A Realistic View at 2023: Part I

[Larry Cook]

So, with these you forgot #5 JH sells the team to a bigger spender.

 

Wouldn’t that make for Christmas in September!!!!

[Larry Cook]

 

Folks - players getting injured is not the fault of the medical staff. When you stub your toe at home or cut yourself shaving, do you blame your doctor then, too? Their athletes doing physical things and that can cause physical pain. It’s part of sports…

 

So all I guess the definition of accountability as it relates to the over abundance of soft tissue injuries we have had this year is completely alien to you?

[moonslav59]

Wouldn’t that make for Christmas in September!!!!

 

I hope you are being sarcastic.

 

Henry has been the best thing to happen to the Sox in almost 90 years.

[notin]

So all I guess the definition of accountability as it relates to the over abundance of soft tissue injuries we have had this year is completely alien to you?

 

Are you saying the medical staff is causing these injuries?

[jad]

I hope you are being sarcastic.

 

Henry has been the best thing to happen to the Sox in almost 90 years.

 

I think the best thing that has happened to the Sox in 90 years are the players: Williams, Yaz, Boggs, Pedro, Bogaerts, etc. Shouldn't rabid fans of owners be reading WSJ and following the stock market?

[Bellhorn04]

I think the best thing that has happened to the Sox in 90 years are the players: Williams, Yaz, Boggs, Pedro, Bogaerts, etc. Shouldn't rabid fans of owners be reading WSJ and following the stock market?

 

I know what he means, and I agree. Of course the players are what we watch, but being a fan is a lot more fun when your team is winning titles.

 

And like it or not, ownership and management have a lot to do with putting those title-winning teams together.

 

Just got our power back BTW.

[moonslav59]

I think the best thing that has happened to the Sox in 90 years are the players: Williams, Yaz, Boggs, Pedro, Bogaerts, etc. Shouldn't rabid fans of owners be reading WSJ and following the stock market?

 

Of course I enjoy watching the players and the great game of baseball more than an owner. I hardly know anything about Henry.

 

He is still, b y far, the best thing that has happened to the Red Sox for over 80 years. It's not even close.

 

Without him, we'd still have zero rings since 1918. Unless you think we'd have won without him, there is no debate, IMO.

[Larry Cook]

Are you saying the medical staff is causing these injuries?

 

No! Training regiments are designed around specific players and when not executed properly, the chance for injuries increase exponentially.

[notin]

No! Training regiments are designed around specific players and when not executed properly, the chance for injuries increase exponentially.

 

Ok.

 

But who ultimately executes a training regimen?

 

You don’t even say the training regimens were faulty here…

[notin]

I think the best thing that has happened to the Sox in 90 years are the players: Williams, Yaz, Boggs, Pedro, Bogaerts, etc. Shouldn't rabid fans of owners be reading WSJ and following the stock market?

 

He meant as an owner.

 

What owner has been better for the Sox in the past 90 years?

[notin]

I think the best thing that has happened to the Sox in 90 years are the players: Williams, Yaz, Boggs, Pedro, Bogaerts, etc. Shouldn't rabid fans of owners be reading WSJ and following the stock market?

 

Bogaerts? Your all time greats list included Bogaerts?

 

Over Rice, Evans, Nomar, Papi, Rico, and Pedroia?

 

Bogaerts ranks 18th in fWAR for the Sox over the last 90 years, behind Dom DiMaggio…

[moonslav59]

He meant as an owner.

 

 

No, I meant what person has been the best thing that has happened to the Sox in over 80 years.

 

Not who was the best person to watch.

 

Sure, we don't win in 2004 and 2007 without Papi, Manny and maybe a couple other players. 2013 without Papi, too.

 

We don't win in 2018 without a handful of key players, but JH is directly responsible for all 4 rings and a bunch of highly competitive non ring teams.

 

Without Henry we'd be looking at 100+ years without a ring.

 

It's not close.

[jad]

He meant as an owner.

What owner has been better for the Sox in the past 90 years?

 

That's not what he says above, though.

[jad]

Bogaerts? Your all time greats list included Bogaerts?

 

Over Rice, Evans, Nomar, Papi, Rico, and Pedroia?

 

Bogaerts ranks 18th in fWAR for the Sox over the last 90 years, behind Dom DiMaggio…

 

Dude, did you read the "etc." part? This is about whether players are more important than owners. You did not ask me to evaluable thousands of RS players of the last century and a half, or to list them in that order.

[jad]

I know what he means, and I agree. Of course the players are what we watch, but being a fan is a lot more fun when your team is winning titles.

 

And like it or not, ownership and management have a lot to do with putting those title-winning teams together.

Just got our power back BTW.

 

Excellent! We got two windy days, but not even serious swells (at least, not today).

[moonslav59]

That's not what he says above, though.

 

What player has played a major part in us winning 4 rings, since 1918?

 

I never said I enjoy following, watching or rooting for Henry over many of the great players the Sox have had since I have followed them in the early 70's of from 1918 to the 70's. I said Henry was the most important.

 

It's not the same thing.

[jad]

What player has played a major part in us winning 4 rings, since 1918?

 

I never said I enjoy following, watching or rooting for Henry over many of the great players the Sox have had since I have followed them in the early 70's of from 1918 to the 70's. I said Henry was the most important.

 

It's not the same thing.

