Corey Kluber signs with Red Sox

[mvp 78]

Yes, but someone signing Verlander for that kind of money means you are going all in. Are the Red Sox in any position to go all in?

 

They should have been if they wanted to. Sign Xander. Sign Verlander. Fill up the pen. Potentially still sign Yoshida. Short term deals aren't a big issue as you can reset in the near term.

[Old Red]

Would have to be done by trade. Rodon is younger, but I have my doubts about that contract for sure.

 

I agree, and the Yankees are in a better position talent, and money wise to do a Rondon deal.

[mvp 78]

Old Red has already written the future. Just like he’s already filled in all the blanks from the past…

 

They were a 4th place team though and already showed a deep commitment to big contracts with Semien and Seager.

[mvp 78]

I agree, and the Yankees are in a better position talent, and money wise to do a Rondon deal.

 

How money wise?

[notin]

They were a 4th place team though and already showed a deep commitment to big contracts with Semien and Seager.

 

Are you really going to lead with “4th place” as if it was such a major accomplishment?

 

They won 68 games and finished 38 games behind Houston. They finished 18 games behind Tampa for the third wild card. Just because they played in a division with the more incompetent A’s didn’t make them closer to contention than Boston.

 

Remember when you repeatedly crapped on Boston’s hit stretch as being just against a bunch of bad teams?? Those bad teams are Texas’ division!! And they got to play them 76 times out of 162 games!!

 

Oh but now those teams are clearly all better positioned than Boston.

[Old Red]

How money wise?

 

They signed Judge, and I’m sure for a lot more than they wanted to. JH would not have done that.

[moonslav59]

I like the pen moves, including moving Whitlock to the rotation.

 

The rotation is still a question mark, but I don't think any of the FA guys were the answer this year anyway.

 

I completely understand everyone's frustration. While I like some of the moves, the big picture just doesn't seem to cut the mustard this offseason.

 

Do you agree the focus on LF and DH, in terms of the percentage of the winter budget going there was part of the mustard not being cut?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

At pitching.

 

In what way is Wacha better? (And Wacha may not be out of the picture FYI…

 

Statistically. It just depends on which stats fit the narrative.

One can argue against any cold, hard stats, but here are some facts from 2022 (not 2017):

 

WAR -- Wacha 3.3, Kluber 0.7

W-L -- Wacha 11-2 for a last place team, Kluber 10-10 on a playoff team

ERA -- Wacha 3.32, Kluber 4.34 (that's like... a run per game)

WHIP -- Wacha 1.115, Kluber: 1.213

H9 -- Wacha 7.8, Kluber 9.8

 

Even if those numbers don't show a clear edge, age might make Wacha, 30, more attractive than Kluber, 36.

The Red Sox could use them both, anyway, when their other old and/or injured starters inevitably break down again.

[Old Red]

Texas spent more on deGrom despite winning 10 fewer games than Boston…

 

How many years for DeGrom, and how many years for Verlander? Not even close to being the same thing.

[notin]

Statistically. It just depends on which stats fit the narrative.

One can argue against any cold, hard stats, but here are some facts from 2022 (not 2017):

 

WAR -- Wacha 3.3, Kluber 0.7

W-L -- Wacha 11-2 for a last place team, Kluber 10-10 on a playoff team

ERA -- Wacha 3.32, Kluber 4.34 (that's like... a run per game)

WHIP -- Wacha 1.115, Kluber: 1.213

H9 -- Wacha 7.8, Kluber 9.8

 

Even if those numbers don't show a clear edge, age might make Wacha, 30, more attractive than Kluber, 36.

The Red Sox could use them both, anyway, when their other old and/or injured starters inevitably break down again.

 

And if we only use one season, do we conclude Elvis Andrus is a better home run hitter than Bogaerts? There’s a reason most use multiple seasons. I prefer 3 years worth myself…

[Bellhorn04]

Statistically. It just depends on which stats fit the narrative.

