Disappointed

[mvp 78]

Just now, Bellhorn04 said:

Casas has virtually zero value right now.

There is a greater than zero chance he never plays a MLB game again. I know some people want to disagree with me because their buddy down the street had that injury and is now playing pickleball at 50% or whatever.

[Nick]

Ken Rosenthal, The Athletic

“Epic fail. Comes off an epic fail at last year’s deadline with Craig Breslow and this was an epic fail as well. ... The Red Sox are one of many teams that uses modeling and tries to figure out what the best values are, and it’s all about efficiency and getting the best deal and this and that and the other thing. As some point, you’ve gotta fire.”

Glad I'm not the only one........I am not into violence at all. But I would like to throw a rock at a brick wall somewhere at Fenway, no property destruction, away from anything live....is that bad?

[Nick]

5 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

There is a greater than zero chance he never plays a MLB game again. I know some people want to disagree with me because their buddy down the street had that injury and is now playing pickleball at 50% or whatever.

I think he will play again, hopefully for Red Sox. Just not sure if he will be ready on opening day.

What happened to that guy that won't bet me $100?

 

[mvp 78]

You will NEVER get a value deal at the deadline unless you are the seller. 

[Bellhorn04]

24 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Not here to bitch. Like Thunder, I'm ok with adding two legitimate pitchers.

This pair may not be great, but at least they're not washed up old veterans like guys we're used to seeing being called deadline recruits. I've liked Matz since the 2015 World Series and always thought he'd be useful in Boston.

May was one of the starters who I clamored for in the Betts trade. Getting him for Tibbs at least makes the Devers trade better. May rounds out the rotation, which was a priority.

The overrated offense still lacks consistent thump, and I still don't believe a word the front office says. Ever.

They're 9th in homers, 5th in triples and 1st in doubles.  Based on what do they lack consistent thump?

[mvp 78]

6 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

They're 9th in homers, 5th in triples and 1st in doubles.  Based on what do they lack consistent thump?

Considering that Fenway park is the #1 rated doubles park, they better be near the top of that category every year. Triples: Duran (12, leads MLB), Rafaela/Romy (3). 

[moonslav59]

4 hours ago, Hitch said:

I'm more on your side of things in terms of our actual window. So then for me, the obvious choice was to buy and sell this window. Send away Chapman, Gio and Refsnyder at least, get the overpays and then reinvest those prospects and Devers money in the off season and have a core team ready to go for 5 years. In the meantime, give some of the prospects a chance the rest of the year.

The reasons this couldn't really happen however is because the atmosphere around the fan base is so toxic (which is fair enough) and relations with ownership is terrible.

Because of past mistakes, management now keep blundering into other (repeated) mistakes, rather than taking decisive action and setting the team up once and for all.

It was frustrating as hell seeing this play out entirely as some of us had predicted this past month. Sometimes the saying 'past performance is indicative of future results' really is all you need to sum it up. As is - "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

The atmosphere would have been Toxic, even with a half sell-off, like you suggested, but maybe had we also made one "buy" of a controlled pitcher like Ryan or Keller, the Nation would be no more angry than they are right now.

They'd also get over it, if we went for it this winter.

[moonslav59]

55 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

You will NEVER get a value deal at the deadline unless you are the seller. 

We coulda sold Abreu or Duran for a gross overpay, then flipped the prospects or combined some with out own to grossly overpay for Ryan & Jh Duran or Keller & Bednar.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

They're 9th in homers, 5th in triples and 1st in doubles.  Based on what do they lack consistent thump?

Home runs. That rating includes Devers --  their top longball threat the past half decade -- who they did not replace in the batting order. Yesterday, 6 PM EST.

[Maxbialystock]

2 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

You will NEVER get a value deal at the deadline unless you are the seller. 

To quote Sidney Poitier in Lilies of the Field, "Amen. Amen. Amen, Amen."  

[Maxbialystock]

1 hour ago, moonslav59 said:

We coulda sold Abreu or Duran for a gross overpay, then flipped the prospects or combined some with out own to grossly overpay for Ryan & Jh Duran or Keller & Bednar.

You sure are persistent, and of course you could well be right.  Maybe a 3-way trade would have worked.  

As for ESPN and other commentators, they have to say something outrageous because their readers expect it.  As I've already said, they kept saying the Devers trade was disaster for the Sox and a bonanza for the Giants--over and over and over again.

You are a far better informed critic than those guys.  

[moonslav59]

Just now, Maxbialystock said:

You sure are persistent, and of course you could well be right.  Maybe a 3-way trade would have worked.  

As for ESPN and other commentators, they have to say something outrageous because their readers expect it.  As I've already said, they kept saying the Devers trade was disaster for the Sox and a bonanza for the Giants--over and over and over again.

You are a far better informed critic than those guys.  

We keep posting the Devers numbers with SF, and by the way, did you see the nifty play he made on D at 1B the other night?

