Red Sox Starting Rotation 2023

[moonslav59]

I doubt he Cora thought the top of the lineup Saturday was a better matchup for Jansen than the bottom of the lineup he faced on Friday…

 

No, I meant he might have looked at like Jansen was a better match-up than Martin or the mysteriously missing Schreiber.

[moonslav59]

That might not be the approach. The approach might simply be not spending nine figures and 6-7 years on pitchers who are likely only to be effective for two…

 

Then trade for a younger pitcher and lock them up for 6-7 years and get 4-6 years of effectiveness.

 

When you load your farm with everyday players and can't fill the rotation from within, this is an option- an option we have done very well with since the pedro trade.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Then trade for a younger pitcher and lock them up for 6-7 years and get 4-6 years of effectiveness.

 

When you load your farm with everyday players and can't fill the rotation from within, this is an option- an option we have done very well with since the pedro trade.

 

Yup, I definitely included spending trade capital when I said "investing" in good pitchers.

 

As for getting too deep in a hole, maybe Bloom doesn't see it as that big a problem now that Sale looks like he just might be a major trade chip come July.

 

And I hate to say it, but that might have been an attractive option on the planning board this winter for the same sharp data analysts in the front office that told fans in person, "a five-year rebuild? That's not acceptable."

[moonslav59]

Yup, I definitely included spending trade capital when I said "investing" in good pitchers.

 

As for getting too deep in a hole, maybe Bloom doesn't see it as that big a problem now that Sale looks like he just might be a major trade chip come July.

 

And I hate to say it, but that might have been an attractive option on the planning board this winter for the same sharp data analysts in the front office that told fans in person, "a five-year rebuild? That's not acceptable."

 

Acceptable or not, the 5 years are up, or just about up, if you skip over 2020 and start with 2019.

 

It was never a full blown rebuild, either, as we did not sell in 2019 or 2021, and did not "sell enough" in 2022.

[Nick]

Kluber is cooked. All the quotes about getting ripped by the last-place Cardinals were because he was mislocating his "fastball". He doesn't have the stuff anymore to blow it past big league hitters, so he has to be perfect on the perimeters just to survive every game. It's not happening.

 

The Red Sox and Bloom need to admit mistake signings -- like they did with Richards and Diekman -- and move on. Put the best five starters in the rotation -- not the five who have the least amount of "options" remaining. Here's an option: stop pretending to contend, and expedite the future by giving younger starters regular turns in the rotation, where they can develop their legitimate stuff.

 

It's easier for fans to watch the youthful promise of hope than fading figures of mope.

 

I love this. My exact sentiments.

 

We don't have to give up on the season. Bello has to pitch. Houck has to pitch. Whitlock has to pitch.

 

PS. Pivetta should be in the trade talks. He's in his arbitration 2 year. He will be attractive to even the cellar dwellers if we pick up bulk of his money.

Moon and others keep talking about his 'value' as #5 starter. Just look at his stats from June 1, 2022 forward. Yeah I'm skipping last May because that

was not normal as it turns out.

Are we seriously going to EXTEND HIM? Probably not so you trade him with one and a half year of team control left. Say you trade him to the Athletics paying all of his salary, surely you can get something in return, maybe a young bullpen arm.

 

That's Tampa Rays way....didn't Bloom learn anything?

Edited May 15, 2023 by Nick

[moonslav59]

I love this. My exact sentiments.

 

We don't have to give up on the season. Bello has to pitch. Houck has to pitch. Whitlock has to pitch.

 

There is a way to keep Kluber on the 26 while allowing all these kids to pitch on the big club, and one step was taken, today:

 

Brasier was DFA's.

 

Bernardino can be optioned to AAA.

 

Next is Bleier.

[Nick]

There is a way to keep Kluber on the 26 while allowing all these kids to pitch on the big club, and one step was taken, today:

 

Brasier was DFA's.

 

Bernardino can be optioned to AAA.

 

Next is Bleier.

 

I agree with you Bloom. My only question is will Kluber hinder the team further by starting? Is there something wrong with him physically? Will 10 day IL make him pitch better? Are we fair to him by keeping him in a non-starter role?

 

Obviously we did the right thing with Brasier. But I hope he does get picked up and do better than what he did for the Sox this year. I don't ever HATE any baseball player. I just don't want some on our team when they are not performing well.

 

I saw that we are shopping Dalbec. I just feel bad that he couldn't make it work in Boston. He has all the good qualities, except his OPS isn't good enough. I also wish him well if he gets traded.

[moonslav59]

I agree with you Bloom. My only question is will Kluber hinder the team further by starting?

 

Well, as of now, we don't have 5 solid SP'ers with recent 2023 success.

 

Sale, Bello and Paxton have earned a next start.

 

Houck should continue.

 

Whitlock's situation and possible use from the pen, makes his slot iffy.

