Taking the Cheap Way Hardly Ever Works

[moonslav59]

The deconstruction of the record-setting 2018 World Champion roster has been well documented and discussed for years. I'm going to focus on just Sox management's choices on adding pitchers to the team. Many were vain attempts at replacing some very productive pitchers, although some of which had already begun to drop off, such as Kimbrel, Kelly, Porcello, Price and ERod.

I won't get into the lack of high draft choices and top bonuses for pitchers, but that did not help the situation. Some trades, like the ones for Pivetta, Wink and hopefuls like Slaten, Fitts and Priester worked out fine or may work out that way, but others did not work out well (most deadline moves) or were okay (Ottavino.)

My focus will be on Free Agent additions starting after the Sale and Nate extensions/re-signing, both of which involved SP'ers with serious injury concerns and could be viewed as the start of the team's philosophy of spending less than top market prices, due to dependability concerns. Although many felt Sale was an overpay, to me, he clearly took less than market value had he been viewed as 100% healthy. Nate's contract was also less than his true worth, due to his injury history, but these points are debatable, and have been discussed often.

After 2018, we did not bring back Kimbrel, Pomeranz and Kelly, Pom was 6th in GS and Kimbrel and Kelly were our two best RP'ers, although a bit shaky at the end of the 2018 regular season. (Kimbrel was shaky through the playoffs, too.) We added zero pitching that winter, and put all our eggs in just bringing back Sale & Nate. (I won't go into everyday paydays like Bogey's extension.) To me, this was the beginning of the end- clear and simple. When the vaunted rotation of Sale, Price, Nate, ERod and Porcello imploded, it was not a pretty sight to see.

What did we do to improve the pitching staff situation for 2020 and onwards, even after knowing ERod & Sale were going to be out for all of 2020? Next to nothing.

2020 additions: Martin Perez at $6M w option and $500K buyout and Collin McHugh to a min wage contract. Perez was never viewed as quality. He had a career 95 ERA+ , when we signed him, including an 84 ERA+ in his previous 2 years. This was essentially a throw away deal with no past history of doing very well and no hopes for significant improvement, although he did have a 1.5 years nice stretch, the second we dumped him. Perez was the replacement for both Price & Porcello. That pretty much says it all. McHugh fit the profile of a pitcher who had some past glory, but with major injury history. He missed all of 2020 with COVID. (He never pitched more than 70 IP, afterwards.) 

2021 was the beginning of a template we have used for 4 winters in a row, counting this one. That winter, we  took on Ottavino's contract after  a 5.89 year with the Yankees in just 18 IP. It was a stab in the dark in hopes that a 35 year old pitcher could regain the glory he had over 2 good seasons he had in 2018 and 2019 and one way before in 2013. He was a trend-setter. We brought back Perez, after a ho-hum 2019 season at less money ($4.5M + the $500K buybuyout of the second year option.)out we used the following winter, after he did poorly.) We also began the one year trend by signing Garrett Richards to $10M/1 (actually $8.5M with the $1.5M. He was essentially Price's replacement, skipping a year. Pererz remained Porcello's replacement.

2022 seemed like they made a significant attempt at filling the holes left in the pitching staff since 2019, but again, we saw the same types of "cheap" choices, instead of going for tried and true quality pitchers. We had some success in 2021 and knew we were losing ERod (the 3rd starter lost from the 2018-2019 rotation.) We signed oft-injured Wacha, Hill and Paxton, along with a head-scratching Diekman & Sawamura signings for the pen. (The Strahm signing worked well.) All toal, we spent $36M on mostly 1 year deals. Paxton was known to be out for most of 2022 and was mostly a 2023 signing with hopes that he could be plugged into the late 2022 rotation at a $10M cost. He could easily be the poster boy of our 4-5 year philosophy of going cheap on flawed pitchers with histories of plus pitching. Paxton was several years removed from his decent years from 2014-2019, but even in that stretch, he missed a lot of starts. Paxton missed all of year one, and did okay year two before, you guessed it, going on the IL, when we needed him most. Wacha ($7M/1) actually worked out better than we should have expected. His "glory years" were way back in 20214-2015. His 6 prior seasons were pretty awful: 89 ERA+ while averaging about 20 starts per season. Hill was a 42 y/o going on 83 y/o pitcher, when we signed him. I don't think I need to go over his long history of injuries among spotted times of glory. Like Wacha, he did better than we should have expected. We were lucky to be able to dump Diekman's $8M/2 contract for McGuire, at the deadline. Sawamura's $3M/2 deal ended before the 2 years were up. Strahm at $3M/1 was maybe the best pitcher (or pitching deal)  signed by Bloom.