How about these numbers:

4.91 ERA/1.64 WHIP Hicks

0 IP w MLB Sox Harrison & J Bello

Tibbs traded away

0 players added with money "saved" by trading Devers.

The scorecard is vastly incomplete.

 

[Maxbialystock]

8 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Home runs. That rating includes Devers --  their top longball threat the past half decade -- who they did not replace in the batting order. Yesterday, 6 PM EST.

Meh.  I'm sure you're right about the numbers, and I also don't care.  The Sox have just been through a gauntlet of 16 games, 9 of which were on the road, and came out 10-6 and 59-51 overall.  

I rooted for Devers and always found excuses for his defense.  This season I thought he was perfect as the DH.

However, if you look at the Sox schedule, you will discover that the Sox were 26-26 the day before Bregman went on the IL.  2 weeks later, with Devers and without Bregman, they were 30-35.  Then the Sox came roaring back with a 6 game winning streak--to which Devers contributed almost nothing--that put them at 38-36.  Without Bregman and Devers, June 16 and after, the Sox should have collapsed.  But on July 13, right before the ASG, they were 53-45.   

So why oh why should the Sox have spent a zillion bucks to replace Devers?  That would have been stupid.  

[moonslav59]

1 minute ago, Maxbialystock said:

Meh.  I'm sure you're right about the numbers, and I also don't care.  The Sox have just been through a gauntlet of 16 games, 9 of which were on the road, and came out 10-6 and 59-51 overall.  

I rooted for Devers and always found excuses for his defense.  This season I thought he was perfect as the DH.

However, if you look at the Sox schedule, you will discover that the Sox were 26-26 the day before Bregman went on the IL.  2 weeks later, with Devers and without Bregman, they were 30-35.  Then the Sox came roaring back with a 6 game winning streak--to which Devers contributed almost nothing--that put them at 38-36.  Without Bregman and Devers, June 16 and after, the Sox should have collapsed.  But on July 13, right before the ASG, they were 53-45.   

So why oh why should the Sox have spent a zillion bucks to replace Devers?  That would have been stupid.  

Merrill Kelly did not cost zillions.

Ryan and Keller would have cost talent and some money, but no where close to zillions.

We could sign Schwarber or Azuna, this winter to DH for way less than the remaining Devers money, but we wont. We already have Yoshida-Romy and Casas to DH.

More likely we can split up the money toward some of this....

Sign a 1Bman, a SPer, a closer, rework Bregman's dea and or extend Anthony.

[Maxbialystock]

16 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

We keep posting the Devers numbers with SF, and by the way, did you see the nifty play he made on D at 1B the other night?

How about these numbers:

4.91 ERA/1.64 WHIP Hicks

0 IP w MLB Sox Harrison & J Bello

Tibbs traded away

0 players added with money "saved" by trading Devers.

The scorecard is vastly incomplete.

 

My scorecard says the Sox are much better without Devers and the Giants worse--and that's over a 6 week period.   And that's with the Sox playing a tougher schedule.  Those other names are just chicken feed.  

You said Devers would be fine at 1b, and I agreed with you.  But who the heck cares when job 1 is hitting?  In 37 games with the Giants Devers OPS is .692.  In 43 games, Anthony's OPS is .830 and rising--and he has DH'd  and played both LF and RF with positive DWAR's.  These ten (!!!!) Sox players have higher OPS's than Devers:  Bregman .922, Gonzalez .885, Ref .843, Anthony .830, Abreu .807, Duran .793, Rafaela .752, Narvaez .751, Toro .719, and Story .708.  

To be honest, I think Devers real problem is that he is in a crappy lineup.  

 

[moonslav59]

5 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

My scorecard says the Sox are much better without Devers and the Giants worse--and that's over a 6 week period.   And that's with the Sox playing a tougher schedule.  Those other names are just chicken feed.  

You said Devers would be fine at 1b, and I agreed with you.  But who the heck cares when job 1 is hitting?  In 37 games with the Giants Devers OPS is .692.  In 43 games, Anthony's OPS is .830 and rising--and he has DH'd  and played both LF and RF with positive DWAR's.  These ten (!!!!) Sox players have higher OPS's than Devers:  Bregman .922, Gonzalez .885, Ref .843, Anthony .830, Abreu .807, Duran .793, Rafaela .752, Narvaez .751, Toro .719, and Story .708.  

To be honest, I think Devers real problem is that he is in a crappy lineup.  

 

I'm fine with the trade, but we haven't won the trade, yet. SF has not lost the trade, yet.

When we spend the money, assuming we do, it has to be spent wisely for the trade to be a win. That's two big ifs for the trade to end up being more than even.

Now, there are also some ifs that are pluses, if one or two of the players we got back do well.

You keep pointing to Devers numbers after the trade and Toro's season numbers. You need to look at Toro's numbers since the trade. Devers would be better at 1B for the Sox than Toro, even now.

