Craig Breslow hired as Head Of Baseball Operations

[Old Red]

That stretch has endured.

 

He shored up the BP in Boston though.

[sk7326]

I think preseason 2013 was similar to 2021 and maybe even 2022, but the results were different.

 

Injuries and unexpected decines by veterans in their primes or near it, are unforeseeable and common reasons why some teams never met preseason expectations.

 

I do see the rotations of teams before 2020 as being better. Many teams had better offenses and defenses. Few had a better pen than the 2022 one, before it was raided to fill open rotation slots.

 

I did not expect us to make the playoffs in 2013 or 2021. I did in many years we missed out or missed by a longshot.

 

I will disagree about 2013. Going from Bobby V to a functional human being as manger combined with simply our good players staying healthy I thought put the roster at least on the Wild Card map ... the free agents we brought in all worked out, but you look at the caliber of returning players on the 2013 team compared to 2021 and it's not trivial.

 

Injuries and unexpected performance are common reasons for things to happen or not happen - but we all know that. All a GM can do is put out a product where the median outcomes set the team up for success.

 

Now, what is funny is that I am optimistic about the future - particularly with the young position players in the system and the future roster. What Bloom did might very well bear fruit. But the team - the bleeping Boston Red Sox - did not have to wander through a hopeless malaise either in the interim. We don't have to imagine the world where the Red Sox could turn over positions on the fly - it happened between 2004 and 2007.

[sk7326]

It's fact that Epstein was gone after 2011, Cherington after 2015, Dombrowski after 2019 and Bloom after 2023. To me it's a strange pattern, especially when we're talking about the franchise that has won the most championships this century. If you don't see it that way, that's fine.

 

Epstein also sort of left in 2006.

[notin]

Of course. And I think everyone who has lived on the planet a while and has a functioning brain is familiar with the idea that there's more than one way of getting somebody to leave.

 

Right. And the mercurial and volatile Henry resorted to duplicity to coax Cherington to leave, in spite of Henry’s overt firing of others with seemingly little to no regard for PR. One would think, given Cherington’s lack of popularity, Henry would have leapt at the chance to fire him. Just for the positive story…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Also a fact that he was pardoned.

 

It's one thing to know the facts, and another to think critically about the realities that underlie the facts...

 

Facts like the one who pardoned him served on the Warren Commission (would it be critical or reality to now call it the notorious or preposterous Warren Commission?)...

 

We also can't prove the guy who succeeded the quitter was specifically chosen based on giving a pardon, but even if that underlies the critical time, it's now accepted that they are all underliars...

[Bellhorn04]

Right. And the mercurial and volatile Henry resorted to duplicity to coax Cherington to leave, in spite of Henry’s overt firing of others with seemingly little to no regard for PR. One would think, given Cherington’s lack of popularity, Henry would have leapt at the chance to fire him. Just for the positive story…

 

So do you believe it came as a big surprise to Henry that Cherington left after DD came aboard?

[notin]

So do you believe it came as a big surprise to Henry that Cherington left after DD came aboard?

 

I have no idea. I do know Dombrowski was surprised…

[Bellhorn04]

I have no idea. I do know Dombrowski was surprised…

 

I don't think many outside the organization were surprised at all. It was obviously a case of being demoted, and Cherington did what many in his position would have done.

[Old Red]

I don't think many outside the organization were surprised at all. It was obviously a case of being demoted, and Cherington did what many in his position would have done.

 

Exactly. NG in Florida did the same thing just recently.

[mvp 78]

He shored up the BP in Boston though.

 

So much that they relied on starters during the 2018 playoff run to fill in the bullpen holes and couldn't rely on their closer.

[Bellhorn04]

Exactly. NG in Florida did the same thing just recently.

 

And Click left Houston after they offered him a one-year extension. Seems he took that as a slap in the face too...

 

I guess some of these baseball executive folks are just really sensitive!

[mvp 78]

And Click left Houston after they offered him a one-year extension. Seems he took that as a slap in the face too...

 

I guess some of these baseball executive folks are just really sensitive!

 

And Henry also offered Bloom an alternate role within the Sox org...

[Bellhorn04]

So much that they relied on starters during the 2018 playoff run to fill in the bullpen holes and couldn't rely on their closer.

 

Not really DD's fault that Kimbrel picked such a bad time to suck.

 

Kimbrel in 2023 might be a different story.

[Bellhorn04]

And Henry also offered Bloom an alternate role within the Sox org...

 

Funny how people take these things. Seems to happen over and over.

[mvp 78]

Not really DD's fault that Kimbrel picked such a bad time to suck.

 

Kimbrel in 2023 might be a different story.

 

He did find luck with Joe Kelly picking a good time not to suck.

[mvp 78]

Funny how people take these things. Seems to happen over and over.

 

If Bloom stayed, does it make it easier or harder to find a CBO?

[Bellhorn04]

If Bloom stayed, does it make it easier or harder to find a CBO?

 

No idea.

[Old Red]

And Click left Houston after they offered him a one-year extension. Seems he took that as a slap in the face too...

 

I guess some of these baseball executive folks are just really sensitive!

 

Sensitive might be to strong a word on here.

[Old Red]

If Bloom stayed, does it make it easier or harder to find a CBO?

 

Did I miss something? Did Bloom not get fired? Now if you mean if he had gotten demoted like Ben did I would have said the circumstances, and the outcome would have been the same.

[Bellhorn04]

Did I miss something? Did Bloom not get fired? Now if you mean if he had gotten demoted like Ben did I would have said the circumstances, and the outcome would have been the same.

