Bloom fired

[Bellhorn04]

So after Kike went to the Dodgers, he started 8 games at shortstop, and they won 7 of them.

 

Sure is a funny game.

[moonslav59]

What prospects did DD have left to trade at that point though? Pretty slim pickings I would think.

 

Well, Beeks was #6, so 5 were better.

 

Chavis was #1, so certainly we did not have any Moncadas left. I wish he had traded Chavis..

 

Mata was #2.

I'm glad he kept #3 Houck and #4 Casas.

 

Later, and before DD departed, Dalbec, Groome, DHern, Duran and Jimenez cracked the soxprospect's top 5.

 

It seems reasonable to think the team made a choice to change direction, even before DD left. Reports are DD nearly traded Betts and Price in 2019, and if you think it's because DD came up with the idea, I'll just have to laugh.

 

It's my opinion, and I think I have some evidence to support my opinion.

 

I also don't think it was Ben's idea to not trade any top prospects, either. Maybe, had they kept him and or Bloom, the plan might have changed in their 5th year, and we'd have seen them make some trades, too.

 

I seriously doubt Ben would have come close to matching DD's moves, so I do think the GM has a major impact on choices made, but I think the overall spending and farm building strategies are set from the top.

[moonslav59]

I know what if, and speculation means, but it has been your take for two years now that JH didn’t want Bloom to trade any top prospects.

 

I have never said it is a known fact. If you knew what "if" meant why go off on me, like I was stating facts?

 

It has always been my opinion, and the fact that I said this years ago and none have been traded since, kind of reinforces my position, not makes it less likely.

[moonslav59]

I agree with you there, but I think it was Cora’s decisions on who played where, and when.

 

I agree. I think it is a rare moment when a GM forces a manager to play one guy over another.

 

He does limit a manager's choices by who he places on the 26.

 

Bloom gave Cora Reyes, Cora chose to keep playing Kike at SS.

 

I also wonder why Cora never even tried Arroyo at SS, when it became clear Kike had the "yips." I know Arroyo is not a good SS, but Kike was as bad as I have ever seen at SS over a 2 month+ span.

[moonslav59]

I know what if, and speculation means, but it has been your take for two years now that JH didn’t want Bloom to trade any top prospects.

 

It might have been Kennedy and the whole group deciding on the strategy, but yes, it is my opinion, it was a team strategy, pan or guideline- whatever you want to call it.

 

Not trading any top prospects for over 5 years is not total proof such a plan or mandate existed. I get that, but it certainly is evidence such a plan might have existed. It's also entirely possible they hired Bloom, because they knew he was the type of GM that would willingly go along with that strategy, as that as basically the strategy TB has used for many years, including the many years Bloom was there. Hiring Bloom is more evidence the plan was started before he got here. The no trades by DD for over a year is added proof. If you don't count Beeks as a top prospect, DD went 2 years with no major prospect trades, and we are now at over 6 years with none made.

 

Saying the choice was made from above, does not mean Bloom was fighting the plan all along and wanted to trade top prospects. There is a chance they said, at some point, if you see a great trade opportunity using top prospects, you can make it, and he never found one, Certainly, that could be the case. That is one reason my position is just an opinion or theory. Knowing Bloom's history with TB, that could have been the case.

 

I found it a bit telling that the stories leaked about trades not made, mostly seemed to be on trading top players for prospects and not the other way around. It's like management admitting they wished he had made more stars for prospects trades than vice versa.

 

Again, just my opinion based on an educated guess- not a stab in the dark.

.

[moonslav59]

So after Kike went to the Dodgers, he started 8 games at shortstop, and they won 7 of them.

 

Sure is a funny game.

 

67 innings at SS: 0 errors w LAD

484 innings at SS: 14 errors w BOS (plus countless non errors)

 

Further proof that Bloom and Cora suck.

 

 

[Old Red]

It might have been Kennedy and the whole group deciding on the strategy, but yes, it is my opinion, it was a team strategy, pan or guideline- whatever you want to call it.

 

Not trading any top prospects for over 5 years is not total proof such a plan or mandate existed. I get that, but it certainly is evidence such a plan might have existed. It's also entirely possible they hired Bloom, because they knew he was the type of GM that would willingly go along with that strategy, as that as basically the strategy TB has used for many years, including the many years Bloom was there. Hiring Bloom is more evidence the plan was started before he got here. The no trades by DD for over a year is added proof. If you don't count Beeks as a top prospect, DD went 2 years with no major prospect trades, and we are now at over 6 years with none made.

 

Saying the choice was made from above, does not mean Bloom was fighting the plan all along and wanted to trade top prospects. There is a chance they said, at some point, if you see a great trade opportunity using top prospects, you can make it, and he never found one, Certainly, that could be the case. That is one reason my position is just an opinion or theory. Knowing Bloom's history with TB, that could have been the case.

