooklyn Dodgers who hit the majors with a splash in LA. He was a fleet footed OFer with all the tools. One season in the early 1960's, hit .340 or 350 and knocked in something like 150 runs. The next season he broke his ankle. He played for about 10 more seasons, but he never again approached being the player he had been before the injury. He could hit enough to keep a job, but he became a liability in the field. He became a journeyman playing for the White Sox, Mets, Orioles and A's and maybe some others. Prior to his injury Craig did not have the gifts that Tommy Davis had. 2014 may not be an off year for Craig. It may be his new norm.

 

One again you nailed it my friend and made it clear how an ankle injury can derail a career. Fortunately, Craig's injury is nothing close to what Tommy Davis suffered on May 1, 1965. His ankle was shattered and I mean bent and twisted like a pretzel. I remember listening to that game that Saturday evening. Davis came back the next year and hit 313 in a semi-platoon basis but he couldn't field or run anymore. Ankle injuries can be fatal to a player.

[reYoukilis]

It will take more than WMB and JBJ and Eduardo......like your boy Bogaerts, a SS the Philllies need badly since they need someone to take Rollins' spot or for third where the Phillies are worse off than we are.

Before we start dealing away all of our players, lets look at who we already dealt away. Sizemore seems like hes found his form again, Peavey nearly had a perfect game, AJP is hitting 320 avg, Lester is one of the best pitchers in the league... Maybe patience is whats required. Maybe we should chill out and stop demanding production yesterday.

[seabeachfred]

Before we start dealing away all of our players, lets look at who we already dealt away. Sizemore seems like hes found his form again, Peavey nearly had a perfect game, AJP is hitting 320 avg, Lester is one of the best pitchers in the league... Maybe patience is whats required. Maybe we should chill out and stop demanding production yesterday.

 

re--I'd settle for some production from Bogaerts starting tonight. We have not gotten it and what's worse is this guy is totally useless with RISP. As for those guys you mentioned, maybe we could have kept Sizemore a little longer but our team would not play him in CF because they had their pet Bradley out there and also felt Grady couldn't play CF anymore. AJ was just a bad fit for us and let's see how he performs when the book on him gets around. Peavy still hasn't won a game and the Lester trade was the most disastrous thing the Red Sox have done in the past dozen years. So Youk, I think there is more there than meets the eye.

[a700hitter]

Before we start dealing away all of our players, lets look at who we already dealt away. Sizemore seems like hes found his form again, Peavey nearly had a perfect game, AJP is hitting 320 avg, Lester is one of the best pitchers in the league... Maybe patience is whats required. Maybe we should chill out and stop demanding production yesterday.

LOL!! Sarcasm I hope. Plenty of patience buried us in last place. I would have kept Sizemore and sent Bradley to the minors. I also would have kep AJ who can hit a little and DFA'd Ross who in 2 seasons with us can't make it to the Mendoza line, plus he has had Panter Fasciatis (sp) all season long. But the problem hasn't been a lack patience.

[curiousd]

The Lackey trade may end up being a historically bad trade. Fortunately, this means we will see more Mookie.

 

Here we are, playing the Cardinals August 8, and JBJ is striking out pathetically while Mookie has been shipped back to AAA. Any theory from anyone as to what is going on??!!

[jd98]

Here we are, playing the Cardinals August 8, and JBJ is striking out pathetically while Mookie has been shipped back to AAA. Any theory from anyone as to what is going on??!!

 

When Drew left, he sold JBJ the video he had of Farrell and Cherington in an orgy of hookers and drugs.

[dupree]

What about that kid Corey Brown that the Sox purchased a few days ago from the Nationals. Any scouting report on him. I hope he can play elite defense that way we can get rid of jbj. Because it seems like jbj needs a lot more seasoning. Brown is a CF that bats left. I wonder if he can lead off. Don't get me wrong I like Holt but I think of him as our super utility guy but I'd rather see him in CF rather than JBJ just because he can lead off for us if he learns to play center in Fenway. I think with all the players we have we are getting a lil to right handed hitting. We need another lefty in the lineup. Maybe Vic gets healthy and he will lead off and play center next year if his back ain't screwed up all next year.

