Red Sox ownership

[mvp 78]

It's not the budget, silly. It's all about control -- why sign a good pitcher for seven years?

 

What, and waste the last three seasons of Raffy's contract?

 

Henry puts RATM on and believes the machine is all the plebes that are telling him what he should be doing with a small % of his billions. f*** you I won't do what you tell me!

[Bellhorn04]

Henry puts RATM on and believes the machine is all the plebes that are telling him what he should be doing with a small % of his billions. f*** you I won't do what you tell me!

 

JH just might have that kind of mad stubborn streak in him.

 

All the signs of it have been there over the years, really, starting with refusing to cough up another 12-15 mill for A-Rod.

 

Lester, Betts, Bogaerts.

 

Now this.

[mvp 78]

https://www.wsj.com/sports/baseball/mlb-uniforms-nike-fanatics-b40be247?st=opt8trzr0vbjq8c&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

In a league that has spent a decade seeking opportunities to maximize its star power for marketing purposes, players have asked why names and numbers on the back weren’t just given new materials, but were also given less prominence.

 

For many players, a critical issue is that the tucked-in jersey tails show through the pants, making it look vaguely like they’re wearing a diaper. For one unfortunate big-leaguer, though, things took a more embarrassing turn when an image from team photo day showed his nether regions visible through his uniform pants.

[mvp 78]

JH just might have that kind of mad stubborn streak in him.

 

All the signs of it have been there over the years, really, starting with refusing to cough up another 12-15 mill for A-Rod.

 

Lester, Betts, Bogaerts.

 

Now this.

 

I was really starting not to like him over the past few years. I really hate the guy now. I know a certain subset still pine for the guy who went on the F&M show back in the day and ranted about Crawford's contract, but that s***'s gone and he was the guy agreeing to the contract anyway.

[Bellhorn04]

https://www.wsj.com/sports/baseball/mlb-uniforms-nike-fanatics-b40be247?st=opt8trzr0vbjq8c&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

In a league that has spent a decade seeking opportunities to maximize its star power for marketing purposes, players have asked why names and numbers on the back weren’t just given new materials, but were also given less prominence.

 

For many players, a critical issue is that the tucked-in jersey tails show through the pants, making it look vaguely like they’re wearing a diaper. For one unfortunate big-leaguer, though, things took a more embarrassing turn when an image from team photo day showed his nether regions visible through his uniform pants.

 

Surely to God Nike is going to fix this.

[moonslav59]

https://www.wsj.com/sports/baseball/mlb-uniforms-nike-fanatics-b40be247?st=opt8trzr0vbjq8c&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

 

In a league that has spent a decade seeking opportunities to maximize its star power for marketing purposes, players have asked why names and numbers on the back weren’t just given new materials, but were also given less prominence.

 

For many players, a critical issue is that the tucked-in jersey tails show through the pants, making it look vaguely like they’re wearing a diaper. For one unfortunate big-leaguer, though, things took a more embarrassing turn when an image from team photo day showed his nether regions visible through his uniform pants.

 

Maybe Sale will cut up his pants.

[mvp 78]

Maybe Sale will cut up his pants.

 

Might not be the only one this time.

[Duran Is The Man]

Maybe Sale will cut up his pants.

 

Bad news about Sale. After walking across a rug in his socks and touching a door knob, the resulting charge from static electricity put him on the DL until late August.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Another reason for the Red Sox to sign a good starting pitcher NOW longterm -- besides, you know, making them actually better -- is it would not only show players and alumni (blabbing in the media) that they're serious about improvement... but that it would show future free agents that Boston is a viable option.

 

And don't just say it's all about the money, since Yamamoto was always set on being a Dodger -- if reports are true he was offered more by the owner of the Phillies, an actual World Series contender.

 

The Red Sox have to change the perception in the industry that ownership will no longer pay market value for top free agent talent. It's probably already too late to even expect a guy like Roki Sasaki to come to Boston; no one is looking forward to signing with a last place club. But there will be other Rokis in the future...

[jad]

Another reason for the Red Sox to sign a good starting pitcher NOW longterm -- besides, you know, making them actually better -- is it would not only show players and alumni (blabbing in the media) that they're serious about improvement... but that it would show future free agents that Boston is a viable option.

 

And don't just say it's all about the money, since Yamamoto was always set on being a Dodger -- if reports are true he was offered more by the owner of the Phillies, an actual World Series contender.