One can argue against any cold, hard stats, but here are some facts from 2022 (not 2017):

 

WAR -- Wacha 3.3, Kluber 0.7

W-L -- Wacha 11-2 for a last place team, Kluber 10-10 on a playoff team

ERA -- Wacha 3.32, Kluber 4.34 (that's like... a run per game)

WHIP -- Wacha 1.115, Kluber: 1.213

H9 -- Wacha 7.8, Kluber 9.8

 

Even if those numbers don't show a clear edge, age might make Wacha, 30, more attractive than Kluber, 36.

The Red Sox could use them both, anyway, when their other old and/or injured starters inevitably break down again.

 

Wacha also had a 5.57 ERA in September with a .941 OPS and 8 dingers allowed in 32.1 innings. It appears he either ran out of gas or his luck started to go the other way.

[Old Red]

Statistically. It just depends on which stats fit the narrative.

One can argue against any cold, hard stats, but here are some facts from 2022 (not 2017):

 

WAR -- Wacha 3.3, Kluber 0.7

W-L -- Wacha 11-2 for a last place team, Kluber 10-10 on a playoff team

ERA -- Wacha 3.32, Kluber 4.34 (that's like... a run per game)

WHIP -- Wacha 1.115, Kluber: 1.213

H9 -- Wacha 7.8, Kluber 9.8

 

Even if those numbers don't show a clear edge, age might make Wacha, 30, more attractive than Kluber, 36.

The Red Sox could use them both, anyway, when their other old and/or injured starters inevitably break down again.

Like I said if the money was the same I believe the Red Sox would have taken Wacha over Kluber.

[notin]

How many years for DeGrom, and how many years for Verlander? Not even close to being the same thing.

 

Do you remember your point? Teams only go in for Verlander (and his ilk) when going for it, and the Sox were in no position to do that.

 

So tell me how 68-94 Texas is in a better position? And hopefully your argument doesn’t hinge on them finishing ahead of Oakland…

[Old Red]

And if we only use one season, do we conclude Elvis Andrus is a better home run hitter than Bogaerts? There’s a reason most use multiple seasons. I prefer 3 years worth myself…

 

When players start getting up in age especially a pitcher I think the last year is more relevant.

[Old Red]

Do you remember your point? Teams only go in for Verlander (and his ilk) when going for it, and the Sox were in no position to do that.

 

So tell me how 68-94 Texas is in a better position? And hopefully your argument doesn’t hinge on them finishing ahead of Oakland…

 

Verlander at his present age is just a short term fix. Big difference.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

And if we only use one season, do we conclude Elvis Andrus is a better home run hitter than Bogaerts? There’s a reason most use multiple seasons. I prefer 3 years worth myself…

 

Ok, then I'll take Bello over Paxton in the rotation since he's pitched twice as many games and has twice as many Ws the past three years (in the bigs).

 

Then again, Bello is a good bet at this point to double up on Paxton again in just '23 alone. Unless Sale runs him over on his stationary bike or hits him with a big screen TV.

[moonslav59]

They signed Judge, and I’m sure for a lot more than they wanted to. JH would not have done that.

 

Signing Judge & Rodon, now makes them in a worse financial situation than the Sox. (They probably were worse before that signing.)

 

Major commitments:

 

BOS

$112.5M/5 Story

$90M/5 Yoshida

$44.3M/2 Sale

$32M/2 Jansen

$17.5M/3 Martin

$16.5M/3 Whitlock

That's all the Sox have commited beyond 2023.

 

NYY

$360M/9 Judge

$216M/6 Cole

$162/6 Rodon

$135M/5 Stanton (counting the $3M a yr MIA pays)

$60M/4 LeMahieu

$40M/2 Rizzo

$31M/3 Hicks

$28M/2 Donaldson (counting the buyout in '24)

$11.5M/2 Kahnle

 

 

 

 

[moonslav59]

Like I said if the money was the same I believe the Red Sox would have taken Wacha over Kluber.

 

Let's see what Wacha gets, and we may get an answer.

