A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[notin]

The Sox had one of the worst bullpens in MLB this past season. And it cost them quite a few games. Major improvement is needed, not just a couple of tweaks . This should be priority number one.

 

I do hope they improve, but the whole idea that they just need a closer is a massive oversimplification.

 

They got rid of Diekman, Robles, Strahm, Davis and Sawamura and will hopefully follow suit with Ort and a couple others.

 

They probably keep Barnes and Brasier, much to my chagrin.

 

Right now the bullpen looks like those two with Houck, Schreiber, and Kelly. And Taylor if he recovers…

Edited November 8, 2022 by notin

[moonslav59]

The Sox had one of the worst bullpens in MLB this past season. And it cost them quite a few games. Major improvement is needed, not just a couple of tweaks . This should be priority number one.

 

I'd say filling Bogey's shows, finding a RF'er and at leat one SP'er to replace wacha, Nate & Hill are just as high a priority as the pen.

 

Our pen could look like:

 

Houck

Whitlock

Schreiber

Barnes

Taylor

Crawford

Kelly/German

 

looks as good or better than...

 

Arroyo and Downs at SS

 

Duran/Refsnyder at corner OF

 

Winckowski/Seabold filling a SP slot or two

Edited November 8, 2022 by moonslav59

[notin]

The contrarian.

 

 

So then what was your point, besides the Sox not currently having a closer who was top ten all time in saves?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

I'd say filling Bogey's shows, finding a RF'er and at leat one SP'er to replace wacha, Nate & Hill are just as high a priority as the pen.

 

Our pen could look like:

 

Houck

Whitlock

Schreiber

Barnes

Taylor

Crawford

Kelly/German

 

looks as good or better than...

 

Arroyo and Downs at SS

 

Duran/Refsnyder at corner OF

 

Wwickowski/Seabold filling a SP slot or two

 

Throw me up for that ughfest.

[mvp 78]

You counting on next year working out like 2007, or 2013? Seems like a big risk to me. I don’t think Koji will pop up.

 

I'm not counting on a WS championship, but I'm not saying it's impossible.

[mvp 78]

I understand your first point like the Red Sox in 2013, but I just think any team is better off with a good, lock down, reliable closer.

 

Like Kimbrel in Boston and LA?

[mvp 78]

The 2013 example is interesting.

 

We had traded Reddick for Andrew Bailey before the 2012 season and had hopes he might close in 2013.

 

We traded Melancon to Pitt for Holt and Hanrahan before the 2013 season, in hopes Joel could maybe be our closer.

 

We signed Uehara before the 2013 season as a RP'er "capable of being a closer," but with just one save from 2011-2012. I think he is the type we might be looking for., but so is every team. Koji has an 0.693 WHIP from 2011-2012 (101 IP.)

 

It's not really a road map to future success, but it worked before!

[mvp 78]

i'm not sure anyone disagrees. The question is where do we go lighter, so we can spend more on a closer?

 

dh, c, 1b... Ss

[mvp 78]

What if it looked like the Phillies’ bullpen of 2022?

 

Losers.

[Old Red]

I do hope they improve, but the whole idea that they just need a closer is a massive oversimplification.

 

They got rid of Diekman, Robles, Strahm, Davis and Sawamura and will hopefully follow suit with Ort and a couple others.

 

They probably keep Barnes and Brasier, much to my chagrin.

 

Right now the bullpen looks like those two with Houck, Schreiber, and Kelly. And Taylor if he recovers…

 

Nobody said anything about just needing a closer. Whitlock, and Houck to me should also be in the backend, and you can add Schreiber. Getting a closer, and one more good arm would be a good start.

[moonslav59]

Throw me up for that ughfest.

 

I'm not saying any are pretty, but which slot looks ugliest?

 

IMO, it's not the pen. Hence, the pen is not the clear #1 priority, although we all agree it needs serious attention.

[mvp 78]

Papelbon was already an established closer in 2007, but he wasn't before 2006. Uehara was not considered a closer at the start of 2013.

 

Nobody said he was "another Papelbon" at the start of 2013.

 

Of course, we'd all like to see someone resembling a lock-down closer on the 2023 roster, but I'd be happy going into 2023 with Montero, Fulmer, Houck, Strahm and maybe Whitlock in the mix. (I'm not counting out Barnes, either, and maybe Taylor can come back as a decent set-up guy, too.)