 

The Red Sox have to change the perception in the industry that ownership will no longer pay market value for top free agent talent. It's probably already too late to even expect a guy like Roki Sasaki to come to Boston; no one is looking forward to signing with a last place club. But there will be other Rokis in the future...

 

You mean, they need to make others "perceive" something that is not the case?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You mean, they need to make others "perceive" something that is not the case?

 

Reality?

[moonslav59]

Another reason for the Red Sox to sign a good starting pitcher NOW longterm -- besides, you know, making them actually better -- is it would not only show players and alumni (blabbing in the media) that they're serious about improvement... but that it would show future free agents that Boston is a viable option.

 

And don't just say it's all about the money, since Yamamoto was always set on being a Dodger -- if reports are true he was offered more by the owner of the Phillies, an actual World Series contender.

 

The Red Sox have to change the perception in the industry that ownership will no longer pay market value for top free agent talent. It's probably already too late to even expect a guy like Roki Sasaki to come to Boston; no one is looking forward to signing with a last place club. But there will be other Rokis in the future...

 

I guess it's all relative.

 

How many teams in MLB have signed 3 players to more than this in the past 3 winters? (Actually 2 years- from March 2022 to March 2024.)

 

$313.5M/10

$140M/6

$90M/5 (not counting posting fee)

 

This is not meant to be a sign of support for our spending levels, but compared to most teams, we are still high spenders.

 

 

[notin]

I guess it's all relative.

 

How many teams in MLB have signed 3 players to more than this in the past 3 winters? (Actually 2 years- from March 2022 to March 2024.)

 

$313.5M/10

$140M/6

$90M/5 (not counting posting fee)

 

This is not meant to be a sign of support for our spending levels, but compared to most teams, we are still high spenders.

 

 

 

And the Sox gave Giolito an $18mill AAV contract when, according to Lucas, no one else was even close…

[moonslav59]

Reality?

 

Reality also includes the fact that we invested over $500M in just 4 players since March 2022.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Reality also includes the fact that we invested over $500M in just 4 players since March 2022.

 

The proverbial reality I was referring to was from the perception. And even though I'll be damned because I can't name your four players from the past two years -- Devers $330 + Story $160 + uhhh -- Wacha and Refsnyder? ... I seriously doubt that any big time free agent talent can, either.

 

What's your point, anyway? "Anybody that knows baseball knows what we need." Said Raffy.

[moonslav59]

The proverbial reality I was referring to was from the perception. And even though I'll be damned because I can't name your four players from the past two years -- Devers $330 + Story $160 + uhhh -- Wacha and Refsnyder? ... I seriously doubt that any big time free agent talent can, either.

 

What's your point, anyway? "Anybody that knows baseball knows what we need." Said Raffy.

 

I'm as pissed as anyone about JH's frugality.

 

The 4 are Devers, Story, Yoshida (who total over $580, by themselves.) The 4th was Giolito, who puts the number over $600M.

[moonslav59]

What's your point, anyway? "Anybody that knows baseball knows what we need." Said Raffy.

 

My point was that the perception does not really match up with reality.

 

Yes, our budget ranking has gone way down. Some of that is due to massive increased spending by a handful or teams. Some is due to this self-imposed budget limiting by JH, this winter, before 2020 and 2021. (The 2022 and 2023 spending was not all that low. It was just spent in the wrong areas and on some players that did not produce or got hurt.)

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

My point was that the perception does not really match up with reality.

 

Yes, our budget ranking has gone way down. Some of that is due to massive increased spending by a handful or teams. Some is due to this self-imposed budget limiting by JH, this winter, before 2020 and 2021. (The 2022 and 2023 spending was not all that low. It was just spent in the wrong areas and on some players that did not produce or got hurt.)

 

I agree with this entire post. But my first post today was that this current perception across the industry is hurting the Red Sox' recruiting, and needs to be changed with action.

[notin]

The proverbial reality I was referring to was from the perception. And even though I'll be damned because I can't name your four players from the past two years -- Devers $330 + Story $160 + uhhh -- Wacha and Refsnyder? ... I seriously doubt that any big time free agent talent can, either.

 

What's your point, anyway? "Anybody that knows baseball knows what we need." Said Raffy.

 

 

His point is the fan perception isn’t always reality. All though 2021 we kept hearing how cheap the Sox were despite them having a top 5 payroll.

