Craig Breslow hired as Head Of Baseball Operations

[moonslav59]

I don’t like opt-outs at all. They can hold teams hostage like JD did for a couple of years with the Sox. Bogey should have either been signed to a 3 yr, or 6 year contract, and then there is no guessing. Paying JT $6.5M not to play for the Red Sox this year to me is ridiculous too.

 

All three of those opt out contracts worked out well for the Sox.

 

JD was a huge success.

We got another year of control for Bogey at $20M- a steal.

JT was worth the contract + buyout.

 

The one that did not work out too well was Price.

[notin]

If he was given $70M, this winter, it's hard to imagine him not signing a top two tier SP'er, but who knows? With $50M, he'd probably sign two from Flaherty, Lugo & Wacha.

 

 

Really?

 

It’s very easy to imagine him NOT signing two top tier starting pitchers. Those contracts are not risk-free.

[moonslav59]

Really?

 

It’s very easy to imagine him NOT signing two top tier starting pitchers. Those contracts are not risk-free.

 

I said a top two tier SP, not two top tier pitchers.

[notin]

I said a top two tier SP, not two top tier pitchers.

 

I could see it not happening. It’s not hard to envision since the Sox haven’t signed one since Eovaldi in 2018, and their last few contracts with upper echelon starting pitchers have not worked out very well…

[moonslav59]

I could see it not happening. It’s not hard to envision since the Sox haven’t signed one since Eovaldi in 2018, and their last few contracts with upper echelon starting pitchers have not worked out very well…

 

Certainly possible.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

All three of those opt out contracts worked out well for the Sox.

 

JD was a huge success.

We got another year of control for Bogey at $20M- a steal.

JT was worth the contract + buyout.

 

The one that did not work out too well was Price.

 

JD was a huge success in 2018, but his contract also had a huge bearing on the doom of the Bloom Sox. Certainly, there are Red Sox fans who remember hoping JD would opt out twice: 1. so they could keep Mookie (no less than Sam discussed publicly how hard it would be to keep both), and 2. so they could sign Schwarber to DH instead.

 

Either one of those scenarios would have changed Red Sox history -- not necessarily with banners, but with the kind of star power that keeps teams relevant, fans entertained, and maybe even new free agents more interested in Boston...

[notin]

All three of those opt out contracts worked out well for the Sox.

 

JD was a huge success.

We got another year of control for Bogey at $20M- a steal.

JT was worth the contract + buyout.

 

The one that did not work out too well was Price.

 

JD was a huge success? He was a monster in 2018, a scary predator in 2019, some sort of kitten in 2020, and in 2021 and 2022 he was an unwelcome guest that everyone wanted to go but just wouldn’t.

 

The Bogaerts contract was stupid. Why give the $29mill AAV to the older and injured pitcher? Sale was the guy you give the opt out/lower AAV to…

[Bellhorn04]

JD was a huge success? He was a monster in 2018, a scary predator in 2019, some sort of kitten in 2020, and in 2021 and 2022 he was an unwelcome guest that everyone wanted to go but just wouldn’t.

 

That's just wrong about JD's 2021 season (and postseason). Only low baseball IQ bozos would have been complaining about him that year.

[moonslav59]

Yes, JD was a huge success. The fact that by year 5, we were ready to move on does not change his record.

 

He was hardly ever hurt. That alone if a big plus for a Sox player.

 

5 years: 637 games out of 708.

.889 OPS (135 OPS+)

650 PA line:

.292 32 105

.526 SLG- 13th in MLB from '18-'22

13th best OPS

19th best wRC+

31st ISO

 

Man, you guys are tough!

.363 OBP- 27th in MLB '18-'22

[moonslav59]

On Bogey...

 

I did not say other deals were worse or better.

 

The Bogey extension at $20M a year that gave us another year of control was a steal. Yes, I wish there was no opt out and it was for $22M a year x 6, but the one we signed him to was a great one.

[Bellhorn04]

On Bogey...

 

I did not say other deals were worse or better.

 

The Bogey extension at $20M a year that gave us another year of control was a steal. Yes, I wish there was no opt out and it was for $22M a year x 6, but the one we signed him to was a great one.

 

Why do you say "another year of control" - I thought it was a regular 3 year extension after his final arb year.

[notin]

Why do you say "another year of control" - I thought it was a regular 3 year extension after his final arb year.

 

It was. It was actually kind of shocking Bogaerts signed so close to free agency…

[notin]

That's just wrong about JD's 2021 season (and postseason). Only low baseball IQ bozos would have been complaining about him that year.

 

He definitely was taking flak.

 

I will say though, it is surprising he didn’t opt out after a 3.0 fWAR season as a DH…

[moonslav59]

Why do you say "another year of control" - I thought it was a regular 3 year extension after his final arb year.

 

Yes, my bad.

 

Bogey was going to be a FA after the 2019 season.

 

How is getting Bogey at $20M x 3 a bad contract?

 

Just because we wish it was longer and with no opt out doesn't make it a bad deal.

