Red Sox Relief Pitching 2023

[mvp 78]

White Sox: Jake Diekman and righty Franklin German were designated for assignment

[mvp 78]

German in AAA this year:

12.7% K

7.2% BB

7.15 ERA

 

Diekman in MLB this year:

8.74% K

10.32% BB

7.94 ERA

 

Theo Denlinger in AA (traded for German):

11.3% K

0.9% BB

0.87 ERA

[mvp 78]

@ChrisCotillo

Jansen probably unavailable for the Sox again today. Whitlock is undergoing more testing today.

[notin]

German in AAA this year:

12.7% K

7.2% BB

7.15 ERA

 

Diekman in MLB this year:

8.74% K

10.32% BB

7.94 ERA

 

Theo Denlinger in AA (traded for German):

11.3% K

0.9% BB

0.87 ERA

 

Denlinger also makes more horseshoes than German…

[mvp 78]

Denlinger also makes more horseshoes than German…

 

I believe he was more of a knife, axe, sword guy. His shop appears to be down now.

[notin]

I believe he was more of a knife, axe, sword guy. His shop appears to be down now.

 

So… you’re saying German’s horseshoes are better?

[mvp 78]

So… you’re saying German’s horseshoes are better?

 

German was doing something other than working on secondary pitches, that's one thing we know for sure.

[Nick]

Starters

Sale Kluber Bello Pivetta Paxton

 

Houck Whitlock Winckowski and Kutter long relievers

 

Martin Schriber Bernardino Bleier one inning guys

 

Jansen the closer

 

Not too bad especially if we can add a #1 starter in Juy

Edited May 4, 2023 by Nick

[notin]

German was doing something other than working on secondary pitches, that's one thing we know for sure.

 

Well played…

[mvp 78]

Well played…

 

Why isn't moon banging the drum to bring him back?

[mvp 78]

Starters

Sale Kluber Bello Pivetta Paxton

 

Houck Whitlock Winckowski and Kutter long relievers

 

Martin Schriber Bernardino Bleier one inning guys

 

Jansen the closer

 

Not too bad especially if we can add a #1 starter in Juy

 

Houck:

1st time through the order:

393 OPS, 2.84 FIP

2nd time through the order:

875 OPS, 3.96 FIP

3rd time through the order:

1037 OPS, 8.57 FIP

 

VS RHP:

540 OPS, 2.62

VS LHP:

870 OPS, 5.94

 

He's added some pitches this season, but we're still seeing the same problems. He can't turn the lineup over. He struggles with lefties. He's a bullpen arm that can spot start. Maybe a piggyback off an opener.

[moonslav59]

Houck:

1st time through the order:

393 OPS, 2.84 FIP

2nd time through the order:

875 OPS, 3.96 FIP

3rd time through the order:

1037 OPS, 8.57 FIP

 

VS RHP:

540 OPS, 2.62

VS LHP:

870 OPS, 5.94

 

He's added some pitches this season, but we're still seeing the same problems. He can't turn the lineup over. He struggles with lefties. He's a bullpen arm that can spot start. Maybe a piggyback off an opener.

 

His last start really widened the gaps between 1st and 3rd time through the line-up. He did pretty good the start before.

 

I totally agree, and have displayed these splits several times, before, but we should remember this:

 

Sample Size

 

234 PAs 1st time through

217 2nd time

59 3rd time.

 

59 PAs is just about 2 complete games allowing just 5 baserunners.

[mvp 78]

His last start really widened the gaps between 1st and 3rd time through the line-up. He did pretty good the start before.

 

I totally agree, and have displayed these splits several times, before, but we should remember this:

 

Sample Size

 

234 PAs 1st time through

217 2nd time

59 3rd time.

 

59 PAs is just about 2 complete games allowing just 5 baserunners.

 

The start before:

Houck sees 8 batters and gives up 3 runs in the 4th inning when he tries to turn the order over the third time. Or is that the SSS again?

 

He's always going to have a SSS on the third time through, because he sucks at doing it. Out of 6 starts, 2 have been above average (MN on 4/20 and DET on 4/8).

[moonslav59]

The start before:

Houck sees 8 batters and gives up 3 runs in the 4th inning when he tries to turn the order over the third time. Or is that the SSS again?

 

He's always going to have a SSS on the third time through, because he sucks at doing it. Out of 6 starts, 2 have been above average (MN on 4/20 and DET on 4/8).

 

Yes, my bad. It was 2 starts before he was okay, except for a solo shot.

Edited May 4, 2023 by moonslav59

[notin]

The start before:

Houck sees 8 batters and gives up 3 runs in the 4th inning when he tries to turn the order over the third time. Or is that the SSS again?

 

He's always going to have a SSS on the third time through, because he sucks at doing it. Out of 6 starts, 2 have been above average (MN on 4/20 and DET on 4/8).

 

Houck just isn’t a SP. Ditto Whitlock, for different reasons.

 

There’s nothing wrong with that, but the issue is they’re both more in the rotation by default. I am hoping the Sox move both to the bullpen and Paxton and Bello can take over the starting roles. I have my doubts Cora and Bloom see it that way, however…

[mvp 78]

Houck just isn’t a SP. Ditto Whitlock, for different reasons.