2023 was a joke, in terms of fixing the rotation and replacing Wacha and Hill. Kluber $10M/1 was it. The Paxton return was the other great, "cheap"  hope. Although Kluber had looked okay, the season before, his ERA+ was just 84 in 2022. He was 5 years removed from his real glory years, which were very significant and 5 years long. No doubt, the guy was once great, but there was no indication he'd regain that glory at age 37. It was a total punt based on faint hopes of past greatness. We did make some very serious moves to improve the pen with Jansen ($32M/2) and Martin ($18M/2..) Both worked out well for us, but even looking closely at these two signings, we can see the same philosophy at work: avoid signing the best of the best, who still had some prime years left for aging pitchers, in hopes they can eek out a couple more years of greatness or good enoughnness.  Jansen was 35 and 36. Martin was 37 and 38. Both were "cheaper," because they were older and were expected to decline. Lucky for us, they mostly did not. Diaz was signed for $102M/5 in 2023 and Hader was signed for $95M/5, last winter. I'm not saying we should have gone there, but the fact is, we purposely went cheaper to avoid spending on more dependable pitchers.

2024 broke the mold. The Giolito signing was based almost entirely on dependability, but he was still a "cheap" signing based on a piss-poor second half of his previous season and no real great history. The Hendriks signing mirrored the Paxton one, and we still have 2025 to look at, to judge how good that one was, but he never gave us 1 IP in year 1, despite an extectation of a late season arrival. Chase Anderson and Criswell were not really noteworthy signings, except that Criswell worked out well.

2025: $21M on Buehler, three years removed from his greatest season and 5 years removed from his only other 138+ IP season of excellent pitching. Another "cheaper" and shorter contract based on past glory.  Sandoval's $18M/2 deal is also from the Paxton-Hendriks mold- more about year 2 with hopes of a year 1 appearance. Sandoval has never pitched more than 150 IP and is 3 years removed from his nice 2022 season of 138 ERA+ pitching in 149 IP. In 44 GS, over the last 2 years, his ERA+ in 98. Yet another cheaper signing based on hopes of years ago decent pitching. Chapman at $11M/1 is another stab in the dark, although he has had some recent success and relatively, little injury history. His reason for being "cheap," like Jansen and Martin beforehand, is his age. He turns 37 before opening day. He's already shown he is not the pitcher he once was.

2021-2024: 1.326 WHIP and 2.4 K/BB (14.4/6.0)

2012-2020: 0.990 WHIP and 4.0 K/BB (15.2/3.8)

I'm counting Wilson as a step above a minor league signing- one also based on long-ago success.

This trend is as clear as day. Nothing changed, this winter, except the dollar amounts are higher and these guys are not 5 years removed from greatness or success, but rather 2-3 years away. Buehler and Sandoval are much younger than other stabs, but Chapman and Wilson are not.

There is certainly a lot of upside potential in these guys, but what remains is also a lot of doubt about their health (SP'ers) and or age (RP'ers,) and the common denominator over the last 5 years is going CHEAP!.

[notin]

The counter argument is how good is it going expensive?  Especially on starting pitching?