 

I think we can run Kluber out there a few more times, or until someone else shows they belong.

 

After 2-3 more slots, I might be joining some who seemingly want him gone, now.

 

Maybe Kluber can give us something from the pen.

[notin]

I agree with you Bloom. My only question is will Kluber hinder the team further by starting? Is there something wrong with him physically? Will 10 day IL make him pitch better? Are we fair to him by keeping him in a non-starter role?

 

Obviously we did the right thing with Brasier. But I hope he does get picked up and do better than what he did for the Sox this year. I don't ever HATE any baseball player. I just don't want some on our team when they are not performing well.

 

I saw that we are shopping Dalbec. I just feel bad that he couldn't make it work in Boston. He has all the good qualities, except his OPS isn't good enough. I also wish him well if he gets traded.

 

Dalbec makes sense for the Reds, Nationals, Pirates, A’s and probably a couple other teams as a RHH bench bat and possible weak side 1b platoon. He has two marketable skills: a career .855 OPS vs LHP, and a league minimum salary.

 

The return won’t dazzle anyone, but it’s not hard to envision a trade here…

[Nick]

Well, as of now, we don't have 5 solid SP'ers with recent 2023 success.

 

Sale, Bello and Paxton have earned a next start.

 

Houck should continue.

 

Whitlock's situation and possible use from the pen, makes his slot iffy.

 

I think we can run Kluber out there a few more times, or until someone else shows they belong.

 

After 2-3 more slots, I might be joining some who seemingly want him gone, now.

 

Maybe Kluber can give us something from the pen.

 

That begs the question......Kluber or Pivetta?

[moonslav59]

That begs the question......Kluber or Pivetta?

 

I think they already chose Kluber, but certainly Pivetta can win back the 5 slot (assuming Whitlock goes to the pen.)

 

Maybe both Kluber and Pivetta end up in the pen. Maybe one gets traded.

 

As bad as our staff has been, I think the healthy top 13 look decent enough, but I'm projecting some pitchers to regress back to their norms.

[Bellhorn04]

Yup.

 

 

Right, because those guys are obviously good pitchers throwing to the wrong guy.

 

Lets for one second assume I'm wrong, you're right, now I have to sing a song.....even advocates of CERA present data that the increase ERA is what? a run or less per game? These 7.08 and 7.11 ERAs are insanely high. It's obviously NOT the catching....these guys suck right now. Kluber and Pivetta Suck.

 

Probably so, but they weren't this bad before. And they do have better numbers with Wong. Kluber's was only one start with Wong, I realize that.

[moonslav59]

For argument's sake, let's say we DFA or trade Beier and Brasier and demote Bernardino, we have an interesting mix of SP'ers, a ton of "long men" and a few set-up guys. (Note: some longmen could do fine in shorter roles or a mix.)

 

Staring 5: Sale, Bello, Paxton, Houck and Kluber

 

Long Men: Whitlock, Winckowski, Crawford and Pivetta

 

Short Men: Jansen, Martin, Schreiber, Joely

 

That's a nice looking long man group, and if Joely shines and jansen finds his groove, again, a pretty nice group of short men, too.

 

As always, the rotation is the biggest question mark.

[moonslav59]

Probably so, but they weren't this bad before. And they do have better numbers with Wong. Kluber's was only one start with Wong, I realize that.

 

It seems strange just how many of our pitchers are so far below their career marks and recent 2-3 year marks.

 

I do think new battery mates plays a role, but it can't be everything.

 

Tough schedule, pitch clock, cold weather? Those can only bring you so far.

 

It's hard to pinpoint why this is happening, but I can't bring myself to think Vaz and Plawecki would have made a big impact.

 

Kluber: Age?

35 3.83 ERA

36 4.34 ERA

37 6.41 ERA

 

Pivetta: Reverting back to Philly Pivetta?

5.50 w Philly

4.55 last 2 years w BOS

6.23 in 2023

 

Whitlock: Injury/finding groove?

2.73 2021-2022

6.19 2023

 

Houck: Injury? Shifting roles?

3.02 ('20-'22)

5.26 2023

Career: 2.68 RP/3.81 SP

Edited May 15, 2023 by moonslav59

[Bellhorn04]

It seems strange just how many of our pitchers are so far below their career marks and recent 2-3 year marks.

 

I do think new battery mates plays a role, but it can't be everything.

 

Tough schedule, pitch clock, cold weather? Those can only bring you so far.

 

It's hard to pinpoint why this is happening, but I can't bring myself to think Vaz and Plawecki would have made a big impact.

 

I can't explain it, but I would definitely give Kluber another start or two with Wong.

[Nick]

I can't explain it, but I would definitely give Kluber another start or two with Wong.

 

I'll catch if it would help Kluber.

[moonslav59]

I can't explain it, but I would definitely give Kluber another start or two with Wong.

 

No problem on trying to find whatever works.

