Red Sox (Giolito) vs Phillies (Luzardo): 7/23/25, 7:05pm

[drewski6]

1 hour ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Red Sox batters struck out 44 times in three games in Philly. 

That's more Ks than Dustin Pedroia in his rookie year, Nomar the year he won his first batting crown, and Fred Lynn in his last season in Boston.

Wade Boggs, who led the majors in plate appearances when he played for the Red Sox, struck out 44 times or less in seven years.

A lot of that is philosophical changes, coaching, and trends.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

27 minutes ago, dannycater said:

I watch the hitters and the pitchers...it's a brave new world...every pitcher can throw 98 to 103 it seems, some have changeups that Tommy Glavine would be proud...the hitters are timing and taught to drive the ball...the end result is a ton of Ks...Roman Anthony looks strangely like a throwback--he has a line drive swing and even though he is set up to be this power hitter I wonder if he thrives at MLB by being the line drive doubles, RBI guy--and here's a guy who struck out 4x twice in the series...contact hitters or the idea of contact hitters--the best ones never faced this type of pitching every day---including multiple different relievers who have same 100 mph repertoire...Gwynn, Boggs faced mostly same pitcher 3x at least, often 4 in a game--definitely all the pre-1970s hitters contact guys didn't have to deal with velocity as much or face more than 1 or 2 pitchers in a single game. You could face 4 different pitchers in some games in today MLB

Good post -- OB was quoting Ortiz last night, saying the reason he retired at the top of his game is that every bullpen throws 100 mph now with secondaries in the 90s. 

I'd actually like to hear Big Papi admit that himself...  not saying I don't believe an announcer, but then we just had Jim Rice last week say that the pitching was better when he and Lynn broke in, 50 years ago.

Of course, everything was better last century: giant walkie-talkie phones with antennas, computers the size of entire walls, sports team nicknames, etc.

[Bellhorn04]

8 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

A lot of that is philosophical changes, coaching, and trends.

I would submit that most of it is physical and scientific development of pitchers' arms to throw with much more velocity and spin.

[notin]

9 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Good post -- OB was quoting Ortiz last night, saying the reason he retired at the top of his game is that every bullpen throws 100 mph now with secondaries in the 90s. 

I'd actually like to hear Big Papi admit that himself...  not saying I don't believe an announcer, but then we just had Jim Rice last week say that the pitching was better when he and Lynn broke in, 50 years ago.

Of course, everything was better last century: giant walkie-talkie phones with antennas, computers the size of entire walls, sports team nicknames, etc.

Everything was better?  What about prices?

Back in 1975, you could take a family of 4 to Fenway, pay for parking, have everyone gorge themselves hot dogs and drinks and still have enough money left over to get their stomachs pumped.  And all for less money than a parking on the green line and buying a single ticket just to ride the train.  Today if you tried to do all that, it would cost the 1975 equivalent of 4 years tuition plus room and board at Harvard for students whose names do not end in a Roman numeral…

[notin]

5 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I would submit that most of it is physical and scientific development of pitchers' arms to throw with much more velocity and spin.

… which starts at a much younger age than it used to…

[drewski6]

17 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I would submit that most of it is physical and scientific development of pitchers' arms to throw with much more velocity and spin.

Im not sure I want to argue with "most" because then we are arguing over 55% x vs 45% y or 45% x vs 55% y

But I am very confident telling you that you are overlooking how much less hitters are taught to avoid the strikeout these days.  Its all about meeting the ball out in front. Pull, pull, pull.  Strikeouts are understood and forgiven. Comes with selling out for power.

And this is modern hitting coaching.

[dannycater]

56 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Good post -- OB was quoting Ortiz last night, saying the reason he retired at the top of his game is that every bullpen throws 100 mph now with secondaries in the 90s. 

I'd actually like to hear Big Papi admit that himself...  not saying I don't believe an announcer, but then we just had Jim Rice last week say that the pitching was better when he and Lynn broke in, 50 years ago.

