A Realistic View of the 2025 Red Sox: Part I

[Bellhorn04]

16 hours ago, notin said:

There’s a difference between misidentifying talent and signing players who get injured.  So Story was a failed signing by Bloom but Sale was a successful one for DD?  Seems counterintuitive.

DD did have more success stories, but he signed a lot more large deals.  And when forced to operate on a budget, he didn’t do so well.  Comparing the jobs each one did to each other is not the same at all.

Yes Bloom missed on those low impact deals like Kluber, etc.  How much did those handicap the team?  And why is the $40-50mill spent on those players somehow more debilitating to the Sox than the $320mill plus spent on Price/Sale/Eovadi for which the Sox received about $21 bWAR  total?

You can't really compare the two because they did have very different budgets and mandates.  DD got 3 division titles and a ring, for a lot of people that counts big.

Hey, they both got fired after the same amount of time, so JH apparently agrees that they were much the same in performance...

[mvp 78]

DD got fired because he created a payroll mess that led to Mookie being traded away. 

[Bellhorn04]

4 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

DD got fired because he created a payroll mess that led to Mookie being traded away. 

I don't think so.  

[Hitch]

10 hours ago, notin said:

Yoshida’s contract isn’t a big deal.

First of all, he is a pretty good hitter.

Second, unlike most players paid similarly, Yoshida has options left and can be demoted to Worcester.  
 

If he can’t be traded, DH him or D-mote him…

You can only DH him (which is why we haven't made moves from Bregman or Arenado I imagine, as Devers would become a full time DH), as Cora flat out refuses to play him in the field. He flat out refused to play him even at DH last year on several occasions, even when it seemed an obvious choice.

 

He really doesn't seem to like/rate him. 

[notin]

2 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I don't think so.  

Why not? 
 

How would you describe the payroll state of the Sox after 2019?  When they spent over $240mill on an 84 win team that missed the postseason by a dozen games?  And still had $300mill tied up in Sale, Price and Eovaldi, who were all starting to get repeatedly injured, and then couldn’t afford Mookie.

And you think he WASN’T fired for that? Seriously? What abominable crime against nature do you think that man committed that led to his firing?

[notin]

3 minutes ago, Hitch said:

You can only DH him (which is why we haven't made moves from Bregman or Arenado I imagine, as Devers would become a full time DH), as Cora flat out refuses to play him in the field. He flat out refused to play him even at DH last year on several occasions, even when it seemed an obvious choice.

 

He really doesn't seem to like/rate him. 

Maybe there were health reasons when he sat? 
 

Cora has absolutely shown a willingness to play Yoshida in the field at one point.

Of course if the Sox demote him to Worcester, not sure how Cora’s usage of him matters.

And for the record, Devers’ blatant refusal to move off third is a bigger factor in not acquiring Arenado.  With Bregman, the issue besides money is the divide on his position…

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, notin said:

Why not? 
 

How would you describe the payroll state of the Sox after 2019?  When they spent over $240mill on an 84 win team that missed the postseason by a dozen games?  And still had $300mill tied up in Sale, Price and Eovaldi, who were all starting to get repeatedly injured, and then couldn’t afford Mookie.

And you think he WASN’T fired for that? Seriously? What abominable crime against nature do you think that man committed that led to his firing?

Are you really up for litigating this all over again?

The "payroll mess" IMHO was fully authorized/mandated by John Henry.

There were rumors that DD was not being a team player and that seems plausible.

But I'd say the clearest reason they fired DD was because they wanted to go in a whole new direction.  Subsequent events bear this out.

[mvp 78]

12 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I don't think so.  

Ben was fired because he couldn't keep the Sox from falling into last place every other year. He also had some pretty bad signings.

Bloom was fired because he couldn't keep the Sox from falling into last place every other year. He also had some pretty bad signings. 

You can't say that about DD. Why was he fired? He won the division back to back to back. He won a WS. One off year shouldn't get a CBO/GM fired. 

[mvp 78]

1 minute ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Are you really up for litigating this all over again?

The "payroll mess" IMHO was fully authorized/mandated by John Henry.

