2023 Free Agents

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I just don't see that much of a difference between Ben and Chaim.

 

He wears it on his finger.

 

The '13 Sox only won six more postseason games than the '21s... but there's gotta be some weighted formula for each succeeding round. If not, someone here will develop one before the end of today...

[mvp 78]

Ben is taller…

 

Unsure about this one. There's a picture of them standing next to each other and Chaim is about the same height.

[notin]

Unsure about this one. There's a picture of them standing next to each other and Chaim is about the same height.

 

That picture was taken in an Ames room. Ben is 15 feet behind Chaim.

 

Also one has to expect that after running the Pirates or several years, Ben’s posture has suffered significantly…

[a700hitter]

That picture was taken in an Ames room. Ben is 15 feet behind Chaim.

 

Also one has to expect that after running the Pirates or several years, Ben’s posture has suffered significantly…

How long can Ben live off 2013, when has finished last every season since then?

[moonslav59]

Dombrowski reportedly wanted Ben to stay on. Not sure if he would have been fired when Dombrowski was. His replacement, Mike Hazen, left on his own choice in 2016 for a better opportunity in Arizona. And Hazen wasn’t replaced. So if Cherington stated under Dombrowski, that he would have been fired along with DD is just speculation. Not necessarily incorrect speculation, but speculation nonetheless…

 

I believe Ben would have made some prospect trades had he stayed as the GM. I doubt he'd have reached the level of trades DD made, but I'm pretty sure he'd have deal a few top prospects. We'll never know, of course.

[moonslav59]

How long can Ben live off 2013, when has finished last every season since then?

 

Probably a long time. With the Pirates, I doubt 2023 is a factor in him keeping his job.

[moonslav59]

3 weeks left before ST'ing starts. A poll by MLBTR has Andrus signing with the Sox (31%). The Braves are second at 9%.

[mvp 78]

How long can Ben live off 2013, when has finished last every season since then?

 

They were in 4th place last year buddy!

[mvp 78]

3 weeks left before ST'ing starts. A poll by MLBTR has Andrus signing with the Sox (31%). The Braves are second at 9%.

 

If Andrus signs, is Kiké pushed to 2B or CF?

 

I'm not sure I see them signing Andrus now that they have Duvall. I think they are done. Maybe guy who can play 2B and SS, but not Andrus.

[a700hitter]

They were in 4th place last year buddy!

Tied for 4th and last and lost 100 games, but I stand corrected.

[mvp 78]

Tied for 4th and last and lost 100 games, but I stand corrected.

 

They went 12-7 against the lowly Reds to win the tie breaker.

[moonslav59]

If Andrus signs, is Kiké pushed to 2B or CF?

 

I'm not sure I see them signing Andrus now that they have Duvall. I think they are done. Maybe guy who can play 2B and SS, but not Andrus.

 

I think Arroyo is the big worry, and a guy that can play SS, if Kike gets hurt or needs a rest. Since Arroyo can play SS for a game here and there, I think we will add a 2Bman and let Kike have the SS position for 2022.

 

My position has always been to have Kike in CF, even when we signed him to play 2B, but he will likely be a plus defender at SS, so I'm not upset about a likely upgrade at SS D from 2022 to 2023. If Duvall can do well in CF, this could work out well.

 

I just can't see Arroyo giving us 400 PAs, and EValdez, Hamilton and Dalbec are not what I consider quality depth at 2B.

 

If Arroyo goes down, and it's more a when than if question, who is the back up SS?

[Old Red]

If Andrus signs, is Kiké pushed to 2B or CF?

 

I'm not sure I see them signing Andrus now that they have Duvall. I think they are done. Maybe guy who can play 2B and SS, but not Andrus.

 

When Story went down I think Bloom took what was probably the easiest position to fill, which ended up being Duvall over an Andrus type, which may have wanted more money for more years.

[Old Red]

I think Arroyo is the big worry, and a guy that can play SS, if Kike gets hurt or needs a rest. Since Arroyo can play SS for a game here and there, I think we will add a 2Bman and let Kike have the SS position for 2022.

 

My position has always been to have Kike in CF, even when we signed him to play 2B, but he will likely be a plus defender at SS, so I'm not upset about a likely upgrade at SS D from 2022 to 2023. If Duvall can do well in CF, this could work out well.

 

I just can't see Arroyo giving us 400 PAs, and EValdez, Hamilton and Dalbec are not what I consider quality depth at 2B.

 

If Arroyo goes down, and it's more a when than if question, who is the back up SS?

I would sign Iggy if he is still out there. That way you got a 2B, and a backup SS over Arroyo.

