Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[notin]

There's been much less reported about Xander extensions and what happened after he went to FA than the Mookie situation. There's even MORE speculation there than we'd like to admit.

 

In both cases, it simply comes down to which side you want to believe...

[moonslav59]

Mookie said he didn't get 300M. Why didn't the people with the original sources refute?

 

Is the fact they did not 100% proof there was never even a verbal $300M offer or framework to start talking?

[mvp 78]

Sale.

 

He had not been one for a while, but maybe Bloom still thought he had something left in him. It looks like Atlanta still feels that way...

 

Sale hasn't been an ace since 2018. ATL does NOT think he's an ace at all.

[mvp 78]

Why bother? It changes nothing, except maybe message board banter.

 

And I don't know why Mookie asked to talk to Bloom when that offer was reportedly in 2020 when Dombrowski was still running the show...

 

Why bother? It's their f***ing job to ask those questions! It's their only purpose in life! Why else do they show up at the ballpark except to ask questions?

[mvp 78]

How do you know they never did?

 

If they never did, then they were set on a number they knew was too far away.

 

We can say that was a wrong position to take, or not.

 

I'd have floated another year plus $20-30M, at minimum, but maybe even that was beyond their range.

 

With so much of this unknown, especially just "talks," it's hard to take a firm stance on any position.

 

If you think Betts was worth $375-400M, then I'd say you can take a firm position the Sox blew it, but that's your opinion. (BTW, I suggested we offer $400M/14.)

 

If you start getting to the $325-370M range, there are just too many moving parts to hold any firm stance, IMO.

 

Why we never even tried $310-320M is beyond me, but maybe we did- as a verbally framework offer.

 

 

You see all the ******** that Henry is putting you through and yet you still want to make excuses for him somehow.

[mvp 78]

In both cases, it simply comes down to which side you want to believe...

 

^ John Henry fanboy I guess?

[notin]

Why bother? It's their f***ing job to ask those questions! It's their only purpose in life! Why else do they show up at the ballpark except to ask questions?

 

I was referring to the people who answer questions, not ask them...

[mvp 78]

I was referring to the people who answer questions, not ask them...

 

But we never got a note about "we asked FO about Mookie's comments and they didn't want to discuss." Mookie's comments just hung out there and nothing...

[notin]

^ John Henry fanboy I guess?

 

Or a guy who simply acknowledges that I'm not an insider and the picture that gets painted for us might not always be the whole truth. I think players can be just as incomplete and dishonest with reporters as team officers can be...

[notin]

But we never got a note about "we asked FO about Mookie's comments and they didn't want to discuss." Mookie's comments just hung out there and nothing...

 

And that is on the Red Sox?

 

I mean, if there was even a "We asked O'Halloran and/or Kennedy and they said 'no comment'", it would at least lend a little more credence to Mookie's story...

[mvp 78]

@tylermilliken_

According to @mikemayer22, the Red Sox have signed reliever Michael Fulmer.

 

He posted a 4.42 ERA/4.15 FIP in 57 IP last season for the Cubs, but will miss all of 2024 after undergoing UCL revision surgery on his right elbow.

 

Might be the reliever form of the James Paxton deal.

 

@ChrisCotillo

Per MLB transactions log, Red Sox have signed Michael Fulmer to a minor league deal. He had UCL revision surgery in March so likely out all of 2024. Bet that’s a 2-year minor league deal.

 

All-Star in 2017.

 

@ChrisCotillo

Michael Fulmer gets a 2 yr minor league deal with $1.5m major league salary in both years, per source. Incentives max out at $2m in 2025.

[mvp 78]

Or a guy who simply acknowledges that I'm not an insider and the picture that gets painted for us might not always be the whole truth. I think players can be just as incomplete and dishonest with reporters as team officers can be...

 

None of us are insiders. It's easy to say "the Sox didn't counter offer" because it was never reported. It's easy to say "the Sox could have tried to offer more money since Mookie signed an extension prior to hitting FA." There were so many posters who wrote crap about Mookie's mom and COVID and Mookie being greedy and Mookie not really liking Boston just as a way for themselves to cope with Mookie leaving. At least posters that say "the Sox should have tried harder to counter" actually live in the real world.