There were rumors that DD was not being a team player and that seems plausible.

But I'd say the clearest reason they fired DD was because they wanted to go in a whole new direction.  Subsequent events bear this out.

They had to go in a different direction once the core of the team was going to be walking out the door. If Mookie could have stayed, JH would have kept the ball rolling IMO. 

[Bellhorn04]

Just now, mvp 78 said:

They had to go in a different direction once the core of the team was going to be walking out the door. If Mookie could have stayed, JH would have kept the ball rolling IMO. 

Yeah but it was JH who drew a line in the sand with Mookie, so this seems kind of circular.

[Hitch]

Just now, notin said:

Maybe there were health reasons when he sat? 
 

Cora has absolutely shown a willingness to play Yoshida in the field at one point.

Of course if the Sox demote him to Worcester, not sure how Cora’s usage of him matters…

There was a period where he sat on the bench whilst healthy (against right or left handers) and didn't start a game. To the point where your usual reporters like Cotillo and Speirs were making a big deal of it on Twitter and bringing it up in press conferences with Cora - to which he seemed to get a bit annoyed by the questions. I remember thinking at the time - he really doesn't like the guy.

I'd be amazed if we put him in AAA. That's any trade value gone. 

[Hitch]

I agree with MVP and Notin that it was one of the major factors, but Bell is right, there was a lot of talk about there being a falling out/DD being hard to work with at the time. 

That might all be bull/planted of course, but there was definitely smoke in that direction around the time of his sacking. 

[moonslav59]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

They need a lottery system that prevents this kind of thing, because you really can't expect all the teams to be playing to win games that mean nothing like this one.

And the DEN- KC game, too.

[moonslav59]

4 minutes ago, Hitch said:

There was a period where he sat on the bench whilst healthy (against right or left handers) and didn't start a game. To the point where your usual reporters like Cotillo and Speirs were making a big deal of it on Twitter and bringing it up in press conferences with Cora - to which he seemed to get a bit annoyed by the questions. I remember thinking at the time - he really doesn't like the guy.

I'd be amazed if we put him in AAA. That's any trade value gone. 

They may keep him there on an extended "rehab," but I think he's our DH in 2025- maybe on a platoon with Refsnyder. We may try Ref in LF v LHPs w Duran in CF and Rafaela in RF vs LH'd SP'ers.

[Bellhorn04]

5 minutes ago, Hitch said:

I agree with MVP and Notin that it was one of the major factors, but Bell is right, there was a lot of talk about there being a falling out/DD being hard to work with at the time. 

That might all be bull/planted of course, but there was definitely smoke in that direction around the time of his sacking. 

I think DD is an old school guy who expects to be given mucho control as CBO.  Now it seems like the Sox are sort of run by an operations team that prominently includes Sam Kennedy.

[moonslav59]

3 minutes ago, Hitch said:

I agree with MVP and Notin that it was one of the major factors, but Bell is right, there was a lot of talk about there being a falling out/DD being hard to work with at the time. 

That might all be bull/planted of course, but there was definitely smoke in that direction around the time of his sacking. 

It's probably a mixture of all these things, and don't undersell how DD was not happy about having to let Kimbrell & Kelly go, before 2019, without being able to spend to replace them and then being asked to trade Betts in 2019. He could see the direction the team was going, and I'm sure he was displeased and probably let it show. His personality was such that he couldn't stay quiet, IMO.

[Hitch]

4 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

They may keep him there on an extended "rehab," but I think he's our DH in 2025- maybe on a platoon with Refsnyder. We may try Ref in LF v LHPs w Duran in CF and Rafaela in RF vs LH'd SP'ers.

I think this is why we aren't signing anyone else. The Yoshida contract above all else handcuffs on the DH/moving Devers to 3rd issue. Unless we can move Casas which it appears we've been trying to do all fall/winter so far, But this looks unlikely too. 

 

The idea of another year of Devers at 3rd is painful.

[Hitch]

4 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I think DD is an old school guy who expects to be given mucho control as CBO.  Now it seems like the Sox are sort of run by an operations team that prominently includes Sam Kennedy.