Price and Sale cost the Sox about $305, if you only look at Sale’s extension and remove COVID money plus money paid by LA and Atlanta.  And for that $305mill, the Sox received a grand total of 12.3 bWAR.  For 8 seasons of pitching, they got roughly twice what Sale gave Atlanta last year.

Nate Eovaldi signed a 4 year $68mill contract, which became a 3.4 year $57mill deal.  Eovaldi gave Boston 7 bWAR in 3.4 seasons, making him, by averaging just over 2 bWAR per year, the best starting pitcher free agent in team history 

The Sox dont have many long term free agent pitcher contracts in their history.  Since Duquette extended Pedro, they’re sparse.  After Price and Sale, the only other one that leaps to mind is John Lackey.  Now as Lackey had a great postseason in 2013, he’s remembered as a success, and not as a pitcher who was mediocre his first year, horrible in his second, and didn’t even pitch in his third.  Lackey was worth a total of 3.9 bWAR for his 4 and a half seasons in Boston, all for the (definitely not at the time) low, low price of roughly $80million

(And Lackey was also the subject of an urban legend regarding threatening to retire instead of playing his contractually obligated minimum wage year; he did earn minimum wage in St. Louis in 2015.)

Not so sure spending heavy on Fried/Burnes/whoever does anything more than keeping fans from calling the FO cheap…

 

 

[moonslav59]

2 hours ago, notin said:

The counter argument is how good is it going expensive?  Especially on starting pitching?

Price and Sale cost the Sox about $305, if you only look at Sale’s extension and remove COVID money plus money paid by LA and Atlanta.  And for that $305mill, the Sox received a grand total of 12.3 bWAR.  For 8 seasons of pitching, they got roughly twice what Sale gave Atlanta last year.

Nate Eovaldi signed a 4 year $68mill contract, which became a 3.4 year $57mill deal.  Eovaldi gave Boston 7 bWAR in 3.4 seasons, making him, by averaging just over 2 bWAR per year, the best starting pitcher free agent in team history 

The Sox dont have many long term free agent pitcher contracts in their history.  Since Duquette extended Pedro, they’re sparse.  After Price and Sale, the only other one that leaps to mind is John Lackey.  Now as Lackey had a great postseason in 2013, he’s remembered as a success, and not as a pitcher who was mediocre his first year, horrible in his second, and didn’t even pitch in his third.  Lackey was worth a total of 3.9 bWAR for his 4 and a half seasons in Boston, all for the (definitely not at the time) low, low price of roughly $80million

(And Lackey was also the subject of an urban legend regarding threatening to retire instead of playing his contractually obligated minimum wage year; he did earn minimum wage in St. Louis in 2015.)

Not so sure spending heavy on Fried/Burnes/whoever does anything more than keeping fans from calling the FO cheap…

 

The other end of the spectrum has also proven to be very risky and nonproductive. I agree.

There is a middle ground, and the Giolito signing was perhaps our one example of trying that route, and it blew up in our face. Relying on injured pitchers has continuously blown up in our faces, too, and when we finally tried to end one such deal, that one blew up, too (Sale trade.)

Last year was not the norm, but so many mid level signings worked our very well. Gio was not one of them.

$75M/3 Sonny Gray (top end of mid level signing along with Snell at $62M/2)

$53M/4 Imanaga (looks like a steal)

$45M/3 Lugo (maybe the steal of the winter)

$39M/2 Gio (bust) and Stroman (meh)

$32M/2 Wacha (nice)

$28M/2 Manaea (nice)

Lower mid levels: Monty 25/1+, Maeda 24/2, Mahle 22/2, Montas 16/1, Fedde 15/2, Flaherty 14/1 and Severino 13/1 were mostly ok to good. (Gibson 13/1)

How about 2023? (Hmmmm)

$75M/5 Senga (upper end)

$72M/5 T Walker and $68M/4 Tailon 

$63M/3 Bassitt, $40M/3 Eflin and #39M/3 T Anderson

$34M/2 Nate and $26M/2 Quintana

$25M/2 Manaea and Heaney

 

2022? (Not good)

$77.5 ERod, 71.3 Stroman, 56/4 J Gray, 50/2 Verlander, 44/4 Matz, 44/2 Rodon & 36/3 Kikuchi 

As much as none of these roads look wildly successful, I guess I'm just sick of sticking to one for failure after failure.