[notin]

@ChrisCotillo

Michael Fulmer gets a 2 yr minor league deal with $1.5m major league salary in both years, per source. Incentives max out at $2m in 2025.

 

Per MLBTR, the Sox have also added 28yo utility infielder Joe Dunand and 29yo RHP Melvin Adon on minor league deals. These should both be about as impactful as Guthrie. Fulmer might be acceptable in 2025, but there are plenty of reasons to doubt that as well...

[mvp 78]

And that is on the Red Sox?

 

I mean, if there was even a "We asked O'Halloran and/or Kennedy and they said 'no comment'", it would at least lend a little more credence to Mookie's story...

 

No, it's on the reporters for not asking. Like, what?

 

The Red Sox are wrong for letting Mookie go because they chose not to faithfully negotiate. The Sox beat reporters are wrong because they heard Mookie say "they never offered me 300M. Go ask Bloom." and never thought ask a follow up to anyone else. I'm allowed to be annoyed at a whole host of individuals.

[mvp 78]

Per MLBTR, the Sox have also added 28yo utility infielder Joe Dunand and 29yo RHP Melvin Adon on minor league deals. These should both be about as impactful as Guthrie. Fulmer might be acceptable in 2025, but there are plenty of reasons to doubt that as well...

 

Dunand is ARod's nephew that they signed last week.

[notin]

None of us are insiders. It's easy to say "the Sox didn't counter offer" because it was never reported. It's easy to say "the Sox could have tried to offer more money since Mookie signed an extension prior to hitting FA." There were so many posters who wrote crap about Mookie's mom and COVID and Mookie being greedy and Mookie not really liking Boston just as a way for themselves to cope with Mookie leaving. At least posters that say "the Sox should have tried harder to counter" actually live in the real world.

 

I have repeatedly said it never should have gone on that long without an extension.

 

But I can't pretend I know how everything went down because I don't even know how these teams negotiate, so I keep open to all possibilities.

 

Hell, I don't even know the negotiation process. How much of it is Mookie even involved in? Is it possible some informal numbers get thrown around and he is unaware? He can't be on every phone call with his agent and the Sox, can he? Is it actually possible everyone is telling the truth here?

 

And since I don't know, I can't simply blame one side or another, but rather simply acknowledge that both sides never came to an agreement and that can be on either side or both...

[Bellhorn04]

I'm really not sure they were ever serious about bringing Bogey back, unless it was at a lower than market value cost. It's just my opinion. The lack of reported offers made over the years makes me wonder.

 

It wasn't always a slam dunk that he would opt out after 3 years. Anything could have happened.

[notin]

No, it's on the reporters for not asking. Like, what?

 

The Red Sox are wrong for letting Mookie go because they chose not to faithfully negotiate. The Sox beat reporters are wrong because they heard Mookie say "they never offered me 300M. Go ask Bloom." and never thought ask a follow up to anyone else. I'm allowed to be annoyed at a whole host of individuals.

 

I don't get the lack of follow up on that, either. The press never asking is the oddest part, since it's fairly common to report one side refused to comment in any journalistic endeavor. So either they were negligent or did not feel the answer told the story they wanted to tell. But if it's the latter, that feels like a loss of objectivity...

[notin]

Sale hasn't been an ace since 2018. ATL does NOT think he's an ace at all.

 

Even if the consensus is Sale will never be an ace again, at what point does an MLB starting pitcher become more important than a compensation draft pick? Ace or not, a reasonably healthy Sale was still one of the better options in what has clearly been the Sox biggest weakness in the past two seasons...

[notin]

It wasn't always a slam dunk that he would opt out after 3 years. Anything could have happened.

 

It felt like it was an obvious slam dunk, but the thing is, him never signing that deal in the first place when he was one season away from free agency also felt like a slam dunk. If a 29yo Xander Bogaerts is worth $280mill for 11 years, what is 26yo Bogaerts worth in free agency?

[mvp 78]

I don't get the lack of follow up on that, either. The press never asking is the oddest part, since it's fairly common to report one side refused to comment in any journalistic endeavor. So either they were negligent or did not feel the answer told the story they wanted to tell. But if it's the latter, that feels like a loss of objectivity...