 

I found it a bit telling that the stories leaked about trades not made, mostly seemed to be on trading top players for prospects and not the other way around. It's like management admitting they wished he had made more stars for prospects trades than vice versa.

 

Again, just my opinion based on an educated guess- not a stab in the dark.

.

 

I still think not trading any top prospects for 5 years was all Bloom. DD was coming off the WS of 2018, so I wouldn’t count 2019, so that leaves it all on Bloom where I think the decision not to was all on him. I don’t think JH is that much into that part of the operations like he Used to at one time, so to me it’s all Bloom.

[Randy Red Sox]

How about Bello, Casas, and Duran to name just 3. He also resisted trading Devers.

[Old Red]

So after Kike went to the Dodgers, he started 8 games at shortstop, and they won 7 of them.

 

Sure is a funny game.

 

I don’t think the Dodgers won, because Kike was at SS just like they didn’t win games, because Mookie played SS, or 2B.

[Randy Red Sox]

I also don't fault his strategy on drafting the best available player and not just take a pitcher, because we need a few.

 

The problem, IMO, is that he should be trading some for better known young pitchers.

 

He did well getting Whitlock on Rule 5.

 

The Winckowski and Gambrell for Beni trade may work out for our staff, but that is not what I hoped for, either. It's not too late for the next guy to pull that trigger.

 

The rest are ...

 

Pivetta, Schreeiber, Bernardino (not a prospects addition)

Monegro

Drohan

Dobbins

ICoffey

Rogers

Penrod

SenaTroye

Hoppe

BBell

Paez

Cepeda

Duffy

Song

 

More quantity than quality, for sure.

 

Whitlock started well but he has been injured and not that consistent the past 2 seasons.

[notin]

So after Kike went to the Dodgers, he started 8 games at shortstop, and they won 7 of them.

 

Sure is a funny game.

 

So we are using wins and losses as a measure of shortstop defense?

 

In 1983, the Cardinals went 74-80 in games started by Ozzie Smith. They should take away his Gold Glove…

[Randy Red Sox]

The past is the past. Time to look forward but if Henry makes his next hire from with-in the current organization I don't see much changing in the next few years.

[moonslav59]

I still think not trading any top prospects for 5 years was all Bloom. DD was coming off the WS of 2018, so I wouldn’t count 2019, so that leaves it all on Bloom where I think the decision not to was all on him. I don’t think JH is that much into that part of the operations like he Used to at one time, so to me it’s all Bloom.

 

You think DD wanted to trade Betts and Price to LA in 2019?

 

You think the win streak that prevented that trade made DD not want to trade for help at the 2019 deadline?

 

Again, it might not be JH or just JH. It could be mostly Kenney or a group choice, but the fact is no big prospect trade was made by DD in his final 2 years. If you count #6 Beeks for Nate as one, then his final one year.

 

You think DD chose to not only not bring back Kimbrel and Kelly, but also not to replace them, in kind? It seems obvious to me, a strategy change took place before DD even left- on the budget and with trades. It may have been a major source of the friction that caused his departure.

 

You mention 2018 to 2019. Yes, we were coming off a WS season, but we lost Kimbrel and Kelly. You really think DD chose not to trade anyone for a RP'er in the winter prior to 2019? It's what he wanted to do? I see no evidence supporting that opinion.

 

I do think that Bloom is not the wheeling dealing type of GM DD was. I do think he would not chose to trade 15-20 top 20 prospects like DD did. I don't think it was his plan the team adopted, because it looks like the plan started before he got there. Certainly the idea of trading Betts and Price in 2019 signalled a change in direction was already in motion, right?.

[moonslav59]

Whitlock started well but he has been injured and not that consistent the past 2 seasons.

 

Agreed, but he still counts as a good pitcher added by Bloom. Perhaps his misuse is the problem.

 

The guy still has nasty stuff and may return to being a very good pitcher for the remainder of his team friendly deal.

 

He had a hip issue, which is something that strongly affects a pitcher. If he never gets over it, he may never be really good, again.

[notin]

The past is the past. Time to look forward but if Henry makes his next hire from with-in the current organization I don't see much changing in the next few years.

 

So go get someone from the outside like he did with Bloom?

 

Most of the internal people have been around since before Bloom; these are not remnants from his regime…

[notin]

I agree. I think it is a rare moment when a GM forces a manager to play one guy over another.

 

He does limit a manager's choices by who he places on the 26.

 

Bloom gave Cora Reyes, Cora chose to keep playing Kike at SS.

 

I also wonder why Cora never even tried Arroyo at SS, when it became clear Kike had the "yips." I know Arroyo is not a good SS, but Kike was as bad as I have ever seen at SS over a 2 month+ span.

 

Kike didn’t have the yips. He just threw everything s hard as he could and accuracy was never his strong suit…

[Bellhorn04]

So we are using wins and losses as a measure of shortstop defense?