 

mvp says Bloom was offered another position in the organization.

 

Oh no, someone else who took things the wrong way.

[Old Red]

And Henry also offered Bloom an alternate role within the Sox org...

 

Reported by who?

[Old Red]

So much that they relied on starters during the 2018 playoff run to fill in the bullpen holes and couldn't rely on their closer.

 

Yes Kimbrel wore down at the end, but the point being DD traded for Kimbrel to shore up the BP, which he did do for the most part. 100 saves in 3 years, and 42 in 2018 did shore the BP up.

[sk7326]

Firing vs resigning is really a matter of corporatespeak now - it's always reported as parting ways. Ultimately Epstein was the only guy (and I'm not even sure there) whose departure ownership was not okay with happening.

[moonslav59]

It's fact that Epstein was gone after 2011, Cherington after 2015, Dombrowski after 2019 and Bloom after 2023. To me it's a strange pattern, especially when we're talking about the franchise that has won the most championships this century. If you don't see it that way, that's fine.

 

Don't see it like what?

 

Yes, there is a pattern, but each had their own unique set of circumstances with maybe Ben & Bloom being the only real similar ones.

 

Just because there has been a very defined pattern of 4 year changes, does not mean the cause is JH's volatility.

 

If you think it is, fine. I saw nothing volatile with Theo leaving. it seemed like a natural progression for a successful GM to go where he was given more power.

 

I think ben should have been given one more year, but certainly the 3 last place finishes in 4 years was enough to not call bringing in DD brash or volatile.

 

DD's departure seems like the outlier. One bad year does not cause a change, but it was obvious there was serious friction. Was the friction a direct result of JH's volatility? I don't think so. I think there was a major disagreement in the direction the team wanted to go and where DD felt it should be going. The major friction seemed to be between Sam and DD, not with JH. Had JH fired Sam, would that have made him less "volatile?"

 

The Bloom firing was easily understandable and reasonable. It was not the result of a volatile owner, IMO.

 

Have there been shifts in overall team philosophies under JH? I'd say yes. IMO, there were 2-3. The obvious 2 were after Ben and after DD. A third one might be harder to pinpoint, as it did seem we always gave the perception we were legit contenders going into every season. (I would argue that perhaps going into 2013 was the lowest expectations from 2003 through 2019.)

 

I have talked about JH's cycle of spending big, resetting, and repeating as a patter. The Sox have gone more than 1 year under the tax line, several times. We are not the only team that has done that. I don't think that is reason to claim volatility.

 

Yes, 4 GMs in 16 years is a lot of change. I just wouldn't blame it on JH or the belief that he has been volatile.

[moonslav59]

I will disagree about 2013. Going from Bobby V to a functional human being as manger combined with simply our good players staying healthy I thought put the roster at least on the Wild Card map ... the free agents we brought in all worked out, but you look at the caliber of returning players on the 2013 team compared to 2021 and it's not trivial.

 

Injuries and unexpected performance are common reasons for things to happen or not happen - but we all know that. All a GM can do is put out a product where the median outcomes set the team up for success.

 

Now, what is funny is that I am optimistic about the future - particularly with the young position players in the system and the future roster. What Bloom did might very well bear fruit. But the team - the bleeping Boston Red Sox - did not have to wander through a hopeless malaise either in the interim. We don't have to imagine the world where the Red Sox could turn over positions on the fly - it happened between 2004 and 2007.

 

I did not see Dewmpster as being enough for the staff.

 

Vic and Napoli looked like good signings, but nobody expected what they gave us. Uehara was our third strin closer.

 

Personally, I did not think we had a real chance in 2013, or at least the worst chance between 2002 and 2020. Least does not mean no chance.

 

While Valentine season looked awful, on paper, I don't think many felt we had no chance going into the season. We had Lester, Beckett, Buch, Dice-K and Doubront in the rotation and still had Papi, Jake, AGon, Pedey, Youk and Crawford to start the season.

[moonslav59]

I will disagree about 2013.

 

Be honest. Don't use hindsight.

 

Between 2003 and 2019, what team looked the worst, on paper?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Be honest. Don't use hindsight.

 

Between 2003 and 2019, what team looked the worst, on paper?

 

Whichever year the rotation all wore t-shirts that said, "Who's the ace? Don't look at me; I only act like an ace when I'm (you're) drunk"

[Bellhorn04]

The Bloom firing was easily understandable and reasonable. It was not the result of a volatile owner, IMO.

 

What if Bloom was operating under the guidelines that his job in Years 1-4 was to build the farm and cut payroll, and his job starting in Year 5 would be to shoot for a title? He sure seemed to be acting that way, especially with the lack of spending on the rotation in 2023.

 

There's a lot we don't know, obviously, and that we'll never know.

 

To me it seems odd that if the Sox were supposed to be going for a title in 2023 that the payroll would end in the middle of the pack.

 

Didn't you say something about a "sham"?

 

Was the "sham" understandable and reasonable?

[mvp 78]

Reported by who?

 

It wasn't the guys down at Tuffy's Bar and Grille, so you wouldn't care.

[sk7326]

Be honest. Don't use hindsight.

 

Between 2003 and 2019, what team looked the worst, on paper?

 

2016 because I trusted the good players less.

 

That said ALL of them (and I'll include 2002 who was a good team too) were teams that looked pretty solid on paper. The 2023 team was betting on the third wild card position for any sort of positivity.

Edited November 17, 2023 by sk7326