Article: Rafael Devers May Actually Play First Base, Eventually

[notin]

14 minutes ago, Maxbialystock said:

I've got to say this one more time for emphasis.  Moving Devers has very little to do with replacing Casas, whose WAR at 1b this season was/is -0.8.  Almost anyone except Dalbec could do better.  

And it has everything to do with opening up the DH position for Yoshida, who is still on the IL and who is nowhere near the hitter Devers is.  

We don’t even know if Breslow likes Yoshida.  He might consider Masataka to be every bit the financial burden many fans do.  Not like he signed him…

[notin]

Trade Ceddane Rafaela (-2.4) and Nazzan Zanatello (2.2) for Andrew Vaughn (-4.5) and Jordan Leasure (4.7) Fills a bullpen role, the 1b role and opens LF for Roman Anthony.

The White Sox get a GG center fielder who can play anywhere else until July when the inevitable trade of Luis Robert takes place.  And really if they don’t like Zanatello, I’m open to a dozen other options…

 

 

[TedYazPapiMookie]

My question for the Red Sox organization is WHO takes responsibility for moving Devers to 1B when he goes down for the rest of season with a shoulder injury or any kind of injury related to him playing a position, he is NOT familar with?  Seriously, this single move could destroy any chance of making the playoffs but going outside to get a legitimate 1B wouldn't ruin the season if he gets hurt.  It just costs a little bit more money to get another 1B.  We have two outstanding hitters on the team in Duran and Devers.  This team can't lose either and still compete for the playoffs.  

My suggestion if this move gets made is that ONE person is held accountable when he gets hurt and is fired for taking such a huge risk for no reason.

 

[notin]

44 minutes ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

My question for the Red Sox organization is WHO takes responsibility for moving Devers to 1B when he goes down for the rest of season with a shoulder injury or any kind of injury related to him playing a position, he is NOT familar with?  Seriously, this single move could destroy any chance of making the playoffs but going outside to get a legitimate 1B wouldn't ruin the season if he gets hurt.  It just costs a little bit more money to get another 1B.  We have two outstanding hitters on the team in Duran and Devers.  This team can't lose either and still compete for the playoffs.  

My suggestion if this move gets made is that ONE person is held accountable when he gets hurt and is fired for taking such a huge risk for no reason.

 

They’ve been looking outside, but the only players who get moved this time of year are guys like Connor Joe.  Joe is the Dalbec Deluxe package.

Ive suggested Andrew Vaughn.  Pros: Available. Plenty of 1b experience.  Cons: sucks.

Internal options have the popular Story/Campbell to 1b to clear a path for Marcelo Mayer.  Those are common.  I’ve seen Yasmani Grandal as a suggestion at 1b.  
 

Why not Grandal at catcher - where he still has defensive skills, and Wong at 1b?  Wong is a former infielder and not much of a catcher (for framing at least. He can throw.)  And all the Sox lose is Toro…

[Hugh2]

Wong is 5’10” and his offensive ceiling is marginally acceptable at 1b

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

2 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

My question for the Red Sox organization is WHO takes responsibility for moving Devers to 1B when he goes down for the rest of season with a shoulder injury or any kind of injury related to him playing a position, he is NOT familar with? 

Gimme a break.

He could just as easily be injured running the bases or swinging the bat.

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

Report: Red Sox Veterans 'Not Happy' With Rafael Devers' Comments, Stance On Position

[notin]

34 minutes ago, Hugh2 said:

Wong is 5’10” and his offensive ceiling is marginally acceptable at 1b

So… Toro?

[Hugh2]

6 minutes ago, notin said:

So… Toro?

Are you asking me who might be the 1b tomorrow or who should be the 1b? Because those are two different questions.  It’s probably easier to answer who shouldn’t be a 1B.  I’d place Wong on that list.  
 