[seabeachfred]

Here we are, playing the Cardinals August 8, and JBJ is striking out pathetically while Mookie has been shipped back to AAA. Any theory from anyone as to what is going on??!!

 

jd's answer might be acceptable considering how idiotic Farrell and Cherington have been over their love affair with Jackie Bradley. Let me be frank---In my opinion only the acolytes and bootlickers who live and swear by whatever the front office does can even dare to defend their continuous playing of a player who has proven he can't hit now, didn't in ST, didn't in his time with us last year and will not hit this month or next month or next year. How much damn time to they need to see that they have a complete lemon on their hands? My other opinion as to why we are in this pathetic state of affairs is that both those dufuses running the team are scared shitless that if they do send JBJ down to the minors he fail down there as well with the bat, rendering Farrell and Cherington bigger morons than they have already proven themselves to be this season. To be certain, everything they've touched this season has turned to s***.

[example1]

jd's answer might be acceptable considering how idiotic Farrell and Cherington have been over their love affair with Jackie Bradley. Let me be frank---In my opinion only the acolytes and bootlickers who live and swear by whatever the front office does can even dare to defend their continuous playing of a player who has proven he can't hit now, didn't in ST, didn't in his time with us last year and will not hit this month or next month or next year. How much damn time to they need to see that they have a complete lemon on their hands? My other opinion as to why we are in this pathetic state of affairs is that both those dufuses running the team are scared shitless that if they do send JBJ down to the minors he fail down there as well with the bat, rendering Farrell and Cherington bigger morons than they have already proven themselves to be this season. To be certain, everything they've touched this season has turned to s***.

 

I've never understood why you resort to such vitriolic statements about people who are managing a baseball team. They aren't morons. You wouldn't find a single other person in the entire game who would say such things about them. Not one. No other GM, or manager or executive would look at Ben Cherington or John Farrell and use words like dufus or moron. It seems perfectly reasonable to critique their decisions or whatever but the personal stuff just reminds everyone that you take this very personally and, as such, probably aren't grounded enough for a rational analysis.

 

You might be right about Bradley, or you might not. When you're talking about guys who are world-class athletes (which he undoubtedly is) there's reason to believe/hope/assume that he will adjust, or improve. You don't assume after 139 games that you've seen the entire picture of a player who, at his age, could theoretically have 1800 games remaining in his career.

 

Here's a list of players over the past decade or so who have had a lower WAR total (fangraphs) over their first 145 or so games than Bradley has had. I see a few players here who turned into pretty good players despite bad starts:

 

Ken Harvey

Mark Teahen

Jose Castillo

Brad Hawpe

Abraham Nunez

Eduardo Nunez

Ron Calloway

Brandon Phillips

Alexi Amarista

Luis Valbuena

Jeremy Hermida

Shea Hillenbrand

Brian Anderson

Aaron Miles

Justin Turner

Kevin Frandsen

Jamey Carroll

Gerardo Parra

Robinson Cano

Dexter Fowler

Xander Bogaerts

Chris Snyder

Michael Saunders

Micah Hoffpauir

Damon Hollins

Steve Lombardozzi

Carlos Pena

Brent Morel

Nate McLouth

JD Closser

Paul Janish

Alex Sanchez

J.P. Arencibia

Lucas Duda

Brennan Boesch

Jason Repko

Coco Crisp

Jeff Bianchi

Cory Sullivan

Geronimo Gil

Eric Hosmer

Chris Burke

Miguel Olivo

Alexei Ramirez

Alex Avila

Ian Kinsler

Anthony Rizzo

Gregor Blanco

Melky Cabrera

Clete Thomas

Matt Carpenter

Wilin Rosario

 

I wouldn't write him off. He may be a dud on that list rather than one of the good ones, but again, he's a tremendous athlete who plays gold glove defense and can throw a ball out of the park from home plate. They aren't dufuses for wanting him to have all the chance possible to prove himself--especially when the team is s***ing the bed across the board and eliminated from the playoffs so early. You are a good, long time baseball fan. You know that sometimes players come up and suck and then just "find it". It's shocking that you don't cite the longitudinal aspects of player development more often.