Of course, everything was better last century: giant walkie-talkie phones with antennas, computers the size of entire walls, sports team nicknames, etc.

The Rice is wrong! The best starting pitchers were absolutely as good/better, but after that forget it. Relievers were not better then, and the backend starters were Al Nipper-esque...batting practice guys that hitters feasted on. I am from that era too. Yes, Big Papi did go out on top, just right before the specialized pitching reached new heights in velocity, spin. I think the best hitters, the best average/power guys simply are really great athletes too and certainly compare favorably or better than the best of all-time...

[Bellhorn04]

59 minutes ago, drewski6 said:

Im not sure I want to argue with "most" because then we are arguing over 55% x vs 45% y or 45% x vs 55% y

But I am very confident telling you that you are overlooking how much less hitters are taught to avoid the strikeout these days.  Its all about meeting the ball out in front. Pull, pull, pull.  Strikeouts are understood and forgiven. Comes with selling out for power.

And this is modern hitting coaching.

I get that, but I think this is the response to the advances in pitching.  And is it succeeding?

The bottom line is, run scoring has been trending down for a while now.  Pitching holds the upper hand.  

[FredLynn]

3 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

With the Sox, his ERA is 0.69. 

So everything else in his record doesn't count?

[mvp 78]

21 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

So everything else in his record doesn't count?

Why do I care how he pitched with Minnesota? 

His 14 appearances here have been good enough for me. He's going to regress, but he seems to be a capable middle reliever. He's very good a limiting hard contact. If he can keep that bb rate low, he'll be just fine. Bailey found a way to reduce Chapman's bb rate. Now Alcala's is half of what it was in MN. 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

2 hours ago, drewski6 said:

A lot of that is philosophical changes, coaching, and trends.

Agreed. Hand-eye coordination just isn't what it once was before shaky blue screens on laptops and iPads, and especially iPhones, with miniaturized viewing and texting while trying not to swerve off the road, step into traffic or walk off a cliff. 

[Maxbialystock]

12 hours ago, FredLynn said:

Sorry

No credit for getting down by five runs. I doubt they’ll win another game this year if they get down by that many runs. It’s a recipe for failure.

Of course being down by 5 is a recipe for losing.  All the more reason to celebrate the Sox comeback and then Narvaez 2 run dinger in the 11th.  

As I think dannycater pointed out, the Sox also played the Phillies tough in game 1, which the Sox win if Narvaez doesn't get that passed ball.  

The AL right now has 6 teams either in the wild card zone or within 2.5 games of it.  3 more teams are within 5 games of being a wild card.  That leaves just 3 teams--Orioles, A's, and White Sox--who aren't in the wild card hunt.  

And the Sox have the toughest schedule in MLB.  So, to be honest, your pessimism is not without justification.  I just prefer the other path.  

[mvp 78]

16 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

And the Sox have the toughest schedule in MLB.  So, to be honest, your pessimism is not without justification.  I just prefer the other path.  

After the last two series, the remaining schedule drops off considerably to like 12th toughest. Sox just have to stay afloat this week and then not fall apart down the stretch the way they have the previous 3 seasons. 

[mvp 78]

They kind of fell apart in '21 and needed to back into the WC, so I guess it's been 4 straight years of struggling down the stretch? 

[Maxbialystock]

17 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Why do I care how he pitched with Minnesota? 

His 14 appearances here have been good enough for me. He's going to regress, but he seems to be a capable middle reliever. He's very good a limiting hard contact. If he can keep that bb rate low, he'll be just fine. Bailey found a way to reduce Chapman's bb rate. Now Alcala's is half of what it was in MN. 