[TedYazPapiMookie]

When you check out the heights of the players on the roster or in AAA there are not many 6'3" or taller players.  You have Campbell at 6'3" and Grissom at 6'3" on the MLB roster and Mayer 6'3", Anthony 6'3", Grandal 6'2", Trayce Thomspon 6'2".  So of the six internal choices based on height, which one makes the most sense?  We have Campbell playing 2B and he is by far the best 2B on the team, we have Grissom who can't hit and is behind Campbell at 2B so his skills are not good enough at this point in time,  We have both Mayer and Anthony whose skills at hitting may be good enough but it should be easier for Mayer to adapt since clearly Story defensively is light years ahead of Mayer so for me bring up both from AAA and put Mayer at 1B and Anthony at RF and use Abreu as a pinch hitter/4th outfielder.  Problem solved until Mayer doesn't hit then you put Anthony there and bring back Abreu as right fielder.

That's the inexpensive solution.  The expensive solution is to trade Casas, Abreu and Yoshida to OAKLAND for Kurtz.  He replaces Casas as the 1B or the future, we pay half of Yoshida's remaining payroll and Abreu becomes a full-time outfielder in Oakland while Anthony because the full-time RF in Boston..

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

Top landing spots for disgruntled Red Sox star Rafael Devers

[notin]

1 hour ago, Hugh2 said:

Are you asking me who might be the 1b tomorrow or who should be the 1b? Because those are two different questions.  It’s probably easier to answer who shouldn’t be a 1B.  I’d place Wong on that list.  
 

I’d rank him over Toro.

The Sox don’t need a first base solution right now, but they could use a first base improvement…

[notin]

6 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Top landing spots for disgruntled Red Sox star Rafael Devers

Are the Red Sox on that list? Cause Devers isn’t getting traded…

[TheSplinteredSplendor]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

Cause Devers isn’t getting traded…

We'll see.

I wouldn't want that selfish diva on my team.

[jad]

3 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

My question for the Red Sox organization is WHO takes responsibility for moving Devers to 1B when he goes down for the rest of season with a shoulder injury or any kind of injury related to him playing a position, he is NOT familar with?  Seriously, this single move could destroy any chance of making the playoffs but going outside to get a legitimate 1B wouldn't ruin the season if he gets hurt.  It just costs a little bit more money to get another 1B.  We have two outstanding hitters on the team in Duran and Devers.  This team can't lose either and still compete for the playoffs.  

My suggestion if this move gets made is that ONE person is held accountable when he gets hurt and is fired for taking such a huge risk for no reason.

 

Agreed.  The logic of taking a guy who is not a good fielder,   then expecting him to play a position he's never played before-- that sort of logic completely escapes me.   If you must put RD in the field, then put him at 3rd, a position he knows how to play, and let Bregman play 1B.  What? Bregman doesn't want to do that?  Well then he's obviously a selfish diva and should be sent to Worcester.

[alsoason]

He needs to put the team before himself, old school says put him on the bench, going to be interesting from here in the desert to see the fans reaction at the next homestand.

[Nick]

54 minutes ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Top landing spots for disgruntled Red Sox star Rafael Devers

Cubs, Tigers and Mariners.....good read, thanks.

[Nick]

We really need to balance out the lefty/righty situation.

Refsnyder's back has been tight since May 1st and he again won't be available tonight against tough lefty.

Possible Starters (say Campbell to 1B)

Lefties, Devers, Casas, Abreu, Duran, Anthony, Mayer, Hamilton

Righties, Campbell, Story, Bregman, Rafaela, Wong, Gonzalez, Narvaez

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, alsoason said:

He needs to put the team before himself, old school says put him on the bench, going to be interesting from here in the desert to see the fans reaction at the next homestand.

Welcome to Talk Sox!

[illinoisredsox]

4 hours ago, TheSplinteredSplendor said:

Gimme a break.

He could just as easily be injured running the bases or swinging the bat.

Like Casas?

[moonslav59]

12 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

You said "Playing the worst defense at your position is not being a good teammate".  Much the same thing.  You did add an LOL at the end.

Unlike many, I think there is a lot of room between Good and Bad.

Saying someone is not being good does imply they are being bad or doing badly as a teammate at certain times, but does mean the person is a bad teammate.

People do bad things but are not bad people.