 

Even now we all talk about how cheap they are, but there is truth that they have spent $500mill on 4 plsyers in the last 24 months, and that plenty of teams have not done as much. So now what are you coming with? That they didn’t spend it on the players you wanted? That’s not the same as not spending…

[moonslav59]

I agree with this entire post. But my first post today was that this current perception across the industry is hurting the Red Sox' recruiting, and needs to be changed with action.

 

I'm not sure how much the "perception" is keeping players from signing, here. We just aren't making top offers, very often.

 

The Eflin snub looked more like a geography thing- not our perception of being too cheap. (Afterall, he signed with the low spending Rays.)

 

The fans and media certainly have the perception, and it is based in some reality. Although 2019 was our highest payroll ever, we actually let Kimbrell and Kelly go and added nobody new. 2020 was a massive budget cut season, and 2021 did not come close to replacing what we lost. 2022 and 2023 were, more or less, in line with previous spending, but some other teams shot up in budget spending.

 

This winter looks like an obvious punt. The perception, now is equal to the reality, in terms of new spending, which is needed after 2 last place finishes.

 

The big question is whether this tight-assness is just temporary, or not.

[moonslav59]

His point is the fan perception isn’t always reality. All though 2021 we kept hearing how cheap the Sox were despite them having a top 5 payroll.

 

Even now we all talk about how cheap they are, but there is truth that they have spent $500mill on 4 plsyers in the last 24 months, and that plenty of teams have not done as much. So now what are you coming with? That they didn’t spend it on the players you wanted? That’s not the same as not spending…

 

I'd be curious to know how many teams spent over $500M of "new money" in the last 3 winters of spending.

 

The reality is, we spent more than $600M on 4 players, and I did not include guys like Kluber, Kike, Richards, Duvall, Wacha, Hill and lesser players.

 

Sure, not many teams lost big salaries like those from Bogey, JD, Nate, Sale and others, but the perception of us not spending a lot is just wrong, except for the "new spending" lows before 2019, 2020, to some extent 2021 and now 2024.

 

We spent large on Sale, Bogey and Nate extensions, before DD left, and the Devers extension blows the others away, but "new spending" has not really been peanuts in 2 of the last 3 winters.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

His point is the fan perception isn’t always reality. All though 2021 we kept hearing how cheap the Sox were despite them having a top 5 payroll.

 

Even now we all talk about how cheap they are, but there is truth that they have spent $500mill on 4 plsyers in the last 24 months, and that plenty of teams have not done as much. So now what are you coming with? That they didn’t spend it on the players you wanted? That’s not the same as not spending…

 

You said fan perception. I said -- here, I'll quote my first post, with the bold-faced sentence still bold-faced:

 

"The Red Sox have to change the perception in the industry that ownership will no longer pay market value for top free agent talent."

 

And in '21, I didn't care what the Red Sox payroll was, and I still don't care in '24, because payrolls always include paying or owing money to players who were signed years before, were dumped and subsidized to wear another uni, or were cut because injuries prevented them from contributing.

 

All that matters each offseason is how a front office uses resources to improve a club for the next season. You know it, I know it, and Raffy knows we know it (but can't say it out loud).

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'm not sure how much the "perception" is keeping players from signing, here. We just aren't making top offers, very often.

 

The Eflin snub looked more like a geography thing- not our perception of being too cheap. (Afterall, he signed with the low spending Rays.)

 

The fans and media certainly have the perception, and it is based in some reality. Although 2019 was our highest payroll ever, we actually let Kimbrell and Kelly go and added nobody new. 2020 was a massive budget cut season, and 2021 did not come close to replacing what we lost. 2022 and 2023 were, more or less, in line with previous spending, but some other teams shot up in budget spending.

 

This winter looks like an obvious punt. The perception, now is equal to the reality, in terms of new spending, which is needed after 2 last place finishes.

 

The big question is whether this tight-assness is just temporary, or not.

 

Good post, ending with the billion-dollar question.

 

Since the Sox' top need throughout the Bloom Era continues to be pitching every single season, is it fair to wonder this winter if the owner and/or longtime Asst. VPs are looking at the Sale trade, and thinking:

 

"Finally got rid of our biggest waste of money the past half decade... and the last thing we're going to do now is put ourselves right back into that situation!"