MLB pitchers go up and down like yo-yos.  Houck was great last year and abysmal this year. Sale was down for 4 straight seasons (5 if you count 2019), and then won the Cy Young.   Daniel Bard was the quintessential up and down reliever.  He pitched for the Sox for 5 seasons, dropped out of MLB for 6 seasons, and came back with the Rockies for 4 seasons, including 2022 when he had 34 saves, 6th most in MLB--and an ERA of 1.79.  

 

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, Maxbialystock said:

MLB pitchers go up and down like yo-yos.  Houck was great last year and abysmal this year. Sale was down for 4 straight seasons (5 if you count 2019), and then won the Cy Young.   Daniel Bard was the quintessential up and down reliever.  He pitched for the Sox for 5 seasons, dropped out of MLB for 6 seasons, and came back with the Rockies for 4 seasons, including 2022 when he had 34 saves, 6th most in MLB--and an ERA of 1.79.  

 

Sox only have control over him for 1.5 years. If they can sneak decent value out of him for about $2M at most, I don't see what the fuss is. I hope he pitches lights out and gets a big contract out of some other team. 

[Maxbialystock]

13 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

After the last two series, the remaining schedule drops off considerably to like 12th toughest. Sox just have to stay afloat this week and then not fall apart down the stretch the way they have the previous 3 seasons. 

You could be right about 12th toughest.  I think the 2025 Sox currently have good hitting, good defense, and--this is the shocker--good pitching.  They also are in a position to trade up o/a July 31.  

[Maxbialystock]

10 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

Sox only have control over him for 1.5 years. If they can sneak decent value out of him for about $2M at most, I don't see what the fuss is. I hope he pitches lights out and gets a big contract out of some other team. 

Agree.  

[Maxbialystock]

29 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

They kind of fell apart in '21 and needed to back into the WC, so I guess it's been 4 straight years of struggling down the stretch? 

They were 92-70 in 2021, so "wild card" is a tad misleading, especially when they killed the Yankees and their ace in the WC game and they beat the 100 win Rays, 3 games to 1, in the ALDS.  They even led the Astros, 2 games to 1, before Astros pitching shut them down for the final 3 games of the ALCS.  

That was the season when MLB instituted checking pitchers hands, etc, after every inning, which reportedly destroyed Matt Barnes best pitch, a terrific curve ball.  He saved 24 games, but in the 2d half turned into a pumpkin--an expensive pumpkin, come to think of it.  

 

[FredLynn]

1 hour ago, mvp 78 said:

Why do I care how he pitched with Minnesota? 

His 14 appearances here have been good enough for me. He's going to regress, but he seems to be a capable middle reliever. He's very good a limiting hard contact. If he can keep that bb rate low, he'll be just fine. Bailey found a way to reduce Chapman's bb rate. Now Alcala's is half of what it was in MN. 

Because its all part of his career performance. He might suddenly become useful-and I hope he does-but his performance in Minnesota certainly should engender some suspicion.

[Maxbialystock]

3 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

100% danny.  Pitching has advanced to an almost absurd level.  We've reached the point that a guy who throws in the low 90's is a soft tosser.

I suppose you're both right, but to me what makes the difference is the ability to mix fastballs with breaking stuff and to avoid throwing too many pitches right down the middle.   The dinger Chapman gave up last night was off a fastball right down the middle.  Last night Bernardino threw nothing but junk to get that final K.  His fastest pitch was 91 mph.  I thought Sanchez was great in game 2 because he mixed his pitches and had excellent command.  

To me the simple physics of a sharp curve vs a 98 mph fastball argues in favor of the curve. Especially devastating can be a pitcher who mixes in splitters (that don't go right down the middle).    Also, the ability to hit corners consistently really helps.  

In 2013 Uehara was incredibly successful with a fastball that picked at 89 mph, a nasty splitter, and excellent control.  

[FredLynn]

1 hour ago, Maxbialystock said:

Of course being down by 5 is a recipe for losing.  All the more reason to celebrate the Sox comeback and then Narvaez 2 run dinger in the 11th.  