Edited August 8, 2014 by example1

[jad]

Watching Bradley at the plate makes me wonder exactly what it is that hitting coaches do? If a guy has an eccentric stance, one that leads to a 'happy' lead foot (I don't think any successful hitter has this), and consequent (? I think) off-balance swings and bad timing (he almost fell over last night looking at an third strike on the outside corner or slightly off the plate), WHY doesn't a hitting coach make changes?

[Bellhorn04]

Here we are, playing the Cardinals August 8, and JBJ is striking out pathetically while Mookie has been shipped back to AAA. Any theory from anyone as to what is going on??!!

 

Sure. Bradley is getting the long look. He's getting a whole season to see if he can hit ML pitching or not. Because if the answer is no, they have to make plans for next year without him. That's my guess at least.

[a700hitter]

I've never understood why you resort to such vitriolic statements about people who are managing a baseball team. They aren't morons. You wouldn't find a single other person in the entire game who would say such things about them. Not one. No other GM, or manager or executive would look at Ben Cherington or John Farrell and use words like dufus or moron. It seems perfectly reasonable to critique their decisions or whatever but the personal stuff just reminds everyone that you take this very personally and, as such, probably aren't grounded enough for a rational analysis.

 

You might be right about Bradley, or you might not. When you're talking about guys who are world-class athletes (which he undoubtedly is) there's reason to believe/hope/assume that he will adjust, or improve. You don't assume after 139 games that you've seen the entire picture of a player who, at his age, could theoretically have 1800 games remaining in his career.

 

Here's a list of players over the past decade or so who have had a lower WAR total (fangraphs) over their first 145 or so games than Bradley has had. I see a few players here who turned into pretty good players despite bad starts:

 

Ken Harvey

Mark Teahen

Jose Castillo

Brad Hawpe

Abraham Nunez

Eduardo Nunez

Ron Calloway

Brandon Phillips

Alexi Amarista

Luis Valbuena

Jeremy Hermida

Shea Hillenbrand

Brian Anderson

Aaron Miles

Justin Turner

Kevin Frandsen

Jamey Carroll

Gerardo Parra

Robinson Cano

Dexter Fowler

Xander Bogaerts

Chris Snyder

Michael Saunders

Micah Hoffpauir

Damon Hollins

Steve Lombardozzi

Carlos Pena

Brent Morel

Nate McLouth

JD Closser

Paul Janish

Alex Sanchez

J.P. Arencibia

Lucas Duda

Brennan Boesch

Jason Repko

Coco Crisp

Jeff Bianchi

Cory Sullivan

Geronimo Gil

Eric Hosmer

Chris Burke

Miguel Olivo

Alexei Ramirez

Alex Avila

Ian Kinsler

Anthony Rizzo

Gregor Blanco

Melky Cabrera

Clete Thomas

Matt Carpenter

Wilin Rosario

 

I wouldn't write him off. He may be a dud on that list rather than one of the good ones, but again, he's a tremendous athlete who plays gold glove defense and can throw a ball out of the park from home plate. They aren't dufuses for wanting him to have all the chance possible to prove himself--especially when the team is s***ing the bed across the board and eliminated from the playoffs so early. You are a good, long time baseball fan. You know that sometimes players come up and suck and then just "find it". It's shocking that you don't cite the longitudinal aspects of player development more often.