[notin]

You said fan perception. I said -- here, I'll quote my first post, with the bold-faced sentence still bold-faced:

 

"The Red Sox have to change the perception in the industry that ownership will no longer pay market value for top free agent talent."

 

And in '21, I didn't care what the Red Sox payroll was, and I still don't care in '24, because payrolls always include paying or owing money to players who were signed years before, were dumped and subsidized to wear another uni, or were cut because injuries prevented them from contributing.

 

All that matters each offseason is how a front office uses resources to improve a club for the next season. You know it, I know it, and Raffy knows we know it (but can't say it out loud).

 

What is the perception in the industry? Not being in it myself, I don’t know. But as moon pointed out, they extended Devers, signed Story, and Yoshida. Not to mention lots of small term deals to players like Giolito, Jansen, Martin, Duvall, Kluber, etc.

 

The Sox are still 11th in payroll per sportrac. That same source has the Dodgers 8th in payroll. Granted they could and maybe should be higher. But there is certainly some spending. And there are still options left for this season waiting for deals…

Edited February 26, 2024 by notin

[notin]

I agree with this entire post. But my first post today was that this current perception across the industry is hurting the Red Sox' recruiting, and needs to be changed with action.

 

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. What is their reputation?

 

They likely have not made competitive offers. They’ve probably overcommitted to the wrong players. But I don’tj get what you mean…

[moonslav59]

Good post, ending with the billion-dollar question.

 

Since the Sox' top need throughout the Bloom Era continues to be pitching every single season, is it fair to wonder this winter if the owner and/or longtime Asst. VPs are looking at the Sale trade, and thinking:

 

"Finally got rid of our biggest waste of money the past half decade... and the last thing we're going to do now is put ourselves right back into that situation!"

 

The whole one year and done plan for SP'ers is a joke. Even if we did a little better with our choices, it would not have made a big enough impact to make us contenders. The weird part is, besides the lost 2020 season, our SP'er choices for 2021, the year we went pretty far, look the worst of the last 4 years, in terms of results per dollar spent.

 

2021: Richards $10M & Perez II $5M

2022: Wacha $7M & Hill $5M

2023: Kluber $10M

2023: Giolito $19M

 

I've said this before, but you get what you pay for.

 

We did actually offer Nate and Eflin multi year deals that matched or exceeded what they ultimately signed for, but of course the best two went elsewhere.

 

Our biggest expenditures on SP'ers, since Lackey:

 

Price $217/7 '16

Porcello $82.5M/4 "16

Eovaldi $68M/4 '19

Sale &145M/5 '20 (contract extended in 2019)

 

We have not signed a pitcher to a multi-year deal in 5 years, unless you count Whitlock's $19M/4 extension that kicked in in 2023.

 

You get what you pay for, and one year pitchers rarely work out- for obvious reasons.

 

 

[moonslav59]

I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about. What is their reputation?

 

They likely have not made competitive offers. They’ve probably overcommitted to the wrong players. But I don’tj get what you mean…

 

I think the media and fans have the perception GG is talking about, but when I hear the word "industry," I think players, coaches, GMs and maybe baseball analysts.

 

[notin]

I think the media and fans have the perception GG is talking about, but when I hear the word "industry," I think players, coaches, GMs and maybe baseball analysts.

 

 

We think the Sox are being cheap. But I don’t think that “reputation” hurts them in negotiating. It’s not like if they had made the same offer to Yamamoto that the Dodgers had, the pitcher and his agent would have been thinking “wait. They’re being cheap! That’s what they do.”

 

The issue is they don’t make the offers. At least that’s what it looks like to me…

[moonslav59]

We think the Sox are being cheap. But I don’t think that “reputation” hurts them in negotiating. It’s not like if they had made the same offer to Yamamoto that the Dodgers had, the pitcher and his agent would have been thinking “wait. They’re being cheap! That’s what they do.”

 

The issue is they don’t make the offers. At least that’s what it looks like to me…

 

Agreed.

 

I'm just not so sure the day will come when we splurge on a SP'er, anytime soon.

[notin]

Agreed.

 

I'm just not so sure the day will come when we splurge on a SP'er, anytime soon.

 

Two thoughts:

 

1. Splurging on free agent starting pitching has rarely worked out in the past. Not just for Boston, either.

 

2. Not going all in on Monthomery and/or Snell might mean as little as the Sox are not huge fans Montgomery and/or Snell.