Bloom fired

[Hugh2]

That’s if you need a rebuild in the first place.

 

And who has never needed a rebuild at some point?

[Old Red]

Yes, I know about those reports. You seem to really grab onto any report or quote that fits your narrative.

 

No matter what happened, I can't see how anyone can think trading betts was not an organizational choice made. I tend to believe it was something they knew was going to happen before Bloom was even hired, or pretty soon afterwards.

 

Maybe Kennedy was a naysayer on the trade idea, but for him to call out Bloom for trading him, seemed like passing the buck, to me. (I could be wrong.)

 

I seriously doubt Bloom talked upper management into massive budget cuts from the 2019 ledger. If it is true that Bloom was given free reign to cut the budget anyway he saw fit, and not just for 2020 but beyond, I'm not sure how he could have done it without trading Betts. Nobody wanted Price or half-Price without Betts. (I think only 1 or 2 teams wanted the combo, as it was, or at least enough to make a serious offer.)

 

Nobody wanted Sale and his contract that I know of.

 

Has Bloom traded Bogey and JD, instead of Betts, would the mood of Sox nation been much different?

 

Had he been lucky and found takers for Price and Sale, while keeping Betts, what would the rest of the roster have looked like in 2020 & 2021, when bett's contract was basically the full winter spending budget?

 

I will say, maybe Bloom was the bandwagon driver on trading Betts. I doubt it, but we don't know, but I am 100% certain, it was not his final call.

 

I listen to any, and all reports just like I go to many different venues to see what’s being said.

[Hugh2]

Henry definitely decided they did. It's the only reason you replace DD with a guy from the Rays organization.

 

No, Bloom wasn't hired to "rebuild" he was hired to rebuild the farm while still fielding a competitive team. He did that 1 year here. So he was 25% successful at 50% of his mandate. He did rebuild the farm, but half of that was because he didn't trade away guys, the farm could be even better if he pulled the trigger on some deadline deals so I give him b- on building the farm and a D+ Overall he gets a C. C doesn't cut it on big market team, C doesn't get you into a good college, it gets you into community college.

[moonslav59]

This was Blooms biggest asset and disadvantage.

 

He had a value system attached to guys, and he may have too good at that for his own good. Heres how.

 

If you're the most rational guy in the room, and you have determined that player XYZ is worth $100, and someone else comes in and wants to pay $102 and you stick to your guns, you never get said player. Being too rational is almost a disadvantage. This was Bloom's problem, and it's why I think he never got a Right fielder in 2022. Those of us who defended the JBJ trade did so because at the time we thought it was a precursor to signing a starter to play RF, JBJ was going to be the 4th outfielder to shore up the defense. But Bloom never signed anyone else, because he was outbid on EVERYONE.

 

This is why he couldn't trade Paxton, Eovaldi, JDM, and others in recent years at the deadline. He had unrealistic expectations.

 

The Vasquez trade is actually starting to look like a very very very good trade. Two guys, 12 years of MLB service for 2 months of CV. Because one time he found a team willing to overpay and meet his price.

 

At a certain point you have to be a little irrational if you're going to win the bid and get the guy. That's what Dave D was good at, and it's what the Sox need this offseason if they're going to fix the rotation. Because realistically they need 3 starters, and the place should be burned to the ground if they trade everyone they got to get them. They're going to (or at least should) be filling two of those slots in FA, and that will never happen under Blooms rational value system.

 

I fully agree. His inability to think xyz is worth $100M, but I really want him, so will have to offer $103M, because team B offered $102 was just beyond his reasoning skills. He could not adjust.

 

IMO, he was caught off guard by the shocking inflationary prices of last winter's FAs. He failed to go with the flow and just pull the trigger on someone he really wanted, except for, of course, Yoshida, who apparently was the scouts' wet dream for years.

 

[Old Red]

Henry definitely decided they did. It's the only reason you replace DD with a guy from the Rays organization.

 

That just proves what I’ve been saying for two years now that JH is not the same guy today as he was when he first bought the Red Sox 20 years ago. That JH I believe would have locked up Mookie no matter what it would have taken.

