Red Sox (Early) vs Twins (Woods Richardson): 4/15/26, 1:40pm

[drewski6]

26 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Kershaw had one of the greatest pitches of all time in his repertoire. Early just has a lot decent pitches. They are both tall, white lefties. Hard to really compare the two otherwise. Eary's stuff moves in and out. Kershaw's was really up and down. 

For my money, Kershaw is the best pitcher since RJ.

[notin]

16 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It is one stat that seems to jive closely to runs scored- better than BA, SLG, HRs, ISO...

But not Runs Scored!

[notin]

31 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

For my money, Kershaw is the best pitcher since RJ.

Fair.  Kershaw would have been better, but his 30s were just not as dominant as his 20s.

But is Kershaw the best pitcher to spend his entire career with one team since Bob Gibson?  Or do we go back to Koufax? Feller? Or all the way back to Walter Johnson? (There are fewer candidates than you think.)

I stop at Gibson.  Opinions? Did I miss a more recent choice?

[drewski6]

3 minutes ago, notin said:

But not Runs Scored!

I find that at a team level, runs scored is very correlated to RBI's. Hmmmm HAHA

I was trying to think of the ways of ways to score a run without an RBI with a budy recently. I know that if bases loaded no outs, and you hit into a double play with a run scored = no RBI

I feel quite confident that if you are at bat and there is a wild pitch or passed ball resulting in a runner scoring = no rbi.

I feel you would get it drawing a walk or even getting plunked with bases loaded.  I feel like it can get a bit murky with errors and it would depend on the error.  So if I hit a single with a slow runner on second, but there is an error on the play.  Lets say I was going to be safe at first anyways (so its a hit) but the throw to first sails into the dugout (the error allows me to advance to second) and the runner scores and he probably still would have scored without the ball sailing into the dugout but its impossible to know for sure.......I assume it would give the hitter the benefit of the doubt RBI because its a hit.  Maybe not though if the scoring runner was full stopped at third and then the throw to first sails into the dugout and the full stopped runner on third is granted home cuz ball out of play, maybe no RBI in that case?  So maybe it becomes a judgement call in this rare example.

[notin]

8 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

I find that at a team level, runs scored is very correlated to RBI's. Hmmmm HAHA

I was trying to think of the ways of ways to score a run without an RBI with a budy recently. I know that if bases loaded no outs, and you hit into a double play with a run scored = no RBI

I feel quite confident that if you are at bat and there is a wild pitch or passed ball resulting in a runner scoring = no rbi.

I feel you would get it drawing a walk or even getting plunked with bases loaded.  I feel like it can get a bit murky with errors and it would depend on the error.  So if I hit a single with a slow runner on second, but there is an error on the play.  Lets say I was going to be safe at first anyways (so its a hit) but the throw to first sails into the dugout (the error allows me to advance to second) and the runner scores and he probably still would have scored without the ball sailing into the dugout but its impossible to know for sure.......I assume it would give the hitter the benefit of the doubt RBI because it’s a hit.  Maybe not though if the scoring runner was full stopped at third and then the throw to first sails into the dugout and the full stopped runner on third is granted home cuz ball out of play, maybe no RBI in that case?  So maybe it becomes a judgement call in this rare example.

Errors usually erase RBI.  Walks and HBP award RBI if a runner is forced in from third.

Balks are another way to score with no RBI...

[drewski6]

7 minutes ago, notin said:

Fair.  Kershaw would have been better, but his 30s were just not as dominant as his 20s.

But is Kershaw the best pitcher to spend his entire career with one team since Bob Gibson?  Or do we go back to Koufax? Feller? Or all the way back to Walter Johnson? (There are fewer candidates than you think.)

I stop at Gibson.  Opinions? I miss a more recent choice?

I would give Walter Johnson a "too far back, disqualified" just because I just dont have the apatite to try to force a comparison between two pitchers from such different eras spread so far apart. 

And I would take Kershaw firmly over the rest.

Gibson has a career 127 ERA+ and 3 top 5 cy young finishes and Kershaw has a career 154 ERA+ and like 7 top 5 cy young finishes.

I would take Gibson firmly over Bob because even though I love my some heater from Van Meter, he was famous for being awesome yet incredibly wild and he was.  I think he led the league in strikeouts and walks and HBP like 8 years in a row.

I lean Gibson over Koufax but thats a lot because Koufax retired at 30 years old after 2 cy youngs in a row.  Not sure why exactly (injury or jsut going out on top)

[Old Red]

3 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

I would give Walter Johnson a "too far back, disqualified" just because I just dont have the apatite to try to force a comparison between two pitchers from such different eras spread so far apart. 

And I would take Kershaw firmly over the rest.