June 6th>>

.692 Devers 4 Hrs and 15 RBI

.479 Toro 0Hrs and 5 RBI and a negative DRS at 1B.

We have not won the trade, so far. Hicks has sucked. Toro has sucked. The others have yet to play for the Sox.

The trade scorecard is TBD, but let's not say we've won it, so far, okay?

[Hitch]

2 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

The atmosphere would have been Toxic, even with a half sell-off, like you suggested, but maybe had we also made one "buy" of a controlled pitcher like Ryan or Keller, the Nation would be no more angry than they are right now.

They'd also get over it, if we went for it this winter.

This is why I posted in response to a similar post from MVP a few days back - we needed someone with balls to say 'I know this is going to go down terribly and I do not care, because with the moves we make here, the time the youngsters will get for the rest of this season, and the off season changes I will enact, this team is going to be a monster for the next half a decade'. 

But we haven't had that since DD. 

[Hitch]

3 hours ago, Nick said:

Ken Rosenthal, The Athletic

“Epic fail. Comes off an epic fail at last year’s deadline with Craig Breslow and this was an epic fail as well. ... The Red Sox are one of many teams that uses modeling and tries to figure out what the best values are, and it’s all about efficiency and getting the best deal and this and that and the other thing. As some point, you’ve gotta fire.”

Glad I'm not the only one........I am not into violence at all. But I would like to throw a rock at a brick wall somewhere at Fenway, no property destruction, away from anything live....is that bad?

This feels fair. I don't mind admitting I laughed when the May news came through. I thought Bres' bluster would mean they would do something (and he's shown he's not afraid of making BIG moves), but by Christ this was a flop.

[mvp 78]

40 minutes ago, Hitch said:

This is why I posted in response to a similar post from MVP a few days back - we needed someone with balls to say 'I know this is going to go down terribly and I do not care, because with the moves we make here, the time the youngsters will get for the rest of this season, and the off season changes I will enact, this team is going to be a monster for the next half a decade'. 

But we haven't had that since DD. 

It has just been a lot of half measures since DD for the most part. 

The notable moves: 

Vaz trade prior to the deadline (Abreu/Valdez), but Sox backed off from selling other vets afterwards

Sale salary dump

Crochet trade 

Devers salary dump

[notin]

15 hours ago, Thunder said:

Yankees were willing to give up Spencer Jones for Bednar, so I’m assuming he was on the table for Keller as well. Not that it matters 

And Pitt turned it down?  Jones had been fairly up and down but he is hitting this year…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, Maxbialystock said:

Meh.  I'm sure you're right about the numbers, and I also don't care.  The Sox have just been through a gauntlet of 16 games, 9 of which were on the road, and came out 10-6 and 59-51 overall.  

I rooted for Devers and always found excuses for his defense.  This season I thought he was perfect as the DH.

However, if you look at the Sox schedule, you will discover that the Sox were 26-26 the day before Bregman went on the IL.  2 weeks later, with Devers and without Bregman, they were 30-35.  Then the Sox came roaring back with a 6 game winning streak--to which Devers contributed almost nothing--that put them at 38-36.  Without Bregman and Devers, June 16 and after, the Sox should have collapsed.  But on July 13, right before the ASG, they were 53-45.   

So why oh why should the Sox have spent a zillion bucks to replace Devers?  That would have been stupid.  

I didn't say they were better with Devers, but all of sudden other guys started blasting HRs. Remember, the Sox hit 15 in the 10-game winning streak -- and a lot of those dingers either won games or turned them around.  Then after the Break, the good teams that beat Boston hit more homers.

This is modern baseball: good pitching still beats good hitting, but since every staff is now populated with guys who throw 100 with some kind of killer offspeed stuff, there are less and less hits.

Look at the BA leaders -- there are only 6 guys hitting over .300 in the AL, and only 2 in the entire mighty National League. 

Less hits mean less baserunners and less scoring. I'm glad Duran is hot legging out doubles and triples, but there's a lot less chance to strand him if subsequent batters park one out of the yard.

[notin]

5 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

You will NEVER get a value deal at the deadline unless you are the seller. 

Or you're trading James Outman for Brock Stewart…

[moonslav59]

7 hours ago, Hitch said:

This is why I posted in response to a similar post from MVP a few days back - we needed someone with balls to say 'I know this is going to go down terribly and I do not care, because with the moves we make here, the time the youngsters will get for the rest of this season, and the off season changes I will enact, this team is going to be a monster for the next half a decade'. 

But we haven't had that since DD. 

They seem to think lying over and over again to their customers will never catch up to them. So far, it seems to have worked.

"Full throttle"

"Buyers"

Once again, we're back to thinking of 2026 and beyond based on a fuzzy hope, we will swing the pendulum far enough to the hear and now to be serious contender. The thing is, we don't have to spend over the tax line or empty the farm. A healthy balance can be maintained, while we win, now.

We just keep choosing to put it off another year, while we stockpile 18 OF'er & DH types. (Hyperbole alert.)