[Old Red]

No, Bloom wasn't hired to "rebuild" he was hired to rebuild the farm while still fielding a competitive team. He did that 1 year here. So he was 25% successful at 50% of his mandate. He did rebuild the farm, but half of that was because he didn't trade away guys, the farm could be even better if he pulled the trigger on some deadline deals so I give him b- on building the farm and a D+ Overall he gets a C. C doesn't cut it on big market team, C doesn't get you into a good college, it gets you into community college.

 

Well written. Still fielding a competitive team was, and is the #1 priority. Playing in October, and not watching from the sidelines in last place, and that was why Bloom was fired beyond everything else, because he couldn’t field a competitive team here, and now.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Old Red

[Hugh2]

That just proves what I’ve been saying for two years now that JH is not the same guy today as he was when he first bought the Red Sox 20 years ago. That JH I believe would have locked up Mookie no matter what it would have taken.

 

Yes, which is why Henry is on the hot seat now.

 

Did he fire Bloom to make him a scape goat, only to hire someone else who will "continue the work"

 

or

 

Did he fire Bloom because he learned the error of his ways and he has grown his balls back and he wants a guy who is going to make those big moves.

 

Who he hires, and the decisions that person makes this offseason will answer that question.

[moonslav59]

I'm not ignoring the smoke, I'm questioning the timing and the spin.

 

Henry very well could have instructed Bloom to trade Betts, or gave Bloom a no when he conveyed Betts price tag. That doesn't make it a lie when they say "yeah, he traded away Mookie Betts"

 

I don't not believe these stories, I disbelieve that Henry and Co were in the dark and not on board with them, and to some extent may have even instructed them to happen. Bloom had his disadvantages and it may have been his time to go regardless, but this reeks of a smear campaign with the FO throwing him under the bus. As if they want to wash their hands clean of the last 4 years and say NONE of it was on them. That's BS.

 

If Bloom came to Henry and said I want to up our offer to Betts, and JH said no, what other options did Bloom have?

 

Do people wish he'd have gotten a comp pick for him, instead of Dugo & Wong?

 

This seems like the most plausible scenario, to me. You stated it, perfectly.

[moonslav59]

Exactly, I'm getting angry all over again about how they threw TITO under the bus and smeared his name.

 

Think about it: they smeared Tito.

 

Why is it so hard for anyone to not see what is happening, again.

[notin]

That’s if you need a rebuild in the first place.

 

They had a $240 mill 84 win team with $300mill ties up in 3 oft-injured pitchers for 11 seasons. With 10 of those seasons in the books, only once did the pitcher to 110 IP.

 

I can see a the logic behind a rebuild…

[Bellhorn04]

No, Bloom wasn't hired to "rebuild" he was hired to rebuild the farm while still fielding a competitive team. He did that 1 year here. So he was 25% successful at 50% of his mandate. He did rebuild the farm, but half of that was because he didn't trade away guys, the farm could be even better if he pulled the trigger on some deadline deals so I give him b- on building the farm and a D+ Overall he gets a C. C doesn't cut it on big market team, C doesn't get you into a good college, it gets you into community college.

 

I don't think it's quite that simple, because we don't really know what discussions went on between ownership and Bloom, and we don't really know how restricted he was with the budget. Dropping to middle of the pack in payroll this year was a big deal IMO. How do you square that up with being fully committed to "results now"?

Edited September 15, 2023 by Bellhorn04

[Bellhorn04]

That just proves what I’ve been saying for two years now that JH is not the same guy today as he was when he first bought the Red Sox 20 years ago. That JH I believe would have locked up Mookie no matter what it would have taken.

 

Hard to say. These guys have been capable of being pricks to the talent from the get-go. They put Manny on waivers, remember?

[moonslav59]

I listen to any, and all reports just like I go to many different venues to see what’s being said.

 

I don't doubt that, and you tell us that over and over.

 

You usually only quote the ones you agree with.

 

Do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, that Bloom acted mostly on his own to not only make the trade, but to convince upper brass to ooaky it, because you have to believe they needed to okay the deal, right?

[Old Red]

Yes, which is why Henry is on the hot seat now.

 

Did he fire Bloom to make him a scape goat, only to hire someone else who will "continue the work"

 

or

 

Did he fire Bloom because he learned the error of his ways and he has grown his balls back and he wants a guy who is going to make those big moves.