[moonslav59]

When players start getting up in age especially a pitcher I think the last year is more relevant.

 

And, when players are often hurt or wildly inconsistent, maybe just the last year is less important, right?

[Tedballgame]

Kluber is better than Eovaldi, Wacha or Hill. Is he better than two of them combined?

 

I wouldn't say Kluber is better than either one of them.

[moonslav59]

I wouldn't say Kluber is better than either one of them.

 

They all seem pretty even, in terms of 2023 expectations, and really, that should be the issue.

 

Nate's future is always a big question mark, mainly because of his health, but he's also had dips in effectiveness about as often as spikes of the leat 4, 6, 8 or more years. His peripheral numbers in 2022 were down.

 

Hill keeps chugging along, even at age 42, but one keeps wondering when the bubble will burst. Was it agreed that he'd take the spring of 2023 off?

 

Wacha's 2022 could easily be viewed as a fluke or an outlier. He's probably the hardest to project.

 

Kluber is a risk, too, but his injury was long enough ago to get a pretty good idea of what to expect- maybe easier to project than Nate, Wacha or Hill for 2023. He has 37 starts since Aug 30, 2021. Good enough for me.

[Old Red]

Signing Judge & Rodon, now makes them in a worse financial situation than the Sox. (They probably were worse before that signing.)

 

Major commitments:

 

BOS

$112.5M/5 Story

$90M/5 Yoshida

$44.3M/2 Sale

$32M/2 Jansen

$17.5M/3 Martin

$16.5M/3 Whitlock

That's all the Sox have commited beyond 2023.

 

NYY

$360M/9 Judge

$216M/6 Cole

$162/6 Rodon

$135M/5 Stanton (counting the $3M a yr MIA pays)

$60M/4 LeMahieu

$40M/2 Rizzo

$31M/3 Hicks

$28M/2 Donaldson (counting the buyout in '24)

$11.5M/2 Kahnle

 

 

 

 

 

It’s only a worse financial situation if the Yankees care about that. I know it’s hard to believe that not all teams do.

[moonslav59]

It’s only a worse financial situation if the Yankees care about that. I know it’s hard to believe that not all teams do.

 

I know it's hard to believe, but the Yankees have proven to care about their budget, since the George era. If you want to hear rants about failure to spend on a team, go outside your bubble and read some past Yankee blogs.

 

The Yanks will reset within 3 years: book it.

 

Even the Dodgers are resetting, as we speak.

[notin]

Verlander at his present age is just a short term fix. Big difference.

 

As opposed to a 35yo pitcher that’s made 26 starts total in the past two years. Now THAT is a building block…

[moonslav59]

As opposed to a 35yo pitcher that’s made 26 starts total in the past two years. Now THAT is a building block…

 

No, with aging pitchers... no wait...

[Old Red]

I know it's hard to believe, but the Yankees have proven to care about their budget, since the George era. If you want to hear rants about failure to spend on a team, go outside your bubble and read some past Yankee blogs.

 

The Yanks will reset within 3 years: book it.

 

Even the Dodgers are resetting, as we speak.

 

The Yankees are going for it now, and that’s all that matters at the moment. If they pay later then good for them, but if they win now it’s bad for the Red Sox.

[Bellhorn04]

Like I said if the money was the same I believe the Red Sox would have taken Wacha over Kluber.

 

Wacha will get less than Kluber.

[Old Red]

As opposed to a 35yo pitcher that’s made 26 starts total in the past two years. Now THAT is a building block…

 

Would Verlander have gotten a five year deal? I wouldn’t have signed DeGrom either, but the Rangers are just throwing money out there, and I don’t think have to much of a clue what they are doing. You know kind of like Bloom.

[moonslav59]

The Yankees are going for it now, and that’s all that matters at the moment. If they pay later then good for them, but if they win now it’s bad for the Red Sox.

 

Okay, I thought the conversation was about how the Yanks were or were not better off "moneywise," after the Judge signing.

 

My bad.

[Old Red]

Wacha will get less than Kluber.

 

We shall see.