 

 

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Don't forget Fulmer, another guy yet to throw a pitch in Boston, and now the latest TJ rehab reclamation rebin-again redsox retread: Jovani Moran (who Brez and Bailey can only hope to someday refer to as a Bugs Bunny Ultra-Moran).

Last year's World Series teams were two clubs who constantly spend at the top of the industry in stockpiling pitching. Look at some of the other playoff teams and how they mainly built pitching staffs:

San Diego -- trade lots of prospects; Mets and Phils -- spend-spend-spend; Atlanta, Milwaukee, Detroit, Cleveland -- draft and develop; Houston -- smart scouting and international recruitment... KC -- hit the lotto on the mid-level signings (Mets did, too, after pivoting from big splurges on old Hall of Famers). 

Breslow and Bailey know the best way is scout and recruit/draft and develop. They just have to change the culture in a front office mired in the 2020s that keeps trying to get by with with low-level signings who are cheap because they're damaged goods.

Results are in the standings (for a FO that even blew it with the one guy who finally succeeded -- Paxton, who should've been traded at the deadline, right after he was Pitcher of the Month).

 

[Bellhorn04]

20 hours ago, notin said:

After Price and Sale, the only other one that leaps to mind is John Lackey.  Now as Lackey had a great postseason in 2013, he’s remembered as a success, and not as a pitcher who was mediocre his first year, horrible in his second, and didn’t even pitch in his third.  Lackey was worth a total of 3.9 bWAR for his 4 and a half seasons in Boston, all for the (definitely not at the time) low, low price of roughly $80million

(And Lackey was also the subject of an urban legend regarding threatening to retire instead of playing his contractually obligated minimum wage year; he did earn minimum wage in St. Louis in 2015.)

Not really fair to Lackey or the contract.  His fWAR was much higher.  He had a total fWAR of 12.7 for the years 2010-2015 (9.3 bWAR) - 1.3 of those years with St. Louis.  Total dollar value per FanGraphs 92.1 million.  Total salary 83 million.  2015 was the minimum wage year triggered by his injury, so it's only fair to count it as part of the contract he signed with Boston.

The differences between bWAR and fWAR for pitchers can be so big that they can make analysis like this pretty inconclusive, of course.  

[Bellhorn04]

Personally I would never want to undo a deal that resulted in a ring, so I have no problem with Price or Lackey.

Or Foulke for that matter, who was not much use in the second and third years of his contract with us.

 

[Bellhorn04]

As for 2025, the Buehler signing has re-triggered my optimism about the team's direction.  This was a non-punt move, and to me it validates that Sandoval was also a non-punt move.  And I think some more moves are coming.  

  

[win red sox]

www.espn.com/mlb/insider/story/_/id/42115076/2024-25-mlb-offseason-grades-free-agency-trade-analysis

"The Dodgers had originally hoped for a return at the end of 2023 that never materialized, and he didn't make his 2024 debut until May. While his four-seamer averaged 95.0 mph, not far off from the 95.3 average in 2021, Buehler got hit hard. His spin rate was down on all his pitches, his swing-and-miss rate way down and that four-seamer in particular got walloped -- batters hit .342 and slugged .696 against it.

That's why I remain a little skeptical about Buehler bouncing back to something resembling his pre-surgery form. One-year contracts hold no risk, but 13 good innings in October aren't enough by themselves to predict the future. Even in the start against the Mets on a cold and windy night at Citi Field, Buehler gave a lot of credit to the weather helping create some additional movement on his pitches. His start against the Yankees was a little more legitimate, although even then he induced just nine swings-and-misses in 76 pitches.