 

And I don't think he's as important as the players. (In fact, I can only name one other RS owner, and I don't give a crap about him either.). But I suppose if you reframe the argument to apply to single players only? I'll take Ted Williams over Henry any day. As for owners in general, let's see how many sports team owners I can name off the top of my head: Jerry Jones, R. Sarver, James Dolan, Donald Sterling, Frank McCourt ... I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here.

[Old Red]

No, I meant what person has been the best thing that has happened to the Sox in over 80 years.

 

Not who was the best person to watch.

 

Sure, we don't win in 2004 and 2007 without Papi, Manny and maybe a couple other players. 2013 without Papi, too.

 

We don't win in 2018 without a handful of key players, but JH is directly responsible for all 4 rings and a bunch of highly competitive non ring teams.

 

Without Henry we'd be looking at 100+ years without a ring.

 

It's not close.

I don’t think the Red Sox didn’t win in 1946, or 1967, or 1975, or 1978, or 1986, because JH wasn’t the owner.

[Nick]

Trevor Story ‘would love’ Red Sox to sign Xander Bogaerts longterm; ‘I want to play with him for a long, long time’

 

I don't doubt Xander's durability, not sure about Story.

[moonslav59]

I don’t think the Red Sox didn’t win in 1946, or 1967, or 1975, or 1978, or 1986, because JH wasn’t the owner.

 

He was way too young, back then.

 

Certainly ownership and management were often blamed for not going the extra mile to add 1 or 2 more key pieces, especially that "second ace."

[notin]

I don’t think the Red Sox didn’t win in 1946, or 1967, or 1975, or 1978, or 1986, because JH wasn’t the owner.

 

That you single out 5 seasons in an 86 year stretch more than makes the point…

[jad]

I don’t think the Red Sox didn’t win in 1946, or 1967, or 1975, or 1978, or 1986, because JH wasn’t the owner.

 

Ha! Exactly. And that is brilliantly expressed.

[Old Red]

Ha! Exactly. And that is brilliantly expressed.

 

I could have said in the last 100 years, but these are just a FEW examples.

[moonslav59]

Ha! Exactly. And that is brilliantly expressed.

 

It took an owner willing to pay a steep price for a second ace (Schilling, then Beckett, then Lackey, then Price) plus paying top dollar for guys like Manny, Damon and JD (some, like AGon and Crawford did not work out as well) to get over the hump.

 

I'm not slighting the greatness of Williams, Yaz and others, but ownership and management held those teams back just enough to prevent rings.

[Old Red]

It took an owner willing to pay a steep price for a second ace (Schilling, then Beckett, then Lackey, then Price) plus paying top dollar for guys like Manny, Damon and JD (some, like AGon and Crawford did not work out as well) to get over the hump.

 

I'm not slighting the greatness of Williams, Yaz and others, but ownership and management held those teams back just enough to prevent rings.

 

Okay once again, and I’m not saying JH has not been a good owner, because I think he has, but some of you have your take, and some of us will have ours as usual.I think circumstances on the field in just the years I listed had more to do with the Red Sox not winning than who the owner was.

Edited September 25, 2022 by Old Red

[Old Red]

That you single out 5 seasons in an 86 year stretch more than makes the point…

 

I could have listed every year, but I think MOST got the point.

[Nick]

Tell me again how ownership group "held those teams back" with Yaz, Williams and others?

 

I didn't realize owners could buy free agents back then.

 

I see how easy it is to change history.

[moonslav59]

Okay once again, and I’m not saying JH has not been a good owner, because I think he has, but some of you have your take, and some of us will have ours as usual.I think circumstances on the field in just the years I listed had more to do with the Red Sox not winning than who the owner was.

 

Once again, I never said you or an yone else called JH a bad or even mediocre owner.

 

I won't speak to the pre-70's Sox, but to me, we never won a ring until we had two aces and a solid team behind them.

 

It took an owner who had the foresight and financial will to make it happen.

 

In now way, am I slighting the great players the Sox had before Henry, or discounting some of the freaky circumstances that prevented rings between 1918 and 2004, including the 1975 injury to Rice, the Buckner game, and so many other near misses not related to the any lack of skills by Sox teams past.

 

That management team of the 70's knew talent but botched so many aspects, such as not sending Fisk his contract offer in time, that ownership has to share in a large share of the blame for never winning that decade.

 

We also stuck with a racist owner for longer than most cities.

 

I understand your position and others and totally respect it.

[moonslav59]

Tell me again how ownership group "held those teams back" with Yaz, Williams and others?

 

I didn't realize owners could buy free agents back then.

 

I see how easy it is to change history.

 

Teams were able to spend big to get young talent. Some "unsignable" draftees often fell to later picks and then signed with bigger spending teams like the Yanks (and even the Sox later in the century.)

 

Many called the Royals the Yankee farm team, because the often traded higher priced players to the Yanks.

 

Ownership hires the GMs and that decides who plays on the team, even before free agency. I will say my point was more about the 70's and beyond, and some of my points, like the need for a second ace, did not really apply pre-free agency.

 

Point well taken.

[dgalehouse]

It is up to the owner to spend what it takes to put together a team capable of winning a championship. When it comes down to winning it , it is up to the players to do it. The owner has no control over that. Dave Roberts had to steal that base. John Henry could not do it.