As I think dannycater pointed out, the Sox also played the Phillies tough in game 1, which the Sox win if Narvaez doesn't get that passed ball.  

The AL right now has 6 teams either in the wild card zone or within 2.5 games of it.  3 more teams are within 5 games of being a wild card.  That leaves just 3 teams--Orioles, A's, and White Sox--who aren't in the wild card hunt.  

And the Sox have the toughest schedule in MLB.  So, to be honest, your pessimism is not without justification.  I just prefer the other path.  

They tend to get behind early a lot. Cora pointed that out in the post game interview yesterday. Catchup baseball is usually losing baseball. 

I just don't see the talent level on this team being conducive to a decent Oct run if they even make the playoffs. Some of the guys have been playing way over their heads-Toro, Gonzalez, Narvaez to name a few, and I don't trust any of our SPs besides Crochet and maybe Bello. The FO is going to have to pull off a miracle to get more talent on this team. Its just not available this year.

[mvp 78]

8 minutes ago, FredLynn said:

Because its all part of his career performance. He might suddenly become useful-and I hope he does-but his performance in Minnesota certainly should engender some suspicion.

Oh, CAREER performance. Well, then you should worry about his 4.32 ERA in MN, not his current 6+ ERA I guess! Obviously he's going to trend that line down by the end of the year, so we should be looking for some sweet positive regression! 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, Maxbialystock said:

You could be right about 12th toughest.  I think the 2025 Sox currently have good hitting, good defense, and--this is the shocker--good pitching.

But the dumbest baserunners! 

That's gotta be on Cora, because a good manager knows how to get behind his guys and give them an extra push -- even if he has to disguise himself as a pizza box delivery man to sneak past the umps to do it.

[Larry Cook]

7 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

With the Sox, his ERA is 0.69. 

The sox have alcala throwing a lot of curve balls since he came to us!!!  Seems to be the secret sauce to his success with us 

[Larry Cook]

2 hours ago, Maxbialystock said:

 

In 2013 Uehara was incredibly successful with a fastball that picked at 89 mph, a nasty splitter, and excellent control.  

Command and control seems to have been sacrificed for velocity in today’s game!!!

yet the best pitchers in today’s game have the ability to locate pitchers when they need to!!!

I think it is why hicks will always be a 6th inning pitcher 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

1 hour ago, Larry Cook said:

Command and control seems to have been sacrificed for velocity in today’s game!!!

yet the best pitchers in today’s game have the ability to locate pitchers when they need to!!!

I think it is why hicks will always be a 6th inning pitcher 

Hicks is one of those guys you're glad is on your team for two reasons: when he has control he could be good, and when he's wild, his teammates are safer than opposing batters who have to stand in there against him.

[Maxbialystock]

4 hours ago, FredLynn said:

They tend to get behind early a lot. Cora pointed that out in the post game interview yesterday. Catchup baseball is usually losing baseball. 

I just don't see the talent level on this team being conducive to a decent Oct run if they even make the playoffs. Some of the guys have been playing way over their heads-Toro, Gonzalez, Narvaez to name a few, and I don't trust any of our SPs besides Crochet and maybe Bello. The FO is going to have to pull off a miracle to get more talent on this team. Its just not available this year.

If you're saying a great October run isn't in the cards, I agree with you, pending any improvements between now and then.  I'll just be happy with the Sox getting to October.  

[FredLynn]

21 hours ago, mvp 78 said:

Oh, CAREER performance. Well, then you should worry about his 4.32 ERA in MN, not his current 6+ ERA I guess! Obviously he's going to trend that line down by the end of the year, so we should be looking for some sweet positive regression! 

All performance numbers should be taken into consideration. But the most recent numbers should be weighted more heavily and in Minn his ERA was over 6. As you know some guys do well for a while then slide. Remember Daniel Bard?

[tawest]

On 7/23/2025 at 6:19 PM, FredLynn said:

2-0

Game over

At least you're consistent.