Red Sox: Off Season '23-'24

[notin]

Sure. Of course a lot of the fans at any particular game are season ticket holders, non-STH hardcore types who attend a lot of games, and tourists who buy their tickets based on when they're in town.

 

One question that spins out of this is whether teams that win the title tend to have big stars or not. My guess is they usually do. Red Sox champs of this century certainly did.

 

Texas had plenty of stars, but two of the biggest - deGrom, Scherzer - missed big chunks of the postseason. Meanwhile, vastly underrated Jordan Montgomery showed up. Seager and Semien were great, but so were household names Jonah Heim, Adolis Garcia, Josh Jung and Nate Lowe…

[Bellhorn04]

Texas had plenty of stars, but two of the biggest - deGrom, Scherzer - missed big chunks of the postseason. Meanwhile, vastly underrated Jordan Montgomery showed up. Seager and Semien were great, but so were household names Jonah Heim, Adolis Garcia, Josh Jung and Nate Lowe…

 

Don't forget the other Nate.

[notin]

Don't forget the other Nate.

 

 

Also not really someone most fans think of as a star player…

[Old Red]

Texas had plenty of stars, but two of the biggest - deGrom, Scherzer - missed big chunks of the postseason. Meanwhile, vastly underrated Jordan Montgomery showed up. Seager and Semien were great, but so were household names Jonah Heim, Adolis Garcia, Josh Jung and Nate Lowe…

 

Homegrown stars to me make more of a difference to me when following a team when you have followed guys from the farm We’ve heard about Mayer for 3 years, and if he lives up to all the hype that’s even better. I hold Yaz, Rice, Lynn, and Pudge in a higher regard than Manny, and Ortiz even though Manny, and Ortiz won a WS, and the others didn’t.

[Bellhorn04]

Also not really someone most fans think of as a star player…

 

Debatable. His last 2 contracts have added up to 120 mill for 7 years, which isn't chump change. He's arguably a guy with star-level talent, whose only downside is the obvious one.

[jad]

Also not really someone most fans think of as a star player…

 

David Ortiz was quite vocal about disagreeing with you.

[notin]

Homegrown stars to me make more of a difference to me when following a team when you have followed guys from the farm We’ve heard about Mayer for 3 years, and if he lives up to all the hype that’s even better. I hold Yaz, Rice, Lynn, and Pudge in a higher regard than Manny, and Ortiz even though Manny, and Ortiz won a WS, and the others didn’t.

 

A confusing response because you criticized Bloom from Day One, despite knowing his marching orders involved bringing up homegrown players, and repeatedly praise Dombrowski, who brought in his share of ringers…

[jad]

I think there's a distinction here: Of course star players do not NECESSARILY make a team successful. I'm only talking about what fans want to see (like the movies: a bad movie with Marlon Brando is better than a better movie without him, as far as entertainment goes.). As kids, we also latch on to individual players (usually, although not always, stars--my fave was Jerry Casale!)

 

As for me 'trading my fandom' to LAD--in part, yes: I will watch LAD and SD games in preference to RS at times simply because I am familiar with the players (I admit I spend much of the winter in LA).

[notin]

David Ortiz was quite vocal about disagreeing with you.

 

That’s one against. Also I’m thrilled Big Papi knows who I am enough to call me out.

 

Eovaldi has been in MLB for 13 years, had only once received Cy Young votes, and has played in the same number of All Star games as Scott Cooper. I assumed his up-and-down body of work interspersed with injuries kept him from “star” status. But there is no real definition.

 

So would you consider Eovaldi a star player? And what is your definition of a star player, by which I mean someone you are paying to see? Mookie will fit everyone’s definition. Eovaldi? Maybe not…

[notin]

I think there's a distinction here: Of course star players do not NECESSARILY make a team successful. I'm only talking about what fans want to see (like the movies: a bad movie with Marlon Brando is better than a better movie without him, as far as entertainment goes.). As kids, we also latch on to individual players (usually, although not always, stars--my fave was Jerry Casale!)

 

As for me 'trading my fandom' to LAD--in part, yes: I will watch LAD and SD games in preference to RS at times simply because I am familiar with the players (I admit I spend much of the winter in LA).

 

And I routinely go to Cubs and White Sox games, largely due to geography. But family members are Cubs’ fans.

 

If we go buy ticket prices, Cubs’ games are always pricey (and terribly inconvenient. You can’t park anywhere near Wrigley for less than $100.). White Sox games are comparatively dirt cheap and have many parking lots right at the stadium. However, it is worth noting that White Sox tickets do get more expensive when the team is winning.

 

Losing team? Sunday game tickets in August/September cost $5-7 dollars a couple years ago. That’s not a typo. FIVE TO SEVEN DOLLARS. Not only less than a movie, but less than a movie popcorn!