Gibson has a career 127 ERA+ and 3 top 5 cy young finishes and Kershaw has a career 154 ERA+ and like 7 top 5 cy young finishes.

I would take Gibson firmly over Bob because even though I love my some heater from Van Meter, he was famous for being awesome yet incredibly wild and he was.  I think he led the league in strikeouts and walks and HBP like 8 years in a row.

I lean Gibson over Koufax but thats a lot because Koufax retired at 30 years old after 2 cy youngs in a row.  Not sure why exactly (injury or jsut going out on top)

Koufax had some form of acute arthritis in his elbow.

[mvp 78]

3 minutes ago, Old Red said:

Koufax had some form of acute arthritis in his elbow.

Didn't prevent him from picking up the phone to call Bernie Madoff. 

[mvp 78]

57 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

I think this closes the book on the great OBP vs SLG debate.  Our OBP perspective, we are like 16....From a slg perspective we are 26th.....From an overall runs scoring perspective.....hey look, smack dab in the middle.

Maybe there is something to this OPS thing.

It's April 16th and the team is a middling OBP team. It doesn't close the book on anything. 

[drewski6]

22 minutes ago, notin said:

Fair.  Kershaw would have been better, but his 30s were just not as dominant as his 20s.

But is Kershaw the best pitcher to spend his entire career with one team since Bob Gibson?  Or do we go back to Koufax? Feller? Or all the way back to Walter Johnson? (There are fewer candidates than you think.)

I stop at Gibson.  Opinions? I miss a more recent choice?

I think the only pitcher who I would comfortably say was clearly better than Kershaw is Maddux. I think that you can make very storng arguments for RJ, Pedro, Steve Carlton and Seaver.  Maybe 1-2 others.  I would rank Kershaw like top 10 all time, but back half. I think Kershaw was better than Nolan Ryan, Verlander, Doc Halladay, Glavine

[drewski6]

3 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

It's April 16th and the team is a middling OBP team. It doesn't close the book on anything. 

Yes, the tone of that post was not 100% serious.

[Old Red]

11 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Didn't prevent him from picking up the phone to call Bernie Madoff. 

Used his good right arm.🤫

[mvp 78]

6 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

I think the only pitcher who I would comfortably say was clearly better than Kershaw is Maddux. I think that you can make very storng arguments for RJ, Pedro, Steve Carlton and Seaver.  Maybe 1-2 others.  I would rank Kershaw like top 10 all time, but back half. I think Kershaw was better than Nolan Ryan, Verlander, Doc Halladay, Glavine

Verlander and Kershaw are pretty close to me. I'd have both of them behind Pedro, Clemens, Big Unit and Maddux. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

When Early first came up and limited damage with control and a repertoire (that didn't include a 100 mph fastball), I thought of Tom Glavine. But when I heard OB say that same on NESN, I reneged.

Glavine actually made the majors when he was 21 and didn't become a consistent star until he was 25. Early just turned 24, so it's ok to struggle in his first full season. As long as he's ready to be Cy Young when he's 25.

[drewski6]

1 minute ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

When Early first came up and limited damage with control and a repertoire (that didn't include a 100 mph fastball), I thought of Tom Glavine. But when I heard OB say that same on NESN, I reneged.

Glavine actually made the majors when he was 21 and didn't become a consistent star until he was 25. Early just turned 24, so it's ok to struggle in his first full season. As long as he's ready to be Cy Young when he's 25.

Glavine is a good comp. Some differences (Glavine was a 2-seam primary vs 4-seam for Early) but both very fluid, lefty, good secondaries, lack of 100 mph, control, poise.

Im not sure if Early can field like Glavine did but Im not sure they even teach pitchers to field these days.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, notin said:

But not Runs Scored!

It's amazing that when you look at the runs scored stat, it's always exactly the same as the team's runs scored.

[notin]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

Didn't prevent him from picking up the phone to call Bernie Madoff. 

He used his right arm…

[notin]

1 hour ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

When Early first came up and limited damage with control and a repertoire (that didn't include a 100 mph fastball), I thought of Tom Glavine. But when I heard OB say that same on NESN, I reneged.

Glavine actually made the majors when he was 21 and didn't become a consistent star until he was 25. Early just turned 24, so it's ok to struggle in his first full season. As long as he's ready to be Cy Young when he's 25.

Agree.  Comparing Early to a Hall of Famer before he has 50!career IP is a stretch.

At this point, my ceiling for a comp is Bruce Hurst…

[mvp 78]

24 minutes ago, notin said:

Agree.  Comparing Early to a Hall of Famer before he has 50!career IP is a stretch.