The hope, of course, is that Buehler will regain some stuff as he gets more distance away from the surgery. Since the Dodgers didn't make a qualifying offer, the Red Sox also don't lose any draft pick compensation (as will be the case with Nick Pivetta, who turned down a qualifying offer from the Red Sox). Buehler essentially replaces Pivetta in the rotation, a group that now includes Garrett Crochet, Tanner Houck, Brayan Bello, Kutter Crawford, Cooper Criswell, Richard Fitts and Quinn Priester, plus Lucas Giolito and Patrick Sandoval returning from injuries. The Red Sox already ranked fifth in FanGraphs' projected WAR among starters. While Buehler's poor 2024 probably doesn't help those projected numbers, the 2021 version of Buehler -- or something close to it -- could make this the best (and deepest) rotation in the majors. -- Schoenfield"

[notin]

18 hours ago, moonslav59 said:

The other end of the spectrum has also proven to be very risky and nonproductive. I agree.

There is a middle ground, and the Giolito signing was perhaps our one example of trying that route, and it blew up in our face. Relying on injured pitchers has continuously blown up in our faces, too, and when we finally tried to end one such deal, that one blew up, too (Sale trade.)

Last year was not the norm, but so many mid level signings worked our very well. Gio was not one of them.

$75M/3 Sonny Gray (top end of mid level signing along with Snell at $62M/2)

$53M/4 Imanaga (looks like a steal)

$45M/3 Lugo (maybe the steal of the winter)

$39M/2 Gio (bust) and Stroman (meh)

$32M/2 Wacha (nice)

$28M/2 Manaea (nice)

Lower mid levels: Monty 25/1+, Maeda 24/2, Mahle 22/2, Montas 16/1, Fedde 15/2, Flaherty 14/1 and Severino 13/1 were mostly ok to good. (Gibson 13/1)

How about 2023? (Hmmmm)

$75M/5 Senga (upper end)

$72M/5 T Walker and $68M/4 Tailon 

$63M/3 Bassitt, $40M/3 Eflin and #39M/3 T Anderson

$34M/2 Nate and $26M/2 Quintana

$25M/2 Manaea and Heaney

 

2022? (Not good)

$77.5 ERod, 71.3 Stroman, 56/4 J Gray, 50/2 Verlander, 44/4 Matz, 44/2 Rodon & 36/3 Kikuchi 

As much as none of these roads look wildly successful, I guess I'm just sick of sticking to one for failure after failure.

 

 

The goal posts are moving.  
 

First of all, a lot of these guys were the result of going cheap.  Second, a much bigger number of them are not working out.  I mean, Taijuan Walker has been worth 1 bWAR over 2 years in Philly.  Carlos Rodon has been worth a total of 1.1 bWAR to NY.  Did Boston really cheap out and miss these guys, just because they make less money? Do we need pitchers averaging less bWAR per season than Cooper Criswell?

The Sox haven’t gone crazy buying an “ace.”  But they did land Crochet and already had Houck.  I am not wild about Buehler, but they did land rest of this staff is looking better.  And it’s only Christmas.

 

Oh, and Merry Christmas!

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Not really fair to Lackey or the contract.  His fWAR was much higher.  He had a total fWAR of 12.7 for the years 2010-2015 (9.3 bWAR) - 1.3 of those years with St. Louis.  Total dollar value per FanGraphs 92.1 million.  Total salary 83 million.  2015 was the minimum wage year triggered by his injury, so it's only fair to count it as part of the contract he signed with Boston.

The differences between bWAR and fWAR for pitchers can be so big that they can make analysis like this pretty inconclusive, of course.  

If Fangraphs wants me to use fWAR, they can make their page more mobile friendly.  Also, B-R, unlike Fangraphs, splits up WAR for a player who played on multiple teams in one season, like Lackey did.

And what he did for St. Louis is irrelevant.  I only counted performances for Boston for any of those pitchers.  