 

But only if they were losing…

[Old Red]

A confusing response because you criticized Bloom from Day One, despite knowing his marching orders involved bringing up homegrown players, and repeatedly praise Dombrowski, who brought in his share of ringers…

 

Yes I like homegrown players. Mookie, Bogey, and Raffy still should be the foundation of this team, and that’s what players who are on the farm now should have been added to. How many homegrown players were on the 2018 team? DD added to them, and while I have praised DD for being better than Bloom I have also trashed DD for the Sale ext, and not locking up Bogey, and Mookie.

[Bellhorn04]

That’s one against. Also I’m thrilled Big Papi knows who I am enough to call me out.

 

Eovaldi has been in MLB for 13 years, had only once received Cy Young votes, and has played in the same number of All Star games as Scott Cooper. I assumed his up-and-down body of work interspersed with injuries kept him from “star” status. But there is no real definition.

 

So would you consider Eovaldi a star player? And what is your definition of a star player, by which I mean someone you are paying to see? Mookie will fit everyone’s definition. Eovaldi? Maybe not…

 

We all know the only pitchers fans pay to see are the Aces.

[notin]

Yes I like homegrown players. Mookie, Bogey, and Raffy still should be the foundation of this team, and that’s what players who are on the farm now should have been added to. How many homegrown players were on the 2018 team? DD added to them, and while I have praised DD for being better than Bloom I have also trashed DD for the Sale ext, and not locking up Bogey, and Mookie.

 

The 2018 team had lots of homegrown players that DD inherited. I have my doubts Mookie even wanted to be extended.

 

But one thing lacking was homegrown pitching. A fun trivia question might be “who lead the 2018 Red Sox in IP among pitchers the basic drafted?” It looks like, with 99 IP, former Florida Gator Brian Johnson just might be that guy. (Matt Barnes, with 61, is second.)

[Old Red]

We all know the only pitchers fans pay to see are the Aces.

Who are the aces right now that you would pay to see?

[Old Red]

The 2018 team had lots of homegrown players that DD inherited. I have my doubts Mookie even wanted to be extended.

 

But one thing lacking was homegrown pitching. A fun trivia question might be “who lead the 2018 Red Sox in IP among pitchers the basic drafted?” It looks like, with 99 IP, former Florida Gator Brian Johnson just might be that guy. (Matt Barnes, with 61, is second.)

 

What difference does it make that DD inherited the homegrown talent from the 2018 team. The point was he added to it, and made the team better. The Mookie subject has been beaten to death many times over, and there is still no clear cut answer to any of it.

[notin]

What difference does it make that DD inherited the homegrown talent from the 2018 team. The point was he added to it, and made the team better. The Mookie subject has been beaten to death many times over, and there is still no clear cut answer to any of it.

 

 

It was a simple statement. Don’t bet so offended. It didn’t have any praise or criticism. And contains some trivia I bet you didn’t know. (And I would have never guessed.)

[Old Red]

It was a simple statement. Don’t bet so offended. It didn’t have any praise or criticism. And contains some trivia I bet you didn’t know. (And I would have never guessed.)

 

No i wouldn’t even of thought of BJ. The starting rotation did have some money tied up in it though.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Might not see a lot of kids wearing Eovaldi jerseys, but you can be sure Nate's a star alright with teammates of his three postseason clubs: '18, '21 Sox, '23 Rangers.

 

But kids are relevant in today's discussion, because growing up rooting for favorite players is a big part of baseball fandom, including shirts, posters, cards, autographs, etc.

 

Fans get attached to stars, and some semblance of roster continuity is important, even in the era of free agency. It's obviously not the same as last century, when families were on first-name basis with the same starting line-ups being described on their radios for a decade or more on some clubs (ex: Brooklyn NL mid-1940-50s, Detroit AL 1960s).

 

For the most part, we all want to cheer for teams of players who at least seem like they care about winning as much as we do. And fans definitely care about good groups that fall short or don't even reach the last game of any season. The human element makes us empathetic to our heroes, and in some cases, root even harder for them the next time...

 

... if only the owners pay them what they're worth to keep wearing our laundry.

[notin]

Might not see a lot of kids wearing Eovaldi jerseys, but you can be sure Nate's a star alright with teammates of his three postseason clubs: '18, '21 Sox, '23 Rangers.

 

But kids are relevant in today's discussion, because growing up rooting for favorite players is a big part of baseball fandom, including shirts, posters, cards, autographs, etc.

 

Fans get attached to stars, and some semblance of roster continuity is important, even in the era of free agency. It's obviously not the same as last century, when families were on first-name basis with the same starting line-ups being described on their radios for a decade or more on some clubs (ex: Brooklyn NL mid-1940-50s, Detroit AL 1960s).