 

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's probably a mixture of all these things, and don't undersell how DD was not happy about having to let Kimbrell & Kelly go, before 2019, without being able to spend to replace them and then being asked to trade Betts in 2019. He could see the direction the team was going, and I'm sure he was displeased and probably let it show. His personality was such that he couldn't stay quiet, IMO.

 

I think both these are fair,  while saying it was highly likely the management of the payroll was the biggest factor. 

This is why I hate judging GM's. You can never judge them solely on their time in the job, What they took over, what they left behind, often gets overlooked. DD did a lot of good and bad. So did Bloom. And Ben, and every other GM (well, not every).

Though I will never forgive Bloom for those two consecutive trade deadlines f*** ups. 

[moonslav59]

6 minutes ago, Hitch said:

I think this is why we aren't signing anyone else. The Yoshida contract above all else handcuffs on the DH/moving Devers to 3rd issue. Unless we can move Casas which it appears we've been trying to do all fall/winter so far, But this looks unlikely too. 

The idea of another year of Devers at 3rd is painful.

It's a self imposed handcuff. Kennedy spoke of the ability to go over the tax line, this winter, so what changed? We added a couple one year deals worth over $30M (Buehler & Chapman.) The Sandoval signing and Crochet deals do not bind us, deeply, in terms of money.

We can easily afford Scott at $5M more than the top offer is.

[Hitch]

3 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's a self imposed handcuff. Kennedy spoke of the ability to go over the tax line, this winter, so what changed? We added a couple one year deals worth over $30M (Buehler & Chapman.) The Sandoval signing and Crochet deals do not bind us, deeply, in terms of money.

We can easily afford Scott at $5M more than the top offer is.

Agreed, but I can totally see why they don't want a guy just sitting there making $15m for the next few years and instead saying - make it work or find a way to trade him. 

[mvp 78]

40 minutes ago, Hitch said:

I agree with MVP and Notin that it was one of the major factors, but Bell is right, there was a lot of talk about there being a falling out/DD being hard to work with at the time. 

That might all be bull/planted of course, but there was definitely smoke in that direction around the time of his sacking. 

The reason he was listed as being hard to work with was that he didn't like Sam Kennedy being in every meeting.

I wonder who pushed that complaint to the media?

[mvp 78]

37 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

I think DD is an old school guy who expects to be given mucho control as CBO.  Now it seems like the Sox are sort of run by an operations team that prominently includes Sam Kennedy.

And how's that working out? 

[mvp 78]

24 minutes ago, moonslav59 said:

It's a self imposed handcuff. Kennedy spoke of the ability to go over the tax line, this winter, so what changed? We added a couple one year deals worth over $30M (Buehler & Chapman.) The Sandoval signing and Crochet deals do not bind us, deeply, in terms of money.

We can easily afford Scott at $5M more than the top offer is.

They have the ability, but not the desire.

[Hitch]

8 minutes ago, mvp 78 said:

The reason he was listed as being hard to work with was that he didn't like Sam Kennedy being in every meeting.

I wonder who pushed that complaint to the media?

With all speculation like this, I pay it little to no attention as we don't know what is and isn't true.

[notin]

1 hour ago, Bellhorn04 said:

Are you really up for litigating this all over again?

The "payroll mess" IMHO was fully authorized/mandated by John Henry.

There were rumors that DD was not being a team player and that seems plausible.

But I'd say the clearest reason they fired DD was because they wanted to go in a whole new direction.  Subsequent events bear this out.

I could see Henry authorizing the mess and still holding it against DD.  Sounds just like how Ilitch handled him in Detroit.   The “payroll mess” was acceptable as long as the team was winning.

 

Seems plausible that his “not a team player” attitude falls into the same category.  All of this is acceptable when it’s working.  But once it stops, Henry was left with a guy who built an expensive mediocre team and was difficult to work with.  That all seems plausible…

[mvp 78]

18 minutes ago, notin said:

I could see Henry authorizing the mess and still holding it against DD.  Sounds just like how Ilitch handled him in Detroit.   The “payroll mess” was acceptable as long as the team was winning.