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, notin said:

If Fangraphs wants me to use fWAR, they can make their page more mobile friendly.  Also, B-R, unlike Fangraphs, splits up WAR for a player who played on multiple teams in one season, like Lackey did.

And what he did for St. Louis is irrelevant.  I only counted performances for Boston for any of those pitchers.  

It's not irrelevant to an objective analysis of the contract, because we traded him.  It was our decision to forego the remaining value, which turned out to be significant. 

The bottom line is, Lackey ended up earning that contract, or close to it, depending on which metric you like.  

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The differences between bWAR and fWAR for pitchers can be so big that they can make analysis like this pretty inconclusive, of course.  

I don’t prefer one over the other.  But as Fangraphs mobile page can take forever to load, and B-R generally doesn’t, I tend to go their first.

I also like bWAR because it gets broken down by team when a player switches mid-season.

But if  I want to see how a player (or team) ranked at an individual position, fWAR is the one that does that.  Really, any sort of sorting and comparing or historical data is much easier on Fangraphs.

So my choice of one WAR over the other is more based on access and application.  It’s not like I have any clue which one is more accurate…

[notin]

37 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

It's not irrelevant to an objective analysis of the contract, because we traded him.  It was our decision to forego the remaining value, which turned out to be significant. 

The bottom line is, Lackey ended up earning that contract, or close to it, depending on which metric you like.  

That is another way to look at it. But Lackey’s minimum wage year was also his best year (5.8 bWAR).  On a different team in a different ballpark with a different pitching coach, and a different defense behind him. Does he have that same year in Boston?

Lackey’s contract was also the biggest ever for Sox pitcher at the time, but dealt with numbers that look miniscule compared to today’s deals.  And he barely justified it, largely with another team.  But if you want to say it was, then giving a big deal to a free agent starting pitcher did work once for Boston (and St. Louis) nearly two decades ago…

[Bellhorn04]

There's always going to be a lot of luck involved in whether a big free agent signing pays off or not.

If you get burned once or twice do you keep trying and hope the luck evens out, or do you stop playing? 

And if you stop playing, what do you do with that money you're not spending on free agents?

The Red Sox have gotten burned a few times without a doubt. 

OTOH expensive free agents have contributed significantly to all 4 of the Red Sox rings.

I'll take that tradeoff.   

[Bellhorn04]

The report is that the Sox offered 7/190 to Fried.  

So I'd say they're not completely done with big money free agents.

[Bellhorn04]

1 hour ago, notin said:

That is another way to look at it. But Lackey’s minimum wage year was also his best year (5.8 bWAR).  On a different team in a different ballpark with a different pitching coach, and a different defense behind him. Does he have that same year in Boston?

Lackey’s contract was also the biggest ever for Sox pitcher at the time, but dealt with numbers that look miniscule compared to today’s deals.  And he barely justified it, largely with another team.  But if you want to say it was, then giving a big deal to a free agent starting pitcher did work once for Boston (and St. Louis) nearly two decades ago…

Is 2013-2015 nearly two decades ago already?  Holy crap does time fly...

[moonslav59]

3 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Not really fair to Lackey or the contract.  His fWAR was much higher.  He had a total fWAR of 12.7 for the years 2010-2015 (9.3 bWAR) - 1.3 of those years with St. Louis.  Total dollar value per FanGraphs 92.1 million.  Total salary 83 million.  2015 was the minimum wage year triggered by his injury, so it's only fair to count it as part of the contract he signed with Boston.

The differences between bWAR and fWAR for pitchers can be so big that they can make analysis like this pretty inconclusive, of course.  

Excellent post.

Lackey is another example of the team signing someone with injury concerns, and they even insisted on an injury clause for the deal that ended up being triggered.

Lackey was a good signing, IMO. I think he pitched hurt, that one season, and that made his overall numbers look worse. We ended up getting Joe Kelly for him, along with the dud, Allen Craig.

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

The report is that the Sox offered 7/190 to Fried.  

So I'd say they're not completely done with big money free agents.