[mvp 78]

When Story went down I think Bloom took what was probably the easiest position to fill, which ended up being Duvall over an Andrus type, which may have wanted more money for more years.

 

Agreed.

[moonslav59]

I would sign Iggy if he is still out there. That way you got a 2B, and a backup SS over Arroyo.

 

Iggy, who is still available, is not the SS he used to be, but he seems like a good fit for our needs, since Kike at SS seems to be the call, and Andrus will want too many years.

 

Josh Harrison might be the guy we end up with at 2B, leaving Arroyo as depth at middle IF.

[notin]

How long can Ben live off 2013, when has finished last every season since then?

 

In Pittsburgh, last place is considered par. Would you cut a golfer from your tour if he got at least par on every hole?

[a700hitter]

In Pittsburgh, last place is considered par. Would you cut a golfer from your tour if he got at least par on every hole?

Context is everything

[moonslav59]

Context is everything

 

It really does, but I wonder why you and others seem seem to discount the context with Bloom.

 

2019 Sox went 84-78

 

Cut $60M from budget, including Betts, 1/2 Price and Porcello. (Added $20 of that $60M before '21 and $30M more before '22.)

 

Inherited these contracts:

$145M/5 Sale- 11 GS/48 IP in 3 years w 3.17 ERA

$51M/3 Nate- 61 GS/340 IP in 3 seasons w 3.79 ERA

$28M/2 Pedey- 0 PAs '20 to '21

$12M/2 ERod- missed 2020 season

 

Inherited farm that produced only Houck from mid 2017 to mid 2022 (5 years)

 

Context matters.

[notin]

One name completely omitted from the Sox middle infield list is Andrelton Simmons.

 

Last year, Simmons was a part time player for the Cubs. Two years ago, when with the Twins, Simmons accounted for an outstanding 15 DRS, good for second in MLB.

 

He has had some injuries, but if remotely healthy, might be the best for it for the Sox and their lightweight infield…

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

When Story went down I think Bloom took what was probably the easiest position to fill, which ended up being Duvall over an Andrus type, which may have wanted more money for more years.

 

What are you saying: that our CBO took the cheapest way out, just to field a team with actual big leaguers this year? Is making Duvall a fulltime centerfielder -- which he has never been -- to make Kike a fulltime shortstop -- which he has never been -- (go ahead and add McGuire, Casas, Arroyo, even Yoshida at the MLB level if you want) the way to contention... or just suspension cables holding up the bridge to ticket sales for 2023?

 

Do Red Sox deserve more than the easiest way... maybe the best way? Or can most of us longterm diehards just agree this is the better way -- as long as we see those younger guys coming soon.

[mvp 78]

Iggy, who is still available, is not the SS he used to be, but he seems like a good fit for our needs, since Kike at SS seems to be the call, and Andrus will want too many years.

 

Josh Harrison might be the guy we end up with at 2B, leaving Arroyo as depth at middle IF.

 

Iggy/Harrison would also probably be ok with a back up position if necessary.

[moonslav59]

Iggy/Harrison would also probably be ok with a back up position if necessary.

 

True, but I like both better than Arroyo, but the time could be pretty much split, evenly.

[a700hitter]

It really does, but I wonder why you and others seem seem to discount the context with Bloom.

 

2019 Sox went 84-78

 

Cut $60M from budget, including Betts, 1/2 Price and Porcello. (Added $20 of that $60M before '21 and $30M more before '22.)

 

Inherited these contracts:

$145M/5 Sale- 11 GS/48 IP in 3 years w 3.17 ERA

$51M/3 Nate- 61 GS/340 IP in 3 seasons w 3.79 ERA

$28M/2 Pedey- 0 PAs '20 to '21

$12M/2 ERod- missed 2020 season

 

Inherited farm that produced only Houck from mid 2017 to mid 2022 (5 years)

 

Context matters.

Even with context, he is doing a lousy job, imo.

[moonslav59]

Even with context, he is doing a lousy job, imo.

 

You expected improvement within that context? The team has averaged 84 wins, the last 2 seasons- exactly what it was in 2019.

 

Just the farm, alone was a massive drag on team building, especially when it started 2 years before DD even left. He had very few guys producing well at pre-arb costs, then, he forced to cut the budget.

 

Is there really no way your expectations were set a bit too high?

[mvp 78]

One name completely omitted from the Sox middle infield list is Andrelton Simmons.

 

Last year, Simmons was a part time player for the Cubs. Two years ago, when with the Twins, Simmons accounted for an outstanding 15 DRS, good for second in MLB.