 

Who he hires, and the decisions that person makes this offseason will answer that question.

It took 4 years, but JH righted his wrong in hiring Bloom, but that doesn’t make it any less of a blame on JH I don’t believe out in the Nation.

[Bellhorn04]

Hard to say. These guys have been capable of being pricks to the talent from the get-go. They put Manny on waivers, remember?

 

Another thing is Henry and Werner have always been "line in the sand" guys. When they had the trade for A-Rod almost done the deal was rejected by the Players Association, but when it was re-worked the Sox only had to pay another $12 mill or so to get it done. But they said "No, f*** you," and the rest is history - lucky history for us as it turned out.

 

But I think it was the "line in the sand" approach that led to trading Mookie.

[Hugh2]

Think about it: they smeared Tito.

 

Why is it so hard for anyone to not see what is happening, again.

 

Because it's easy because people dislike Bloom so much.

 

IT AIN'T A ZERO SUM GAME FOLKS!!!!

 

It can both be true that Bloom failed in his mandate here AND the front office is instituting a smear campaign to wash all the blood of their hands. As if it was all Bloom and not them.

 

These things can both be true, and as a matter of fact, I think it's blatantly obvious it is.

 

The real question should be......"did you learn you lesson John Henry"????

[sk7326]

No it isn’t.

 

The story said after the bike accident. That puts it in late 2022.

 

When was the last time Sale was pitching like a highly talented pitcher? 2018? Early 2019? At that time, Sale had pitched 47 IP in the last 3 years.

 

He’s off the radar. On this board, Sale is considered “unreliable.” Why is it we assess him that way but think people who have to actually pay him don’t think he’s that way?

 

Also - buying him for next to nothing? He will cost them $55mill. That’s not “next to nothing.” I’m not so sure GMs view deals for “only money” the same west fans do.

 

I’m calling this whole thing ********. It’s not believable in any level…

 

I think it's believable - but I also don't think the characterization of the talks make a ton of sense.

 

Would it make sense for - let's use the Dodgers or Cardinals just for fun - to look at Sale and see a buy low opportunity? Yes.

Would such a team trade a highly rated prospect for the privelege? No.

Would it make sense for Bloom to prefer to fix a distressed asset? Yes.

 

I mean the reporting makes it seem scandalous - but you never know how serious the discussions ever got.

[Old Red]

I don't doubt that, and you tell us that over and over.

 

You usually only quote the ones you agree with.

 

Do you really believe, in your heart of hearts, that Bloom acted mostly on his own to not only make the trade, but to convince upper brass to ooaky it, because you have to believe they needed to okay the deal, right?

 

I’ll answer that like this. I believe if Mookie didn’t get signed by DD then he wasn’t going to get resigned in Boston.

[Bellhorn04]

I think it's quite possible the Story and Yoshida contracts had a lot to do with this, just like Pablo and Hanley and Castillo probably sealed Ben's fate, and Price and Sale may have sealed DD's.

[moonslav59]

I don't think it's quite that simple, because we don't really know what discussions went on between ownership and Bloom, and we don't really know how restricted he was with the budget. Dropping to middle of the pack in payroll this year was a big deal IMO. How do you square that up with being fully committed to "results now"?

 

I'm not sure people fully realize how much the budget was slashed from 2019 to 2020. The Nate, Bogey and Sale extensions made before Bloom, made the drop off look smaller, but we were bringing back the same (or lesser) players at higher salaries.

 

Gone from 2019:

 

$31M Price (although we paid $16M for nothing)

$21M Porcello (not replaced, at all.)

$20M Betts (with a big arb raise pending)

($13.8M Pedey was deadwood)

$6.2M Pearce

$5M Nunez

This was after we did not replace Kimbrell & Kelly from 2018's team, and then Sale was hurt and ERod missed 2020.)

 

Sale's AAV went to $25.6M

Bogey's to $20M

Nate's to $17M

Pedey's stayed at $13.8M

 

How did we replace that $80M+ lost?

Some arb raises

$6.5M/1 Perez

$4.3M/1 Pillar

$3.0M/1 Moreland (brought back)

$2.9M Peraza

$1.5M Lucroy

A bunch of scrubs at or near the ML minimum. This totals $18M, which isn't even clse to what betts got for an AAV.