[notin]

Yes, my bad.

 

Bogey was going to be a FA after the 2019 season.

 

How is getting Bogey at $20M x 3 a bad contract?

 

Just because we wish it was longer and with no opt out doesn't make it a bad deal.

 

It only does when you look at the other deal handed out along side it. Why did the injured guy get the long, guaranteed contract? And really, would locking up Bogaerts for 5-6 years have been such a bad move?

[moonslav59]

It only does when you look at the other deal handed out along side it. Why did the injured guy get the long, guaranteed contract? And really, would locking up Bogaerts for 5-6 years have been such a bad move?

 

The Sale deal does not make the Bogey deal look any worse. It makes it look better.

 

I've already said I wish we signed Bogey for more and longer with no opt out, but we got an All Star SS for $20M x 3. There is no way that is a bad deal or even just a decent one. It was great.

 

Sure, I'd rather have given Sale's money to Bogey and Betts, but the Bogey deal was a great one for us.

[notin]

The Sale deal does not make the Bogey deal look any worse. It makes it look better.

 

I've already said I wish we signed Bogey for more and longer with no opt out, but we got an All Star SS for $20M x 3. There is no way that is a bad deal or even just a decent one. It was great.

 

Sure, I'd rather have given Sale's money to Bogey and Betts, but the Bogey deal was a great one for us.

 

I don’t think Bogaerts’ deal was bad. I said earlier he would not have signed it without the opt out. Obviously I’m speaking for him there, but I’m confident. It’s a safe bet Bogaerts’ people were the ones who asked for it.

 

I just think the Sox blew those negotiations as a set by giving the high AAV guaranteed contract to the injured player and going short and cheap with Bogaerts…

[moonslav59]

I don’t think Bogaerts’ deal was bad. I said earlier he would not have signed it without the opt out. Obviously I’m speaking for him there, but I’m confident. It’s a safe bet Bogaerts’ people were the ones who asked for it.

 

I just think the Sox blew those negotiations as a set by giving the high AAV guaranteed contract to the injured player and going short and cheap with Bogaerts…

 

They should have extended Betts before Sale, Bogey and Nate. To me, Bogey was #2 with Nate close behind.

 

We ended up with Bogey until his prime years ended. It was a great deal for the team. Sale, Nate, JD and others have nothing to do with the judging of the deal.

 

11.9 fWAR in 3 years, including the 40% season of 2020 for $60M - minus the 2020 pro-ration.

 

Great deal.

 

To say you "don't think it was bad" is not what I would call it.

[notin]

They should have extended Betts before Sale, Bogey and Nate. To me, Bogey was #2 with Nate close behind.

 

We ended up with Bogey until his prime years ended. It was a great deal for the team. Sale, Nate, JD and others have nothing to do with the judging of the deal.

 

11.9 fWAR in 3 years, including the 40% season of 2020 for $60M - minus the 2020 pro-ration.

 

Great deal.

 

To say you "don't think it was bad" is not what I would call it.

 

That was a response to a previous allegation. Sorry it lacked the f***ing enthusiasm you think it required. Because my failure to paint it all rainbows, smiles, puppies and burps caused you to completely overlook the entire point…

[moonslav59]

That was a response to a previous allegation. Sorry it lacked the f***ing enthusiasm you think it required. Because my failure to paint it all rainbows, smiles, puppies and burps caused you to completely overlook the entire point…

 

No. I got your point from the start. It has nothing to do with enthusiasm. We disagreed and still do.

 

It does not change the fact that the Bogey extension was a good deal for the Sox.

 

$20M x 3 did not keep us from signing Betts, and even if it did, the Sale contract did by more. (I was one of the few who liked the Sale contract, then, so I'm not going to flip and cry about it, now.)

 

The Nate contract plus what we offered Betts would have gotten it done, too. Where does it stop? Every deal sucked, because it wasn't Betts?

 

Not agreeing with your point does not mean I am overlooking it.

 

One can think we should have signed Betts first, but still think the Bogey deal was great. If I had to choose one deal to give up to keep Betts, the Bogey one might be last.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

This has been said before, but the lowball Red Sox tried to lock up Betts at least twice -- each time offering a contract his market value had exceeded -- before they realized he was adamant about getting what he deserved.

 

Once they knew Mookie was serious, they extended Sale and Bogey -- who both accepted lowball Red Sox offers below what they may have earned in free agency. Sale got hurt (and maybe already was), so we'll never know about him, but X certainly did ok for himself last winter.

 

Eovaldi also accepted his first big payday from Dombro -- which, like JD's, was a true market value contract: $17M AAV for a good starter (even though a few posters who still complain about his health forget he is a pitcher).

[notin]

No. I got your point from the start. It has nothing to do with enthusiasm. We disagreed and still do.

 

It does not change the fact that the Bogey extension was a good deal for the Sox.

 

$20M x 3 did not keep us from signing Betts, and even if it did, the Sale contract did by more. (I was one of the few who liked the Sale contract, then, so I'm not going to flip and cry about it, now.)