 

He has had some injuries, but if remotely healthy, might be the best for it for the Sox and their lightweight infield…

 

He hasn't been a 1 fWAR player since 2019. 538 OPS, 53 wRC+ since the start of 2021. I don't know what he has left in the tank.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

You expected improvement within that context? The team has averaged 84 wins, the last 2 seasons- exactly what it was in 2019.

 

Just the farm, alone was a massive drag on team building, especially when it started 2 years before DD even left. He had very few guys producing well at pre-arb costs, then, he forced to cut the budget.

 

Is there really no way your expectations were set a bit too high?

 

Are there any Red Sox fans who don't expect at least equal value back in the context of trades?

 

None of Bloom's major trades have added significant longterm talent to the Red Sox. Getting McGuire for Diekman was a wash, since Diekman was Bloom's fault in the first place. It was great Schwarber helped them make a run, but he obviously wasn't valued enough to be part of the core going forward.

 

I still have hope for the Vazquez and Renfroe returns. I have absolutely none for the Benintendi haul. I like Verdugo, because he helped get rid of Price, but Dugie will have to buy a ticket to visit the Hall of Fame to see Mookie's plaque someday.

[notin]

He hasn't been a 1 fWAR player since 2019. 538 OPS, 53 wRC+ since the start of 2021. I don't know what he has left in the tank.

 

I could handle 15 DRS from a ninth hitting sub-.600 OPS shortstop…

[notin]

Are there any Red Sox fans who don't expect at least equal value back in the context of trades?

 

None of Bloom's major trades have added significant longterm talent to the Red Sox. Getting McGuire for Diekman was a wash, since Diekman was Bloom's fault in the first place. It was great Schwarber helped them make a run, but he obviously wasn't valued enough to be part of the core going forward.

 

I still have hope for the Vazquez and Renfroe returns. I have absolutely none for the Benintendi haul. I like Verdugo, because he helped get rid of Price, but Dugie will have to buy a ticket to visit the Hall of Fame to see Mookie's plaque someday.

 

 

McGuire for Diekman was absolutely not a wash, and it doesn’t matter who brought in Diekman. He dumped a player whom wasn’t working out and brought in one who has so far. That was absolutely a good trade.

 

I think it’s too early to give up on Winckowski. He still could be a solid contributor, but he doesn’t look like a starter right now.

 

And German is up next to prove something…

[moonslav59]

Are there any Red Sox fans who don't expect at least equal value back in the context of trades?

 

None of Bloom's major trades have added significant longterm talent to the Red Sox. Getting McGuire for Diekman was a wash, since Diekman was Bloom's fault in the first place. It was great Schwarber helped them make a run, but he obviously wasn't valued enough to be part of the core going forward.

 

I still have hope for the Vazquez and Renfroe returns. I have absolutely none for the Benintendi haul. I like Verdugo, because he helped get rid of Price, but Dugie will have to buy a ticket to visit the Hall of Fame to see Mookie's plaque someday.

 

Saying expectations were too high does not absolve Bloom of the many mistakes he made, and most were his trades.

 

If you want to discount the McGuire trade, because he had mistakenly signed Diekman, then you should discount the JBJ trade, because that never happens, if Bloom didn't sign renfroe in the first place.

 

It's hard for me to hold the Betts trade against Bloom, because it seems a trade was forced, and from all reports, there wasn't really anything significantly better out there to get back- maybe marginally better.

 

The Beni trade was weird. I think they had issues with him going off on his own with conditioning and looked to save about $3M by dealing him and deepening the farm. One could argue we used the $3M savings to fill his OF slot with Renfroe, but one could also say we filled it with marwin.

 

The JBJ-Renfroe trade was horrific. There is no sugar coating it. It was bad on so many levels, including its affect on going over the lux tax line. I don't think these three trades not happening would have led to us winning a ring, though.

 

On the flip side, the Pivetta and McGuire trades were good. The Schwarber, Robles, Iggy, TShaw and Pham trades helped for short periods and gave up next to nothing. The Ottavino trade looks decent, even if German does not do well.

 

The worst part about all these trades is that just about all of them involved us getting prospects in return, but no great ones. Most were marginal. A few still have some hopes, but many are already out of our system or showing no more hope than the day we got them.

 

Some remaining hope:

German

Wong

EValdez & WAbreu

Winckowski

Hamilton

Ferguson & Rosier

Luis de la Rosa

 

Very little hope:

Binelas

Koss

RHern

Gambrell

 

Gone:

Seabold

Downs

Rosario, Potts and many others

 

Bloom has done much better with Rule 5, waivers and minor league FAs:

Whitlock

Schreiber

Refsnyder

Kelly

Arroyo

Ort