 

They have a really tough job. Rushing to the ballpark to get to their seats to watch batting practice. Mingling about after the game for a few quotes. Heading to a hotel to write 500 words about how the Sox lost 2 out of 3 in Oakland.

 

From their twitter feeds, it seems like their biggest concern is stadium food.

[mvp 78]

It felt like it was an obvious slam dunk, but the thing is, him never signing that deal in the first place when he was one season away from free agency also felt like a slam dunk. If a 29yo Xander Bogaerts is worth $280mill for 11 years, what is 26yo Bogaerts worth in free agency?

 

Less than 280M because the market wasn't there yet and the Padres overpaid.

[notin]

They have a really tough job. Rushing to the ballpark to get to their seats to watch batting practice. Mingling about after the game for a few quotes. Heading to a hotel to write 500 words about how the Sox lost 2 out of 3 in Oakland.

 

From their twitter feeds, it seems like their biggest concern is stadium food.

 

You left out the part about getting reimbursed for parking...

[Hitch]

I don't disagree. One thing that makes me wonder is that while most here wanted us to be buyers at the deadline, and it seems the upper brass was more upset about Bloom being indecisive on selling pieces like Sale & JT.

 

Personally, I thought we should have fire-saled in 2022 and tried to get Monty in '23. I'm probably in a minority.

The board seems split, and maybe the 17 Sox VPs were indecisive, too.

 

I was definitely on the sale side of things. We should have turned JD, Bogey, Paxton and the others (such as Sale if to be believed) into some very decent pieces in our organisation which we'd be utilising right now. I do think Bloom got a good amount of things right, but we had the chance to cash in twice on a team that was going nowhere. And that's without the f*** up of leaving us slightly over on the luxury tax, moving our compensatory pick back. So frustrating.

[moonslav59]

You see all the ******** that Henry is putting you through and yet you still want to make excuses for him somehow.

 

I'm not sure how you read that as an excuse. I laid out what I think people's stances are, based on what they think Betts was worth.

 

I mentioned not having enough information to take a firm stance. How is that making an excuse for any body?

 

Personally, I'd have given him $400M, but if JH thought that was too much, so be it. I disagree. I don't like it, but nowhere am I taking JH off the hook for losing Betts.

 

Not many here suggested we give him $400M. I did.

[notin]

Less than 280M because the market wasn't there yet and the Padres overpaid.

 

Maybe.

 

But at two years older, Anthony Rendon got 7 years $245mill that offseason, giving him an AAV nearly $10mill higher than Xander got. And the SS market was absolutely barren, with the largest contract being the one year $14mill contract Didi Grigorious signed...

[mvp 78]

You left out the part about getting reimbursed for parking...

 

They get paid to write about A KID'S GAME!!!!!!!! +1 Crackerjack

[Bellhorn04]

It felt like it was an obvious slam dunk, but the thing is, him never signing that deal in the first place when he was one season away from free agency also felt like a slam dunk. If a 29yo Xander Bogaerts is worth $280mill for 11 years, what is 26yo Bogaerts worth in free agency?

 

I love Xander, but that contract he got from San Diego was so inflated it could have floated like the Goodyear blimp...

[mvp 78]

I was definitely on the sale side of things. We should have turned JD, Bogey, Paxton and the others (such as Sale if to be believed) into some very decent pieces in our organisation which we'd be utilising right now. I do think Bloom got a good amount of things right, but we had the chance to cash in twice on a team that was going nowhere. And that's without the f*** up of leaving us slightly over on the luxury tax, moving our compensatory pick back. So frustrating.

 

They were in a clear rebuild. They should have dealt everyone in '22. Why keep holding onto these guys year to year. Let them all go.

[moonslav59]

None of us are insiders. It's easy to say "the Sox didn't counter offer" because it was never reported. It's easy to say "the Sox could have tried to offer more money since Mookie signed an extension prior to hitting FA." There were so many posters who wrote crap about Mookie's mom and COVID and Mookie being greedy and Mookie not really liking Boston just as a way for themselves to cope with Mookie leaving. At least posters that say "the Sox should have tried harder to counter" actually live in the real world.

 

When you don't know "how hard they tried," how is it real world to say they should have tried harder?

 

IMO, they did not try "hard enough" and should have "tried harder," but I know it is just an opinion- not fact.