[moonslav59]

I can't explain it, but I would definitely give Kluber another start or two with Wong.

 

Can you explain this?

 

Crawford:

1.26 with McGuire (.412 OPSA)

6.35 with Wong (.854 OPSA)

 

Winck to lesser extent:

1.86 w McGuire

3.00 w Wong

 

I think these two probably saw Wong in the minors.

 

Want more small sample size wonders?

 

Whitlock

0.00 w Wong in 2022

6.19 w Wong in 2023

 

Should we pull Wong, when Jansen comes in?

0.00 w McGuire

7.71 w McGuire

 

Oh, the wonders of small sample sizes.

 

[mvp 78]

Has moon come full circle on CERA?

[moonslav59]

Has moon come full circle on CERA?

 

Not even close. It's always been about large enough sample sizes with the same pitchers, which are rare for 2 catchers.

 

Do try to keep up.

 

My post was directed towards the fickleness of small sample sizes.

[Bellhorn04]

Can you explain this?

 

Crawford:

1.26 with McGuire (.412 OPSA)

6.35 with Wong (.854 OPSA)

 

Winck to lesser extent:

1.86 w McGuire

3.00 w Wong

 

I think these two probably saw Wong in the minors.

 

Want more small sample size wonders?

 

Whitlock

0.00 w Wong in 2022

6.19 w Wong in 2023

 

Should we pull Wong, when Jansen comes in?

0.00 w McGuire

7.71 w McGuire

 

Oh, the wonders of small sample sizes.

 

 

One thing is indisputable, though: not one of our starting pitchers has done anything but horrendous with McGuire catching him. If you could drill down to collective starter ERA with McGuire catching, it would be a ghastly number.

[moonslav59]

One thing is indisputable, though: not one of our starting pitchers has done anything but horrendous with McGuire catching him. If you could drill down to collective starter ERA with McGuire catching, it would be a ghastly number.

 

No doubt, and when every single small sample size shows bad numbers with McGuire, it does take away some from the smallness of the position taken.

 

I will add that 4 of our SP'ers have not pitched to McGuire, this year, it kind of skews the data.

 

No Houck

No Whitlock

No Paxton

No Crawford as a starter

 

Kluber has one start with Wong. Bello only has 5 starts.

 

There is so much imbalance, it's really all about 2 pitchers: Pivetta and Sale.

 

I'm not saying the numbers don't worry me: they do!

 

I'm hoping this was just "the adjustment period," and it's time to show what we got.

[Nick]

Kluber signing is perplexing

[Nick]

Ok I am now convinced Houck should go to the pen.

If it turns out Whitlock is also suited for pen I will be bummed.

[Nick]

Sale Paxton Bello looks solid. Yeah I know...

 

I'm not sure we can win 2 out of 5 with Kluber and Pivette. Yikes.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Kluber signing is perplexing

 

Guaranteed salary

(winter signings):

 

Eovaldi $34M 5-2, 2.70

Wacha $26M 4-1, 4.06

Kluber $10M 2-5, 6.41

 

Hope this clears it up for you.

Sincerely, the mid-market favorite franchise of a six-state region

 

p.s. someday when we're good again, we'll invest in good pitchers

[Bellhorn04]

Guaranteed salary

(winter signings):

 

Eovaldi $34M 5-2, 2.70

Wacha $26M 4-1, 4.06

Kluber $10M 2-5, 6.41

 

Hope this clears it up for you.

Sincerely, the mid-market favorite franchise of a six-state region

 

p.s. someday when we're good again, we'll invest in good pitchers

 

And Eovaldi is for 2 years, Wacha for 4 years.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

And Eovaldi is for 2 years, Wacha for 4 years.

 

But one-year contracts give us payroll flexibility... to be able to sign new mediocrity to more one-year deals next winter!

 

A lot of fan has to be already looking forward to the next offseason. No, wait -- not this one, the next one...

[notin]

But one-year contracts give us payroll flexibility... to be able to sign new mediocrity to more one-year deals next winter!

 

A lot of fan has to be already looking forward to the next offseason. No, wait -- not this one, the next one...

 

So you think the Sox should have topped the 4 year $26mill contract for a SP who hasn’t pitched 130 IP in a season since 2017? Do we think he will get healthier as he ages?

 

What if Wacha loses a mph or 2 off his fastball next year? Will you want him around for 2 more seasons?

[Bellhorn04]

But one-year contracts give us payroll flexibility... to be able to sign new mediocrity to more one-year deals next winter!

 

A lot of fan has to be already looking forward to the next offseason. No, wait -- not this one, the next one...

 

Once again, it's just inexplicable and extremely frustrating that they didn't do more to address the rotation. And if we end the year out of the playoffs and giving up 5 runs a game, Bloom absolutely deserves to lose his job. Inexcusable, especially for a guy who was supposed to be bringing the Rays pitching savvy with him.