 

The Nate contract plus what we offered Betts would have gotten it done, too. Where does it stop? Every deal sucked, because it wasn't Betts?

 

Not agreeing with your point does not mean I am overlooking it.

 

One can think we should have signed Betts first, but still think the Bogey deal was great. If I had to choose one deal to give up to keep Betts, the Bogey one might be last.

 

Of course it didn’t keep us from signing Betts; that ship already sailed. DD didn’t sign Bogaerts and Sale until negotiations with Betts already collapsed.

 

 

Also, it still doesn’t look like you got my point. If you got it, what was it?

[notin]

This has been said before, but the lowball Red Sox tried to lock up Betts at least twice -- each time offering a contract his market value had exceeded -- before they realized he was adamant about getting what he deserved.

 

Once they knew Mookie was serious, they extended Sale and Bogey -- who both accepted lowball Red Sox offers below what they may have earned in free agency. Sale got hurt (and maybe already was), so we'll never know about him, but X certainly did ok for himself last winter.

 

Eovaldi also accepted his first big payday from Dombro -- which, like JD's, was a true market value contract: $17M AAV for a good starter (even though a few posters who still complain about his health forget he is a pitcher).

 

So do you think the Sale extension was a good idea and has worked out? Sure, he’s been hurt a lot. But don’t forget - he is a pitcher…

[Bellhorn04]

Of course it didn’t keep us from signing Betts; that ship already sailed. DD didn’t sign Bogaerts and Sale until negotiations with Betts already collapsed.

 

 

Also, it still doesn’t look like you got my point. If you got it, what was it?

 

I get the point you're trying to make. But DD didn't negotiate with Bogey and Sale in tandem. He was dealing with two different agents, and as you have often said, players hire agents for a reason.

[notin]

I get the point you're trying to make. But DD didn't negotiate with Bogey and Sale in tandem. He was dealing with two different agents, and as you have often said, players hire agents for a reason.

 

This is true. I’m not saying the exact terms of the deals could be directly reversed (i.e. Bogaerts get the 5 year $145 mill, deal), but if you’re going with the longer, higher AAV contract, the injured pitcher is provably the wrong target of the two.

 

Obviously Bogaerts being repped by Boras is certainly a factor…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

So do you think the Sale extension was a good idea and has worked out? Sure, he’s been hurt a lot. But don’t forget - he is a pitcher…

 

No, because at the time it looked unnecessary, when he was still under contract for one more year; the Sox gambled that he'd fully recover and be his usual dominant self for an entire season -- which would've made him even more money for a Cy Young ace on the open market.

 

Every pitcher is an injury risk. You can't win if you don't pay them.

[Bellhorn04]

This is true. I’m not saying the exact terms of the deals could be directly reversed (i.e. Bogaerts get the 5 year $145 mill, deal), but if you’re going with the longer, higher AAV contract, the injured pitcher is provably the wrong target of the two.

 

Obviously Bogaerts being repped by Boras is certainly a factor…

 

Boras might have said, opt out after 3 years is mandatory.

 

There's not much point rehashing the Sale extension any more. At the time I thought the numbers were quite reasonable, but like everyone else I was nervous as hell about his health. It turned out to be even more of a nightmare than even the most pessimistic foresaw, I think.

[notin]

No, because at the time it looked unnecessary, when he was still under contract for one more year; the Sox gambled that he'd fully recover and be his usual dominant self for an entire season -- which would've made him even more money for a Cy Young ace on the open market.

 

Every pitcher is an injury risk. You can't win if you don't pay them.

 

Of course that Sale - notoriously underpaid on his first contract - accepted that lowball offer was a very strong indication that he was wagering the opposite of that exact same bet. And he was the guy with all the health answers.

 

 

You do have to pay pitchers, but you don’t have to extend pitchers with chronic health issues. Eovaldi pitched 4 seasons on his contract. 2021 (5.2fWAR) was great. 2020 was a good 9 game sample that could have gone either way. But the other two years, he combined for .7 fWAR. Good contract? He topped 109 IP one time in the 3 actual seasons. If he got injured again in Texas and threw 80 IP, some would miss him, but he would hardly have been the hot topic he was from lots of people who think hindsight is a valid argument…

[Bellhorn04]

I think moon's old theory that TJ surgery was baked right into Sale's extension is a pretty reasonable one. It was all the other injuries that really killed this one.

 

And yet I still hope for 2 more seasons of Sale. (Vesting option would bring him back for 2025.)

[notin]

I think moon's old theory that TJ surgery was baked right into Sale's extension is a pretty reasonable one. It was all the other injuries that really killed this one.

 

And yet I still hope for 2 more seasons of Sale. (Vesting option would bring him back for 2025.)

 

If he has a top 10 Cy Young finish in 2024, his vesting option should cause a complaint.

 

Of course, even without a finish if he has a good, healthy year, Breslow can activate it anyway…