Also, when someone is the worst defensive, I would not say the guy is being a good teammate, at least in those moments of suckiness. And, they guy says something like, "I think I'm pretty good on D." Now, I will say: "LOL"

[TedYazPapiMookie]

Suggesting Devers is not at greater risk by playing 1B is simply wrong.  He's the worst in history at 3B, you can expect the same at 1B and the defense at 1B is far more challenging than 3B because it's not just fielding balls hit at you.  It's knowing how far to play from the base when speed is at bat versus slower runners, it's about knowing which way the throw is going to break from each infielder you work with, it's about footwork on errant throws and how to avoid collisions. It's about new movements with your legs that might create pulls you have never experienced. Sure, he could over swing like he often does and hurt himself and that's a real risk but why stack his lack of experience at a new position on top of that if he's considered critical to winning? 

When you suggest that moving to first doesn't drastically increase his risk of injury suggests you have not played the positions of 3B and 1B, especially as such an ineffective fielder at 3B as Devers has been over his eight seasons at 3B.  Most errors of all active 3B players should be enough to suggest 1B isn't the answer.

[jad]

Maybe if Raffy has a few more nights like last night we can hear less of the high-moral posturing demanding he "be taught a lesson."

[Hugh2]

17 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

My question for the Red Sox organization is WHO takes responsibility for moving Devers to 1B when he goes down for the rest of season with a shoulder injury or any kind of injury related to him playing a position, he is NOT familar with?  Seriously, this single move could destroy any chance of making the playoffs but going outside to get a legitimate 1B wouldn't ruin the season if he gets hurt.  It just costs a little bit more money to get another 1B.  We have two outstanding hitters on the team in Duran and Devers.  This team can't lose either and still compete for the playoffs.  

My suggestion if this move gets made is that ONE person is held accountable when he gets hurt and is fired for taking such a huge risk for no reason.

 

I’m sorry, I could not disagree with a take more than this.

why is Raffy a bad defender? Throws and range, he doesn’t need range at 1b, and he doesn’t have to worry about throwing it all the way over from 3B to 1b. He actually has good hands and a lot of the tools that would make him a good 1b.

moving players from 3B to 1b is actually one of the most common transitions in baseball, and teams to do it to preserve players and keep them on the field.

and picking someone to fire if he gets hurt? This is real life not a video game.  Raffy could get hurt tomorrow at DH, Casas got hurt running the bases.  Anyone can get hurt anywhere at anytime.  That’s just a horrible ideal.  To fire someone based on one arbitrary video game ideal

[notin]

21 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

When you check out the heights of the players on the roster or in AAA there are not many 6'3" or taller players.  You have Campbell at 6'3" and Grissom at 6'3" on the MLB roster and Mayer 6'3", Anthony 6'3", Grandal 6'2", Trayce Thomspon 6'2".  So of the six internal choices based on height, which one makes the most sense?  We have Campbell playing 2B and he is by far the best 2B on the team, we have Grissom who can't hit and is behind Campbell at 2B so his skills are not good enough at this point in time,  We have both Mayer and Anthony whose skills at hitting may be good enough but it should be easier for Mayer to adapt since clearly Story defensively is light years ahead of Mayer so for me bring up both from AAA and put Mayer at 1B and Anthony at RF and use Abreu as a pinch hitter/4th outfielder.  Problem solved until Mayer doesn't hit then you put Anthony there and bring back Abreu as right fielder.

That's the inexpensive solution.  The expensive solution is to trade Casas, Abreu and Yoshida to OAKLAND for Kurtz.  He replaces Casas as the 1B or the future, we pay half of Yoshida's remaining payroll and Abreu becomes a full-time outfielder in Oakland while Anthony because the full-time RF in Boston..

Sacramento/Vegas isnt trading their top hitting prospect for that package.  Yoshida is of no interest to them at any cost, as Brent Rooker holds the DH role. And Casas is of questionable value and durability.

Abreu straight up for Tyler Soderstrom makes more sense.  Kurtz has relegated Soderstrom to LF, where he is horribly miscast.  Abreu is a defensive star in the OF.  The Athletics OF of Butler-Bleday-Abreu looks pretty solid, with Kurtz at 1b and Rooker at DH.  
 