E1 it is great to have you back, but we differ fundamentally about the intellectual prowess of managers.

[curiousd]

Watching Bradley at the plate makes me wonder exactly what it is that hitting coaches do? If a guy has an eccentric stance, one that leads to a 'happy' lead foot (I don't think any successful hitter has this), and consequent (? I think) off-balance swings and bad timing (he almost fell over last night looking at an third strike on the outside corner or slightly off the plate), WHY doesn't a hitting coach make changes?

 

Also replying to comment by "example1" above that the manager and Cherington are intelligent .....

 

1. O.K. I am getting to be a "conspiracy theory" guy about these developments...... the conspiracy: Ferrell and Cherington are intelligent puppets manipulated by Henry to save as much money as possible whilst maintaining PR.

 

2. But let us now consider the batting coach issue brought up by jad. I heard John Kruk talk about JBJ extraneous foot motion during JBJ's swing. Maybe there is now an effort by Red Sox to increase the power of JBJ?? He went to an open stance, seemed to improve, then started to regress again. He keeps striking out on outside fastballs now, without trying to drive them to the opposite field.

 

If an emphasis on a power stroke is at work, that could be a mistake. In the 1950s there was a centerfielder, Richie Ashburn, who had a 311 B.A. for his 12 years with the Phillies. He was a brilliant defensive outfielder. Because of his lack of power Ashburn lost out on the first go round of voting into HOF, but was put in years later by the Veteran's Committee. I do not recall that Ashburn had anything like the throwing arm of JBJ.

 

Ashburn averaged only about 2 H.R. a year!

[a700hitter]

Also replying to comment by "example1" above that the manager and Cherington are intelligent .....

 

1. O.K. I am getting to be a "conspiracy theory" guy about these developments...... the conspiracy: Ferrell and Cherington are intelligent puppets manipulated by Henry to save as much money as possible whilst maintaining PR.

 

Conspiracy? Other than your assumptions about Farrell and Cherrington being intelligent, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. This probably the main goal for the Red Sox organization.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

This is officially the worst fanbase in all of sports.

[a700hitter]

This is officially the worst fanbase in all of sports.

That is about as official as the desgnation of Fenway Park as "America's Most Beloved Ballpark."

[a700hitter]

Conspiracy? Other than your assumptions about Farrell and Cherrington being intelligent, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. This probably the main goal for the Red Sox organization.

I should clarify that this is no different than most sports organizations. They all have this goal. It's all about making money, not winning. They only try to win to help them make money.

[Bellhorn04]

Well, the much-maligned Drew signing this year did at least demonstrate that the FO was willing to take on more payroll that they really didn't have to, in order to try to upgrade the team.

[Spudboy]

Well, the much-maligned Drew signing this year did at least demonstrate that the FO was willing to take on more payroll that they really didn't have to, in order to try to upgrade the team.

 

And Cherrington verbally acknowledged that signing Drew was ultimately a mistake. And in trading Drew away they owned up to the mistake further. Which is one reason that I do not understand why some believe that Bradley has not been demoted to Pawtucket just because Farrell and Luchino don't want to be further embarrassed if Bradley fails to hit there too.

 

The Sox brass has made some mistakes this year. Most of us know this.

Edited August 8, 2014 by Spudboy

[Bellhorn04]

And Cherrington verbally acknowledged that signing Drew was ultimately a mistake. And in trading Drew away they owned up to the mistake further. which is one reason that I do not understand why some believe that Bradley has not been demoted to Pawtucket just because Farrell and Luchino don't want to be further embarrassed if Bradly fails to hit there too.

 

The Sox brass has made some mistakes this year. Most of us know this.

 

No question. I only brought up the Drew signing there in connection with the payroll issue.

[Spudboy]

No question. I only brought up the Drew signing there in connection with the payroll issue.

 

I know. I'm not trying to call you out or to prove you are wrong and that I am right. To much of that crap goes on around here.