 

Seems plausible that his “not a team player” attitude falls into the same category.  All of this is acceptable when it’s working.  But once it stops, Henry was left with a guy who built an expensive mediocre team and was difficult to work with.  That all seems plausible…

Henry not being consistent isn't entirely a surprise.

Also, Henry giving the CBO the keys to the car and then just taking them away rather than micromanaging the signings is what we actually want. Right? Did he give DD autonomy he wouldn't give other CBO's and then just regretted it later on? 

[Bellhorn04]

39 minutes ago, notin said:

Seems plausible that his “not a team player” attitude falls into the same category.  All of this is acceptable when it’s working.  But once it stops, Henry was left with a guy who built an expensive mediocre team and was difficult to work with.  That all seems plausible…

And I think it's unfair to say he "built an expensive mediocre team".  The 2019 team was expensive because it included expensive guys who just won 108 games and a World Series.  It included hefty arb raises and dead money that DD had nothing to do with. 

They tried to run it back, as the saying goes, but the pitching fell apart due to injuries, tired arms from 2018 or whatever.  The 2019 offense actually scored more runs than the 2018 team. and had a run differential of +73.

A lot of the remnants of the 2019 team were on the 2021 team that made it to ALCS Game 6.

I think you're a little biased against DD.

We all have biases of course.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Now that's it's officially next year, even though the Sox weren't the big spenders their president promised, this offseason can still contain major changes that will generate excitement and hope for this and future seasons:

Kristian Campbell starting at second base.

Roman Anthony starting at an outfield corner.

One is the Minor League Player of the Year, the other is baseball's Number One rated prospect. That means they're two of the very best in the training grounds for future major leaguers. So how much more ready for the big leagues can top prospects get?

Pragmatists can caution about some aspect that still needs to be mastered, and adjustments --  but every single player at every age constantly has something to work on. 

I have no desire whatsoever to instead see a Grissom-Hamilton platoon at 2B; they may be good guys, but let's be serious, they're also two who participated in the worst group of second baseman of any team in the entire sport last year. In the outfield, neither Refsynder nor Yoshida is reliable on D, though their batting averages are higher than Rafaela's On Base Percentage.

The Red Sox need star power, and the time is now.

[mvp 78]

12 minutes ago, Bellhorn04 said:

And I think it's unfair to say he "built an expensive mediocre team".  The 2019 team was expensive because it included expensive guys who just won 108 games and a World Series.  It included hefty arb raises and dead money that DD had nothing to do with. 

They tried to run it back, as the saying goes, but the pitching fell apart due to injuries, tired arms from 2018 or whatever.  The 2019 offense actually scored more runs than the 2018 team. and had a run differential of +73.

A lot of the remnants of the 2019 team were on the 2021 team that made it to ALCS Game 6.

I think you're a little biased against DD.

We all have biases of course.

Yeah, 2021 was really DD's team, but would have been better with Mookie still on it. 

[Hitch]

49 minutes ago, 5GoldGlovesOF,75 said:

Now that's it's officially next year, even though the Sox weren't the big spenders their president promised, this offseason can still contain major changes that will generate excitement and hope for this and future seasons:

Kristian Campbell starting at second base.

Roman Anthony starting at an outfield corner.

One is the Minor League Player of the Year, the other is baseball's Number One rated prospect. That means they're two of the very best in the training grounds for future major leaguers. So how much more ready for the big leagues can top prospects get?

Pragmatists can caution about some aspect that still needs to be mastered, and adjustments --  but every single player at every age constantly has something to work on. 

I have no desire whatsoever to instead see a Grissom-Hamilton platoon at 2B; they may be good guys, but let's be serious, they're also two who participated in the worst group of second baseman of any team in the entire sport last year. In the outfield, neither Refsynder nor Yoshida is reliable on D, though their batting averages are higher than Rafaela's On Base Percentage.

The Red Sox need star power, and the time is now.

Harsh on Grissom after being injured for such large parts. This year is the one that'll show he is either good enough or isn't. I still hold up hope.