 

If Bloom said "Whitlock is our closer going forward" everyone would be fine with it.

[notin]

Nobody said anything about just needing a closer. Whitlock, and Houck to me should also be in the backend, and you can add Schreiber. Getting a closer, and one more good arm would be a good start.

 

Post 3145 of this thread did.

 

I just want two stellar relievers. If one closes, fine. If Houck gets first shot at closing, I get why. Ditto Schreiber.

 

But two good relievers is a must, regardless of role or arm they throw with. (One can be Whitlock, but probably won’t be.)

[Old Red]

Like Kimbrel in Boston and LA?

 

Not the Kimbrel who ended in Boston, and LA, but the younger version yes.

[mvp 78]

I should have said since they both left New York... Gray has pitched in 92 games. Paxton has pitched in one.

 

But I won't argue health. It's probably the story with every pitching staff since the beginning of time... yet it somehow with Bloom rotations it seems like an even bigger factor than talent and potential.

 

Hell, when I was healthy, even I was much better (at a few things, anyway).

 

Yeah, that would have been quite the qualification. Paxton has the opportunity to really be a big time pitcher if he stays healthy, which is the High Reward. Gray is just fine...

[moonslav59]

If Bloom said "Whitlock is our closer going forward" everyone would be fine with it.

 

True, and many might be okay, if he said the same about Houck, as long as he beefed up the set-up men, especially if Whitlock is not in the pen.

 

Nobody would be fine with Bloom saying...

 

"Downs will be our starting SS."

 

"Refsnyder and Duran will platoon at corner OF."

 

"Winckowski will be our 5th SP'er."

[Old Red]

If Bloom said "Whitlock is our closer going forward" everyone would be fine with it.

 

I thought that year, but he wasn’t as lock down last year as he was the year before, so set up yes, but not sure about closer.

[dgalehouse]

So then what was your point, besides the Sox not currently having a closer who was top ten all time in saves?

 

My point is just what it has been. In today's game , the bullpen is extremely important. That starts with a top of the line closer . Then you build around that. Hopefully with several high velocity set up men. The Sox have not been able to do that recently. And it has hurt them. Also, someone else brought up 2007 . That is why I mentioned Papelbon.

[Old Red]

True, and many might be okay, if he said the same about Houck, as long as he beefed up the set-up men, especially if Whitlock is not in the pen.

 

Nobody would be fine with Bloom saying...

 

"Downs will be our starting SS."

 

"Refsnyder and Duran will platoon at corner OF."

 

"Winckowski will be our 5th SP'er."

 

You are really taking it to the extreme with this kind of lineup. Henry has plenty of money to spend if he wants to, and not use your minor league examples. Might as well thrown in Franchy too.

[mvp 78]

… which means what?

 

I don’t see anyone capable of being Manny or Ortiz either.

 

I’m not saying the Sox don’t need bullpen help, but comparing their current and even future staff to all time top ten players will always be wrong…

 

Devers is an adequate replacement for Papi. The Manny replacement would be signing Judge for ridiculous money.

[moonslav59]

We know we need serious help on the pitching staff. It's not clear exactly which areas need the most help until a few questions are answered or known- some may not be known, until the season starts, so we have to plan for various answers. I count at least 10 big Q's:

 

1. Will Whitlock, start, closer, be a relief ace or be a set-up/long man, again?

2. Will Houck recover from his back injury?

2B. Will Houck close, be a set-up man or start?

3. Can we count on Schreiber to be a solid set-up man in 2023?

4. Did Barnes do enough in 2022 to give us serious hopes he can help, significantly in 2023?

5. Is there any hope Taylor can return at pre 2022 levels?

6. Can Kelly or German (or both) morph into RP'ers we can count on in higher leverage situations as the season progresses?

7. Can we count on Crawford or Winckoski to fill the long relief/spot start role, effectively?

8. Just how good will Bello be in 2023?

9. Can we count on just one from these kids to shine in 2023- Mata, Walter, Ward, Murphy?

10. Last, but not least, what the hell can we expect? "Freakin'" Chris Sale or Chris "Freakin'" Sale?

Edited November 8, 2022 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

I do hope they improve, but the whole idea that they just need a closer is a massive oversimplification.