[Old Red]

I think it's quite possible the Story and Yoshida contracts had a lot to do with this, just like Pablo and Hanley and Castillo probably sealed Ben's fate, and Price and Sale may have sealed DD's.

 

If Story doesn’t come back, and hit next year that’s 4 more years on that contract. Yoshida is not a bust, but he’s no $100M man either. Both party gifts by Bloom.

[Hugh2]

If Story doesn’t come back, and hit next year that’s 4 more years on that contract. Yoshida is not a bust, but he’s no $100M man either. Both party gifts by Bloom.

 

How often does a free agent signing, especially the big ones, ever return exact value or more?

 

The trick is to not get completely screwed. The Story isn't out yet on Yoshida, or Story if he can stay healthy. Next year will be very telling. Can Yoshida improve in his Sophmore campaign? with his Elbow healed can Story be the player he was before Boston for a few seasons?

 

If the answer to those questions are yes, then it makes Blooms replacement job simple, maybe not easy but simple. Pitching, pitching, pitching, and more pitching.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not sure people fully realize how much the budget was slashed from 2019 to 2020. The Nate, Bogey and Sale extensions made before Bloom, made the drop off look smaller, but we were bringing back the same (or lesser) players at higher salaries.

 

Gone from 2019:

 

$31M Price (although we paid $16M for nothing)

$21M Porcello (not replaced, at all.)

$20M Betts (with a big arb raise pending)

($13.8M Pedey was deadwood)

$6.2M Pearce

$5M Nunez

This was after we did not replace Kimbrell & Kelly from 2018's team, and then Sale was hurt and ERod missed 2020.)

 

Sale's AAV went to $25.6M

Bogey's to $20M

Nate's to $17M

Pedey's stayed at $13.8M

 

How did we replace that $80M+ lost?

Some arb raises

$6.5M/1 Perez

$4.3M/1 Pillar

$3.0M/1 Moreland (brought back)

$2.9M Peraza

$1.5M Lucroy

A bunch of scrubs at or near the ML minimum. This totals $18M, which isn't even clse to what betts got for an AAV.

 

I don't disagree, but to me the question right now is, did Henry order the 2023 payroll to be what it was, mid-pack in the game? What was the thinking behind that if they were really anxious to get back into contention this year, knowing what a tough division we were in? Something just doesn't make sense.

[Hugh2]

Edit. STarting pitching.

[Bellhorn04]

Maybe Henry had already given up on the Bloom experiment after 2022 and was semi-hoping for a s***** 2023 to justify canning him.

[Old Red]

Maybe Henry had already given up on the Bloom experiment after 2022 and was semi-hoping for a s***** 2023 to justify canning him.

 

You mean the standing ovations both got at last winter’s meet, and greet didn’t change his mind.

[moonslav59]

I’ll answer that like this. I believe if Mookie didn’t get signed by DD then he wasn’t going to get resigned in Boston.

 

So, why do you continually try to paint Bloom as the main guy on the Betts trade decision?

[moonslav59]

I don't disagree, but to me the question right now is, did Henry order the 2023 payroll to be what it was, mid-pack in the game? What was the thinking behind that if they were really anxious to get back into contention this year, knowing what a tough division we were in? Something just doesn't make sense.

 

This last winter choices and budget is a complete mystery to me.

 

The 2020 one seems more concrete and easier to understand.

 

Also, regardless of why the budget ended up where it was, Bloom still had enough to do better than he did.

 

BTW, let's wait and see what the final tax budget was, before saying we underspent bya whole lot.

[Elktonnick]

Maybe Henry had already given up on the Bloom experiment after 2022 and was semi-hoping for a s***** 2023 to justify canning him.

I said before and I say again Henry planned to fire Bloom the day he hired him

Henry fires his HBO every 4 years because that is what Henry does. Win a World Series or not 4 years and you're gone.

[Hugh2]

I said before and I say again Henry planned to fire Bloom the day he hired him

Henry fires his HBO every 4 years because that is what Henry does. Win a World Series or not 4 years and you're gone.

 

Doesn't exactly promote a selling point when looking to hire someone new.

 

There's value in continuity, I'm hoping it hasn't been broken to the point that the Sox can't get and retain talent.