Boston could move former catcher Soderstrom to 1b and let Roman Anthony replace Abreu in RF.  Yoshida is still in limbo, but that’s of no concern to the Athletics…

[notin]

13 hours ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

Suggesting Devers is not at greater risk by playing 1B is simply wrong.  He's the worst in history at 3B, you can expect the same at 1B and the defense at 1B is far more challenging than 3B because it's not just fielding balls hit at you.  It's knowing how far to play from the base when speed is at bat versus slower runners, it's about knowing which way the throw is going to break from each infielder you work with, it's about footwork on errant throws and how to avoid collisions. It's about new movements with your legs that might create pulls you have never experienced. Sure, he could over swing like he often does and hurt himself and that's a real risk but why stack his lack of experience at a new position on top of that if he's considered critical to winning? 

When you suggest that moving to first doesn't drastically increase his risk of injury suggests you have not played the positions of 3B and 1B, especially as such an ineffective fielder at 3B as Devers has been over his eight seasons at 3B.  Most errors of all active 3B players should be enough to suggest 1B isn't the answer.

And yet plenty of passable 1b in MLB were bad third baseman.  Some, like Mark Teixeira, went from horrific 3b to elite defensive 1b.

That whole clip about Brad Pitt (as Billy Beane) telling Chris Pratt (as Scott Hatteberg) while Brent Jennings (as Ron Washington) rambles on about the difficulty.  Of course this scene ignores reality- Hatteberg did move to first and was part of the resurgent team that year that had one of the longest winning streaks in recent MLB history.

Can Devers learn first? Absolutely.  Will he? This year? TBD..

[TedYazPapiMookie]

I agree that there are players who can move from 3B to 1B very smoothly but we are talking about a guy who was given 14 years to develop into a league average 3B (clock started at the Dominican baseball academy when he was 14 years old and our scout suggested he was going to be the franchise player in Boston) but he's never made it to league average even with help from the score keepers.  

You can't fix his lack of baseball acumen because he has hero syndrome and wants to field any ball hit near him even if it's a routine ball to the SS.  Put that on the other side of the infield and you have a disaster.  Again, 14 years to fix this one issue and it never happened.

I think it's unfair to compare him to guys like Hatteberg because he was a grinder and wasn't handed a starting job without earning it before being moved to first base.  His baseball IQ was far higher and he WAS NOT critical to the success of the team before the move.  Devers is not capable of being a quality 1B based on the last 14 years and he is FAR TOO VALUABLE due to his hitting to increase risk of injury.  

[TedYazPapiMookie]

8 hours ago, Hugh2 said:

I’m sorry, I could not disagree with a take more than this.

why is Raffy a bad defender? Throws and range, he doesn’t need range at 1b, and he doesn’t have to worry about throwing it all the way over from 3B to 1b. He actually has good hands and a lot of the tools that would make him a good 1b.

moving players from 3B to 1b is actually one of the most common transitions in baseball, and teams to do it to preserve players and keep them on the field.

and picking someone to fire if he gets hurt? This is real life not a video game.  Raffy could get hurt tomorrow at DH, Casas got hurt running the bases.  Anyone can get hurt anywhere at anytime.  That’s just a horrible ideal.  To fire someone based on one arbitrary video game ideal

Consider what a 1B must be able to do routinely.

1 - Scoop (he was horrible at short hops at 3B)

2 - Read the throw and how it is breaking with each infielder having a different break in their path to first with the ball.  He never showed average hand eye coordination which is partly why he has the most errors in history for a Red Sox 3B.

3 - He has to play far off the base and run to it while keeping his eye on the play.  He fell over on a majority of balls hit to his right at 3B suggesting poor balance and footwork.  Can he improve his balance?  He didn't in 14 years at 3B.

4 - As you pointed out he makes many errant throws so forget about double plays.

5 - Horrendous on pop-ups and now the ball moves away from the stands in the opposite direction.

6 - Slow glove reaction time means he could struggle with the many pick-off moves by the pitchers.

7 - Errant throws up the line.  High risk for a critical hitter.  He's a big dude but an extended left arm being run into by a base runner will take him out of the line-up.

Now ask yourself why?  Why force a round peg in a square hole?  There is no NEED for him to put on a baseball glove considering how inadequate he is in using it so WHY?  Let him think of himself as a modern day Big Papi so his ego is satisfied and lets put a 1B and 1B.  Lets trade for a 1B with all our excess depth in the farm system.  Kurtz makes perfect sense and OAK can have Casas who is more proven than Kurtz and we can give them something else from the farm system to keep them happy.  Breslow can pick a guy who is rated higher than his skills and move him with Casas for Kurtz.