They may not be done bidding, but when you keep coming up short on not only the AAV but the years as well, you are never going to win a high-stakes auction.

$190/7 is $27.1M x 7. While that is a "fair offer," it came short on both ends. He signed for $227.25 x 8.

They guys we win the auctions are:

($10M+) Story, Yoshida, Giolito, Jansen, Martin, Turner, Kike, Richards, Kluber, Paxton, Hendriks. 

($5-9M) Diekman, Wacha, Duvall, Perez I, Perez II, Hill

(1.5-4.5M) Pillar (re-sign,) Strahm, Marwin, Renfroe, Mondesi, Moreland (re-sign,) Sawamura, Peraza, Andriese, Joely, Lucroy

_____________________________________

Extensions:

$313/10 Devers

$55M/6 Bello

$50M/8 Rafaela

$24/2 JBJ

$18.8/2 Barnes

$18.8/4 Whitlock

$10/1 Kike

$2/1 Refsnyder

Notable trades for contracts: $8M/1 Ottavino & $5.9M/1 O'Neill

 

 

[moonslav59]

As much as I wanted Fried (even more than Burnes,) I think not going 8 years is very understandable. That contract will take him to age 38, and not many pitchers do well up to that age. The guy does have a very nice prior 5 year stretch, despite missing half of 2023. He missed about 20-25 starts, which comes to about 4-5 per season, but these numbers are pretty freaking amazing:

54-25 2.81 (151 ERA+ is mindblowing for a 5 year stretch.) 3.7 K/BB, 1.09 WHIP and 3.11 FIP

Burnes is slightly younger and will almost certainly get 8 years, too- maybe 9.He's missed only about 5-10 starts in 5 years (1 to 2 per year.)

52-31 2.88 (142 ERA+) 4.2 K/BB, 1.02 WHIP and 3.01 FIP

Both look very close with their 5 year numbers.

3 years ERA+

149 Fried (3.03 FIP) 128 and 3.33 in 2024

131 Burnes (3.49 FIP) 128 and 3.55 in 2024 (Both nearly identical, this year, but Fried better over last 3 yrs.)

I will say, I'd rather have signed Fried than a Buehler every year for 8 years.

[moonslav59]

Merry Christmas!

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Is 2013-2015 nearly two decades ago already?  Holy crap does time fly...

Lackey signed that contract in 2009, over 15 years ago.  
 

Not sure what the f*** 2013 has to do with this…

[jdc69]

Sasaki

MERRY CHRISTMAS 

[Bellhorn04]

30 minutes ago, notin said:

Lackey signed that contract in 2009, over 15 years ago.  
 

Not sure what the f*** 2013 has to do with this…

Because the syntax of your sentence made it sound like the 2 decades referred to the years it worked for Boston and St. Louis.

But OK, you meant the year the contract was issued and that is indeed 15 years.  Still, I've never heard 15 years referred to as nearly 20 years.  

  

[moonslav59]

33 minutes ago, jdc69 said:

Sasaki

MERRY CHRISTMAS 

He would make for a very Merry Christmas.

[Bellhorn04]

2 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

He would make for a very Merry Christmas.

Breslow said they have no meeting scheduled with Sasaki.

[moonslav59]

7 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Breslow said they have no meeting scheduled with Sasaki.

Going stealth.

[Bellhorn04]

1 minute ago, moonslav59 said:

Going stealth.

There are things to be hopeful about.  Sasaki isn't one of them.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

12 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

There are things to be hopeful about.  Sasaki isn't one of them.

But Sake is (at 13 to 17 percent)!

And so Happy Christmas...

[notin]

35 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Still, I've never heard 15 years referred to as nearly 20 years.  

  

Now you have…

[Randy Red Sox]

5 hours ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Personally I would never want to undo a deal that resulted in a ring, so I have no problem with Price or Lackey.

Or Foulke for that matter, who was not much use in the second and third years of his contract with us.

 

that is because we burned him out in 2004 WS run