 

For the most part, we all want to cheer for teams of players who at least seem like they care about winning as much as we do. And fans definitely care about good groups that fall short or don't even reach the last game of any season. The human element makes us empathetic to our heroes, and in some cases, root even harder for them the next time...

 

... if only the owners pay them what they're worth to keep wearing our laundry.

 

 

I think we get attached to big names in many cases. But also as fans we make up our own. Hence the term “fan favorite.”

 

Brock Holt didn’t exactly seem like he’d be a fan favorite when he was acquired from a Pittsburgh. Pretty sure he was a throw-in in that deal. But Sox fans made him a star! Of course, no one bought tickets with hopes of Brock Holt stating that day.

 

And we still do this. For example, dgalehouse has repeatedly expressed his confidence that Jarren Duran could become a star. I (think I) do see what he sees in Duran. But as recently as 2022, Sean McDonough questioned whether Duran was even a Major Leaguer. Hey, maybe denny is one of the first on that boat…

Edited January 14, 2024 by notin

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I think we get attached to big names in many cases. But also as fans we make up our own. Hence the term “fan favorite.”

 

Brock Holt didn’t exactly seem like he’d be a fan favorite when he was acquired from a Pittsburgh. Pretty sure he was a throw-in in that deal. But Sox fans made him a star! Of course, no one bought tickets with hopes of Brock Holt stating that day.

 

And we still do this. For example, dgalehouse has repeatedly expressed his confidence that Jarren Duran could become a star. I (think I) do see what he sees in Duran. But as recently as 2022, Sean McDonough questioned whether Duran was even a Major Leaguer. Hey, maybe denny is one of the first on that boat…

 

My first idol was Mike Andrews, a second baseman with some pop in the late-60s. A better hitter than fielder, he actually got MVP votes in two years and made an All-Star team when the Sox were good.

 

Later on, Andrews was famously fired in a World Series for making an error... out of baseball at age 29, but made life better for others as chairman of the Jimmy Fund for over 30 years.

[notin]

My first idol was Mike Andrews, a second baseman with some pop in the late-60s. A better hitter than fielder, he actually got MVP votes in two years and made an All-Star team when the Sox were good.

 

Later on, Andrews was famously fired in a World Series for making an error... out of baseball at age 29, but made life better for others as chairman of the Jimmy Fund for over 30 years.

 

The late Denny Doyle was on my favs list, for the simple reason that as a wee lad, in the very first game I see l went to at Fenway, Denny autographed my program…

[Bellhorn04]

Meanwhile, the 2024 Red Sox shape up as being thoroughly mediocre and boring.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Meanwhile, the 2024 Red Sox shape up as being thoroughly mediocre and boring.

 

They will be twice as good as the 2020 Red Sox!

 

I'll bet my 1988 Surf Book that Boston will at least double the win total of the '20 losers.

[notin]

Meanwhile, the 2024 Red Sox shape up as being thoroughly mediocre and boring.

 

While pitchers and catchers report in a month, there is still lot of unsigned talent that will sign somewhere. This includes 21 of MLBTRs top 50…

[Old Red]

While pitchers and catchers report in a month, there is still lot of unsigned talent that will sign somewhere. This includes 21 of MLBTRs top 50…

 

I’m still holding out until Mar 28, but the hope dwindles by the day.

[moonslav59]

I can see both sides to this issue and kind of agree with both.

 

I was a big Brewers fan starting their first year in Milwaukee, where my family and I lived. I became a huge Tommy Harper fan, and when he was traded to Boston, not long after my family and I moved to Maine, I switched to being a Red Sox fan. Players and stars do matter. To me, they matter a bit more when your team is losing (as in not winning rings.) It hurt like hell, when the Sox dismantled that team of the mid to late 70's. Not winning as many games, seemed to hurt less.

 

I remember, on that "other site," a guy named softlaw was irate over the dismantling of the 2004 championship team and called for Theo's firing. He berated the rest of us as being "Theo apologists" and the whole pink glasses thing. While many fans did not like seeing Sox stars go elsewhere, the new rings sure quieted them. The 2013 ring season is the epic example of a team, nearly completely overhauled from previous seasons, yet we hardly heard a peep from those of us who "love stars" and long term players with one team.

 

When teams lose, it comes out. Many other issues come out, as well, like not spending. Funny how that 2013 had just dumped a massive amount of contract costs on LAD and spent about $20M less than 2012. Who complained? It mostly comes out, when we lose.

 

I loved watching that 2013 season by Vic, Napoli and other non stars.