The whole point about firing someone has nothing to do with video games, it's a commentary on accountability.   If someone is going to rachet up the chance of risk for a top player on the team who happens to be carrying the offense right now, someone needs to be accountable for such a huge mistake when the easily predictable happens.  If Raffy gets hurt doing routine tasks that is baseball, if Raffy gets hurt because a GM decides to significantly raise his risk of injury for NO REASON, that's a firing worthy offense. 

[notin]

43 minutes ago, TedYazPapiMookie said:

Consider what a 1B must be able to do routinely.

1 - Scoop (he was horrible at short hops at 3B)

2 - Read the throw and how it is breaking with each infielder having a different break in their path to first with the ball.  He never showed average hand eye coordination which is partly why he has the most errors in history for a Red Sox 3B.

3 - He has to play far off the base and run to it while keeping his eye on the play.  He fell over on a majority of balls hit to his right at 3B suggesting poor balance and footwork.  Can he improve his balance?  He didn't in 14 years at 3B.

4 - As you pointed out he makes many errant throws so forget about double plays.

5 - Horrendous on pop-ups and now the ball moves away from the stands in the opposite direction.

6 - Slow glove reaction time means he could struggle with the many pick-off moves by the pitchers.

7 - Errant throws up the line.  High risk for a critical hitter.  He's a big dude but an extended left arm being run into by a base runner will take him out of the line-up.

Now ask yourself why?  Why force a round peg in a square hole?  There is no NEED for him to put on a baseball glove considering how inadequate he is in using it so WHY?  Let him think of himself as a modern day Big Papi so his ego is satisfied and lets put a 1B and 1B.  Lets trade for a 1B with all our excess depth in the farm system.  Kurtz makes perfect sense and OAK can have Casas who is more proven than Kurtz and we can give them something else from the farm system to keep them happy.  Breslow can pick a guy who is rated higher than his skills and move him with Casas for Kurtz.

The whole point about firing someone has nothing to do with video games, it's a commentary on accountability.   If someone is going to rachet up the chance of risk for a top player on the team who happens to be carrying the offense right now, someone needs to be accountable for such a huge mistake when the easily predictable happens.  If Raffy gets hurt doing routine tasks that is baseball, if Raffy gets hurt because a GM decides to significantly raise his risk of injury for NO REASON, that's a firing worthy offense. 

The Athletics aren’t trading Kurtz.  BTV suggests his value is equal to Marcelo Mayer, but the Athletics are unlikely to make that move given the performance of Jacob “Jack Jr.” Wilson so far.  
 

That leaves Anthony.  Willing to deal Anthony for Kurtz?

[TedYazPapiMookie]

Seems like you are fairly negative about Casas' value.  He has a career .800 OPS and 2.0 War in just 251 games and less than 1000 plate appearances.  Don't forget that Casas was a first round pick in 2018.  He made it to the majors from HS in four years while playing in a Major Market.  Kurtz progressed rapidly mostly because he's in Oakland.  Oakland likes bargains and giving them a guy like Casas and maybe someone like Abreu would be enough plus Anthony could replace Abreu so both teams win in the deal.  A 2 for 1 with both players from Boston being well above average and pre-arb makes sense.  Casas has been the 1B of the future since he was drafted so an injury doesn't mean he still isn't the future in Boston unless he is traded away.  Also, while Mayer was drafted 4th as well, he's more injury prone than Casas AND he's never performed as well as Casas in the minors.  Mayer has yet to live up to his ratings. 

You are right they don't need a SS because theirs is light years better than Mayer but they could use their depth at 1B to allow Casas to replace Kurtz long term and then they would add a lefty bat in Abreu who is a GG corner outfielder.  I think Kurtz could be had for those two.  It fits their financial situation better because they are swapping two pre-arb players for one pre-arb AND they have a couple of starting outfielders who are late in their arbitration years.   FYI... Soderstrom is also a pre-arb guy with more experience than Kurtz so I would think he is less likely to be traded thanks to his bat being more proven.

I can't speak for Oakland but their depth does match nicely with our needs so maybe something can be done to make both teams happy.