 

There’s nothing wrong with that, but the issue is they’re both more in the rotation by default. I am hoping the Sox move both to the bullpen and Paxton and Bello can take over the starting roles. I have my doubts Cora and Bloom see it that way, however…

 

There's been lots of waffling with Houck and Whitlock. I don't know if it's because their is internal disagreement about the players' future or if just because a lack of options at the upper levels.

[mvp 78]

Yes, it was 2 starts before he was okay.

 

Against the Twins

1st time through the order: 0 H, 1 BB, 5 K

2nd time through the order: 3 H, 0 BB, 1 K

3rd time through the order: 3 H, 0 BB, 1 K, 3 ER

 

I'm still seeing a drop in effectiveness after the first time through the order and then it getting worse as the lineup turns over a third time. The k rate falls off the table and he ends up giving up a big bomb. Even in his best start of the year!

[moonslav59]

Houck just isn’t a SP. Ditto Whitlock, for different reasons.

 

There’s nothing wrong with that, but the issue is they’re both more in the rotation by default. I am hoping the Sox move both to the bullpen and Paxton and Bello can take over the starting roles. I have my doubts Cora and Bloom see it that way, however…

 

I'm pretty convinced on Houck, but the sample size is still pretty small on the whole 3rd time through thingy.

 

I'm not so sure on Whitlock. The health argument may have merit, but maybe not. His SP'er sample size is even smaller, but both seem to do very well the first time through- suggesting a 2-3 IP role is best, although late inning 1 IP roles would work, too.

 

It would be interesting to see us try a pen with 4 guys that can go 2-4 IP: Houck, Whitlock, Wink and Crawford. We could use one every day with each pitching every 4 days.

 

For that to happen, we'd need 5 reliable SP'ers:

 

Sale

Bello

Kluber

Paxton

_____ (Mata, Walter, Murphy, Drohan? Or, trade for one?)

 

(Even the first 4 are a bit shaky.)

[moonslav59]

Against the Twins

1st time through the order: 0 H, 1 BB, 5 K

2nd time through the order: 3 H, 0 BB, 1 K

3rd time through the order: 3 H, 0 BB, 1 K, 3 ER

 

I'm still seeing a drop in effectiveness after the first time through the order and then it getting worse as the lineup turns over a third time. The k rate falls off the table and he ends up giving up a big bomb. Even in his best start of the year!

 

I guess I misremembered. He did retire 7 of the last 9, but one hit was a 2 run HR.

 

My bad.

[Bellhorn04]

There's been lots of waffling with Houck and Whitlock. I don't know if it's because their is internal disagreement about the players' future or if just because a lack of options at the upper levels.

 

I think with Houck it's lack of options. Whitlock they've really wanted to be a starter, but he keeps getting hurt.

[mvp 78]

I think with Houck it's lack of options. Whitlock they've really wanted to be a starter, but he keeps getting hurt.

 

He was damaged goods when they got him in Rule 5. He's still a valuable pitcher, he just is what he is.

[sk7326]

I think with Houck it's lack of options. Whitlock they've really wanted to be a starter, but he keeps getting hurt.

 

The deal with Houck is the deep splits - which is something you can mange in the pen. The thing that is tough about him is that he can be devastating - against righthanders. That delivery and armslot are just juicy looks for lefties.

 

Whitlock's virtue is that he pounds the strike zone - but I just don't know if there is an elite pitch as a starter. But the durability has mooted a lot of this.

[moonslav59]

The deal with Houck is the deep splits - which is something you can mange in the pen. The thing that is tough about him is that he can be devastating - against righthanders. That delivery and armslot are just juicy looks for lefties.

 

Whitlock's virtue is that he pounds the strike zone - but I just don't know if there is an elite pitch as a starter. But the durability has mooted a lot of this.

 

He's pretty good against lefties, too- just the first time facing them.

[mvp 78]

Whitlock is apparently back to throwing which is good news? We'll see if and when he gets back on the mound.

[Bellhorn04]

Whitlock is apparently back to throwing which is good news? We'll see if and when he gets back on the mound.

 

It would be very good news if we see him again soon.

[moonslav59]

Just don't rush him. We need a healthy Whitlock.

[mvp 78]

Just don't rush him. We need a healthy Whitlock.

 

He's not showing any nerve symptoms and is throwing. I don't know if they've put a timetable on him. They haven't said anything anyway. They said they weren't worried about TJS, but were just being cautious.

 

Paxton is pitching his last WOO start today. They'll need to make a decision soon.

 

Joely pitched last night at WOO, but his velo is way down, like 2 mph down.

[Bellhorn04]

Joely pitched last night at WOO, but his velo is way down, like 2 mph down.

 

That's exactly the attitude we've been talking about that ruins pitchers' arms.

[mvp 78]

That's exactly the attitude we've been talking about that ruins pitchers' arms.

 

LOL, I'm talking about getting him back to his normal 92 mph self that he has been for his career. If he can be effective at 90, fine. I just don't know if he can be.

[mvp 78]

@IanMBrowne

Kutter Crawford to the IL retroactive to May 4 with left hamstring strain. Kaleb Ort replaces him on roster.