 

They got rid of Diekman, Robles, Strahm, Davis and Sawamura and will hopefully follow suit with Ort and a couple others.

 

They probably keep Barnes and Brasier, much to my chagrin.

 

Right now the bullpen looks like those two with Houck, Schreiber, and Kelly. And Taylor if he recovers…

 

Barnes is going to be good in 2023. Brasier will be gone. Taylor will be gone as well.

[moonslav59]

You are really taking it to the extreme with this kind of lineup. Henry has plenty of money to spend if he wants to, and not use your minor league examples. Might as well thrown in Franchy too.

 

I'm responding to what is our #1 priority. I'm fine with listing 4-5 slots as tied for #1, but IMO, the pen is in better shape, right now, than SS, RF and the rotation. That's all this means. Stop overanalyzing! (LOL!)

Edited November 8, 2022 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

Not the Kimbrel who ended in Boston, and LA, but the younger version yes.

 

The ATL version?

[mvp 78]

We know we need serious help on the pitching staff. It's not clear exactly which areas need the most help until a few questions are answered or known- some may not be known, until the season starts, so we have to plan for various answers. I count at least 10 big Q's:

 

1. Will Whitlock, start, closer, ba relief ace or be a set-up/long man, again? START

2. Will Houck recover from his back injury? YES

2B. Will Houck close, be a set-up man or start? SET UP

3. Can we count on Schreiber to be a solid set-up man in 2023? YES

4. Did Barnes do enough in 2022 to give us serious hopes he can help, significantly in 2023? YES

5. Is there any hope Taylor can return at pre 2022 levels? NO

6. Can Kelly or German (or both) morph into RP'ers we can count on in higher leverage situations as the season progresses? HIGH LEVERAGE NO

7. Can we count on Crawford or Winckoski to fill the long relief/spot start role, effectively? YES

8. Just how good will Bello be in 2023? VERY

9. Can we count on just one from these kids to shine in 2023- Mata, Walter, Ward, Murphy? YES

10. Last, but not least, what the hell can we expect? "Freakin'" Chris Sale or Chris "Freakin'" Sale? CHRIS FREAKIN UP THE IL SALE

 

That's what I think anyway.

[Old Red]

I'm responding to what is our #1 priority. I'm fine with listing 4-5 as tied for #1, but IMO, the pen is in better shape, right now, than SS, RF and the rotation. That's all this means. Stop overanalyzing! (LOL!)

 

Everything you do is over analyzing. You have no clue what the budget will be, or anything else, and probably all the moves that Bloom makes will not come anything close to moves that you would make. The Red Sox have a good SS if they want to pay him, but they don’t have a good closer.

[notin]

Everything you do is over analyzing. You have no clue what the budget will be, or anything else, and probably all the moves that Bloom makes will not come anything close to moves that you would make. The Red Sox have a good SS if they want to pay him, but they don’t have a good closer.

 

 

So don’t have a good SS right now; all they have is exclusive negotiating rights for the next couple days. And they really only have that if Bogaerts is willing to talk…

[moonslav59]

Everything you do is over analyzing. You have no clue what the budget will be, or anything else, and probably all the moves that Bloom makes will not come anything close to moves that you would make. The Red Sox have a good SS if they want to pay him, but they don’t have a good closer.

 

Again, I know we have plenty of money to fill all 4-5 high need slots.

 

I was responding to someone who said the pen was the top priority. I stated why I felt other slots were actually higher need areas based on who we had there, now.

 

How is that overanalyzing?

 

To me, your response to my simple post was overanalyzing.

 

Of course, we will address all 4-5 slots, or we better.

 

My point was about which was weakest or weaker. It wasn't some deep dive analytical point made. I simply listed our current players at each slot and the eye test says the pen is not the weakest, right now. I'm not sure why that set you off.

[moonslav59]

So don’t have a good SS right now; all they have is exclusive negotiating rights for the next couple days. And they really only have that if Bogaerts is willing to talk…

 

Yess, Bogey opted out, but maybe some talk show clown convinced Red, he's still under our control.

[mvp 78]

Maybe a guy like Martin Perez, who signed for $4M, this year.

 

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