 

As much as the idea of boycotting the Sox in 2024 has appeal, I'm going to watch every Sox game, again- just like I have for decades. I'm going to root for every player. I'm going to get excited and optimistic about some of our younger and improving players. I'm going to be pissed, when we lose, and that should be more often than I had hoped for, after last season.

 

While I know nothing is for certain about prospects, I like what I see. I wish we had more young pitchers on the farm, but I do think the core or pitchers on the big club that started in the Sox system or came to us as prospects i as good as its been, in a long time. I know that is not saying much, but I think we have a decent core of younger pitchers, but still have several gaping holes in our rotation.

 

This team is pretty young. We have several promising young and pre-prime players, as well as nationally ranked top prospects. We can choose to be optimistic about that or not. We can choose to point out the long range hole in the pitching area. I won't argue there isn't one. We can argue other teams have more young stars plus prospects than we do, but I truly believe we have more than we did a few years back, and that is a sign of moving the team in the right direction, despite JH seemingly sabotaging the teams of today. I'm not forgiving him for this, or turning the other way. It sucks what he's doing. I can feel optimistic about the extended future while being disgusted by the here and now, without being hypocritical- I think.

 

[Bellhorn04]

While pitchers and catchers report in a month, there is still lot of unsigned talent that will sign somewhere. This includes 21 of MLBTRs top 50…

 

I know. But most of the top starting FA pitchers have signed, and we're getting a steady stream of stories that the Red Sox don't plan to go after Snell or Montgomery and don't plan to make a trade that involves Mayer, Anthony or Teel. So I'm depressed.

[notin]

I know. But most of the top starting FA pitchers have signed, and we're getting a steady stream of stories that the Red Sox don't plan to go after Snell or Montgomery and don't plan to make a trade that involves Mayer, Anthony or Teel. So I'm depressed.

 

But the top bullpen arms can be had!

 

In today’s game, a strong bullpen is just as important. And if managed properly, can get you into the postseason. Tampa does this every year and with only decent SP…

[Old Red]

I can see both sides to this issue and kind of agree with both.

 

I was a big Brewers fan starting their first year in Milwaukee, where my family and I lived. I became a huge Tommy Harper fan, and when he was traded to Boston, not long after my family and I moved to Maine, I switched to being a Red Sox fan. Players and stars do matter. To me, they matter a bit more when your team is losing (as in not winning rings.) It hurt like hell, when the Sox dismantled that team of the mid to late 70's. Not winning as many games, seemed to hurt less.

 

I remember, on that "other site," a guy named softlaw was irate over the dismantling of the 2004 championship team and called for Theo's firing. He berated the rest of us as being "Theo apologists" and the whole pink glasses thing. While many fans did not like seeing Sox stars go elsewhere, the new rings sure quieted them. The 2013 ring season is the epic example of a team, nearly completely overhauled from previous seasons, yet we hardly heard a peep from those of us who "love stars" and long term players with one team.

 

When teams lose, it comes out. Many other issues come out, as well, like not spending. Funny how that 2013 had just dumped a massive amount of contract costs on LAD and spent about $20M less than 2012. Who complained? It mostly comes out, when we lose.

 

I loved watching that 2013 season by Vic, Napoli and other non stars.

 

As much as the idea of boycotting the Sox in 2024 has appeal, I'm going to watch every Sox game, again- just like I have for decades. I'm going to root for every player. I'm going to get excited and optimistic about some of our younger and improving players. I'm going to be pissed, when we lose, and that should be more often than I had hoped for, after last season.

 

While I know nothing is for certain about prospects, I like what I see. I wish we had more young pitchers on the farm, but I do think the core or pitchers on the big club that started in the Sox system or came to us as prospects i as good as its been, in a long time. I know that is not saying much, but I think we have a decent core of younger pitchers, but still have several gaping holes in our rotation.

 

This team is pretty young. We have several promising young and pre-prime players, as well as nationally ranked top prospects. We can choose to be optimistic about that or not. We can choose to point out the long range hole in the pitching area. I won't argue there isn't one. We can argue other teams have more young stars plus prospects than we do, but I truly believe we have more than we did a few years back, and that is a sign of moving the team in the right direction, despite JH seemingly sabotaging the teams of today. I'm not forgiving him for this, or turning the other way. It sucks what he's doing. I can feel optimistic about the extended future while being disgusted by the here and now, without being hypocritical- I think.

 

 

Now this is a well written post. One of your better ones.👍

[Old Red]

But the top bullpen arms can be had!

 

In today’s game, a strong bullpen is just as important. And if managed properly, can get you into the postseason. Tampa does this every year and with only decent SP…

A strong BP can be just as important as long as they don’t get worn out like last year. This pen could be even deeper this year depending on what they do with, Houck, and Whit, and if Jansen stays put.