At this point, my ceiling for a comp is Bruce Hurst…

World Series MVP Bruce Hurst. 

 

[notin]

4 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

World Series MVP Bruce Hurst. 

 

Maybe Hurst in San Diego, where he was a little better…

[illinoisredsox]

40 minutes ago, notin said:

Agree.  Comparing Early to a Hall of Famer before he has 50!career IP is a stretch.

At this point, my ceiling for a comp is Bruce Hurst…

I’d settle for that, especially his age 28-34 years.

[notin]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

I think the only pitcher who I would comfortably say was clearly better than Kershaw is Maddux. I think that you can make very storng arguments for RJ, Pedro, Steve Carlton and Seaver.  Maybe 1-2 others.  I would rank Kershaw like top 10 all time, but back half. I think Kershaw was better than Nolan Ryan, Verlander, Doc Halladay, Glavine

I know I’m going to take some flak, but I think Nolan Ryan has to be among the most overrated pitchers in MLB history.  I’ve talked to plenty of folks who consider him the GOAT based on his strikeouts and career no hitters.  But they always forget he is also the all time leader in BB, and his career WAR is less than pitchers no one ever puts in the GOAT discussion, like Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry and Bett Blyleven, despite all of them pitching fewer seasons. 
 

Don’t get me wrong - Ryan is a more than deserving Hall of Famer.  But best of all time? I wouldn’t put him in the top ten.  Maybe top 20?

[mvp 78]

22 minutes ago, notin said:

Maybe Hurst in San Diego, where he was a little better…

Helps when you are pitching to Benito Santiago and have Robbie Alomar and Gary Templeton right behind you. 

[mvp 78]

23 minutes ago, notin said:

I know I’m going to take some flak, but I think Nolan Ryan has to be among the most ovaerrated pitchers in MLB history.  I’ve talked to plenty of folks who consider him the GOAT based on his strikeouts and career no hitters.  But they always forget he is also the all time leader in BB, and his career WAR is less than pitchers no one ever puts in the GOAT discussion, like Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry and Bett Blyleven, despite all of them pitching fewer seasons. 

Don’t get me wrong - Ryan is a more than deserving Hall of Famer.  But best of all time? I wouldn’t put him in the top ten.  Maybe top 20?

HOF Jaws has ranked 30th all time. He's 25th all time in bWAR. He's 69th all time in WAR7Adj.

Guys in the Nolan Ryan tier: Jenkins, Scherzer, Greinke, Schilling, Mussina, Roberts, Glavine, Kershaw, Marichal. Ryan was a good to great pitcher every year, but didn't have the peak that upper echelon HOFers had. 

[notin]

36 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

HOF Jaws has ranked 30th all time. He's 25th all time in bWAR. He's 69th all time in WAR7Adj.

Guys in the Nolan Ryan tier: Jenkins, Scherzer, Greinke, Schilling, Mussina, Roberts, Glavine, Kershaw, Marichal. Ryan was a good to great pitcher every year, but didn't have the peak that upper echelon HOFers had. 

Greinke strikes me as one of the more underrated pitchers of recent years….

[notin]

56 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Helps when you are pitching to Benito Santiago and have Robbie Alomar and Gary Templeton right behind you. 

And a ballpark with an outfield big enough to put another ballpark in…

[JoeBrady]

39 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

HOF Jaws has ranked 30th all time. He's 25th all time in bWAR. He's 69th all time in WAR7Adj.

Guys in the Nolan Ryan tier: Jenkins, Scherzer, Greinke, Schilling, Mussina, Roberts, Glavine, Kershaw, Marichal. Ryan was a good to great pitcher every year, but didn't have the peak that upper echelon HOFers had. 

Overrated.  .526 winning %, a 112 OPS+, and a 2.04 K/W.  A HOF pitcher in the mold of Kaat or Sutton.  Very good for a very long time.

[drewski6]

32 minutes ago, notin said:

Greinke strikes me as one of the more underrated pitchers of recent years….

Love Greinke.  Another guy who I feel gets underrated by the historians is Johan Santana. I understand his career was cut short by injury but man did he dominate in that window.  I dont even think hes in MLB HOF.

[mvp 78]

30 minutes ago, notin said:

Greinke strikes me as one of the more underrated pitchers of recent years….

Underrated such that he's about as good as Nolan Ryan, but people don't think that. Greinke just ended up retiring sooner. Better ERA+, WHIP, K/BB, bWAR/162. 

[mvp 78]

4 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Love Greinke.  Another guy who I feel gets underrated by the historians is Johan Santana. I understand his career was cut short by injury but man did he dominate in that window.  I dont even think hes in MLB HOF.

If a guy like Santana is getting in, then Brett Saberhagen has to get in.