 

In 1983, the Cardinals went 74-80 in games started by Ozzie Smith. They should take away his Gold Glove…

 

Pot calls kettle black!

 

See second post down on this page.

 

https://www.talksox.com/forum/threads/20614-A-Realistic-View-of-2023-Part-II?p=1539710&viewfull=1#post1539710

[moonslav59]

Whitlock started well but he has been injured and not that consistent the past 2 seasons.

 

We can talk about mandates and circumstances all day long, and I get the point about our organization not drafting pitchers in the top rounds as being a problem. That problem has gone on for a long time- long before Bloom. It was the main reason DD traded so many prospects for Sale, Kimbrel, Thornburg and Pomeranz.

 

Bloom did no such thing- for whatever reason.

 

My point is that despite not trading any top prospects higher than Aldo Ramirez (#9) for Schwarber and not drafting any pitchers highly (his fault or not,) he still added:

 

Pivetta

Whitlock

Winckowski

Schreiber

Bernardino

 

His prospect list for pitchers is nothing to brag about, and the most promising ones are mostly far from the bigs:

 

Monegro

Drohan

Dobbins

ICoffey

Rogers

Penrod

SenaTroye

Hoppe

BBell

Paez

Cepeda

Duffy

Song (re-acquired)

 

If we end up trading some of the everyday prospects added by Bloom for a solid SP'er, I'd say he did okay with adding non free agent pitching.

 

Plus, he did not trade Bello, Houck, Crawford, Murphy and some promising prospects like Perales and Wikelman left over from the DD era.

Schreiber

[moonslav59]

Kike didn’t have the yips. He just threw everything s hard as he could and accuracy was never his strong suit…

 

Throwing hard has nothing to do with the "yips."

 

484 innings at SS with the Sox in 2024= 14 errors

685 innings over the rest of his career at SS= 6 errors

 

And, it wasn't just errors, as we both know errors are not the tell all to defense. His metrics at SS were a plus before 2023 and after with LAD.

 

He lost confidence. He had the yips.

 

[Bellhorn04]

Throwing hard has nothing to do with the "yips."

 

484 innings at SS with the Sox in 2024= 14 errors

685 innings over the rest of his career at SS= 6 errors

 

And, it wasn't just errors, as we both know errors are not the tell all to defense. His metrics at SS were a plus before 2023 and after with LAD.

 

He lost confidence. He had the yips.

 

 

Short-term yips, apparently.

[moonslav59]

Short-term yips, apparently.

 

It had to be Cora's influence, or Bloom's. It's always their fault. No excuses.

[Bellhorn04]

It had to be Cora's influence, or Bloom's. It's always their fault. No excuses.

 

Our issues at shortstop this year had a chain of blame.

 

-You can blame Henry for not shelling out to extend Bogaerts.

-Blame Bloom for signing Story with his injury red flag.

-Blame Bloom for not signing Andrus or Iglesias when Story went down, leaving Kike as the #1 option.

-Blame Cora for playing Kike at shortstop too much.

 

It was a team effort.

[Old Red]

It had to be Cora's influence, or Bloom's. It's always their fault. No excuses.

 

It was Bloom’s fault for resigning Kike with a raise at that in the first place. It was Cora’s fault for keeping Kike at SS until he was told not to. It’s not really that hard to see that.

[Old Red]

Our issues at shortstop this year had a chain of blame.

 

-You can blame Henry for not shelling out to extend Bogaerts.

-Blame Bloom for signing Story with his injury red flag.

-Blame Bloom for not signing Andrus or Iglesias when Story went down, leaving Kike as the #1 option.

-Blame Cora for playing Kike at shortstop too much.

 

It was a team effort.

 

Well said, and all easy to see, and understand.

[dgalehouse]

Let's not make Kike Hernandez the fall guy for this season. It's a team game. And this was a poorly constructed team that could never put it all together.

[Old Red]

Let's not make Kike Hernandez the fall guy for this season. It's a team game. And this was a poorly constructed team that could never put it all together.

 

Kike is not any fall guy for the season. Just a bad resigning to begin with, and one of the many things that went wrong. There could be plenty of fall guys from JH down to the players. Take your pick.

[dgalehouse]

Kike is not any fall guy for the season. Just a bad resigning to begin with, and one of the many things that went wrong. There could be plenty of fall guys from JH down to the players. Take your pick.

 

Henry certainly deserves plenty of blame for the team's performance since the parade in 2018. This year the fall guy was Bloom. And Bush. And rightly so.

[Old Red]

Henry certainly deserves plenty of blame for the team's performance since the parade in 2018. This year the fall guy was Bloom. And Bush. And rightly so.

 

Don’t forget Febles.

[dgalehouse]

Don’t forget Febles.

 

Yeah. And the Japanese interpreter.

[Old Red]

Yeah. And the Japanese interpreter.

 

How could I forget that one.