5/31 Reds @ SOX

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Looks like Story Land is closed again.

 

It'll reopen in a couple of weeks.

[jacksonianmarch]

Just got home. That’s a bad loss

[JDavis76]

It'll reopen in a couple of weeks.

 

Or it could be the scene when the Griswolds get to Wally World.....

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Kind of similar to the 2021 ALCS.

[JDavis76]

Just got home. That’s a bad loss

 

They were lucky to avoid the shut out.....

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Just got home. That’s a bad loss

 

As compared to what? A good loss?

[Old Red]

Ahem. I believe you are on record as saying the only guy who counts in the bullpen--and perhaps on the entire team-- is the closer. This is going to come as a shock to you, but the Sox right now are losing, so first and foremost they need to score runs.

 

I don’t believe I said the closer is the only guy in the bullpen that counts, or on the entire team. The closer does count the most in the 9th inning with a 1 run lead, but you have to get to that point first. Both bullpens played a big role in the game tonight with the Red Sox keeping it to a 2 run game, and the Reds protecting a run, and 2 run lead some the Red Sox pen has had a hard time doing, and thus leading the league in blown saves.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Nothing like losing to the Reds to bring out the trolls.

[Maxbialystock]

Sox lose 2-1 on 2 unearned runs by the Reds--one from Devers throwing error, the other from Bogey's throwing error. Plus Bogey was hitless with 2 K's.

 

Why do Old Red and others keep insisting this entire season rests on a freaking closer when there are so many other issues that are dragging them down?

 

In that 5 game losing streak a month ago, the Sox scored 5, 0, 2, 1, and 2 runs. In their last three losses (2 to the Orioles, 1 to the Reds), the Sox have scored 2, 0, and 1 runs. During roughly the same timeframe (3 of the last 9 games) the Sox scored 16, 16, and 12 runs in 3 other games. Clearly, the hitting is very inconsistent. Feast or famine.

 

I do not believe the fix is to shell out $500M (or more) to keep Bogey and Devers. Both are good hitters, but defensive liabilities. Sale is simply a liability.

[moonslav59]

I don’t believe I said the closer is the only guy in the bullpen that counts, or on the entire team. The closer does count the most in the 9th inning with a 1 run lead, but you have to get to that point first. Both bullpens played a big role in the game tonight with the Red Sox keeping it to a 2 run game, and the Reds protecting a run, and 2 run lead some the Red Sox pen has had a hard time doing, and thus leading the league in blown saves.

 

Many of the blown saves came before the 9th, so it's not like having the best closer in MLB means all 12 blown saves go away.

 

We lack an 8th inning guy.

 

We lack a 7th inning guy.

 

We lack a second ninth inning guy to pitch when your closer needs a rest.

 

We lack an 8th inning guy to pitch when your 8th inning guy need s a rest.

 

I seriously doubt having the best closer in the league would give us more than 4 more wins.

[illinoisredsox]

2nd and third, no outs and 2 of your best hitters up.

 

This team is snakebit.

 

 

JD has to put the ball in play there. That was the big out of the inning.

 

That being said, Castillo is a damn good pitcher who was nasty tonight.

[illinoisredsox]

Many of the blown saves came before the 9th, so it's not like having the best closer in MLB means all 12 blown saves go away.

 

We lack an 8th inning guy.

 

We lack a 7th inning guy.

 

We lack a second ninth inning guy to pitch when your closer needs a rest.

 

We lack an 8th inning guy to pitch when your 8th inning guy need s a rest.

 

I seriously doubt having the best closer in the league would give us more than 4 more wins.

 

Well summed up.

[JDavis76]

Look at the bright side, at least the orioles lost and they didn't gain any ground on the sox......

[JDavis76]

Well summed up.

 

The easy way to sum it up is to just say the sox pretty much need a bullpen......

[Maxbialystock]

I don’t believe I said the closer is the only guy in the bullpen that counts, or on the entire team. The closer does count the most in the 9th inning with a 1 run lead, but you have to get to that point first. Both bullpens played a big role in the game tonight with the Red Sox keeping it to a 2 run game, and the Reds protecting a run, and 2 run lead some the Red Sox pen has had a hard time doing, and thus leading the league in blown saves.

 

Yes, the Sox lead MLB in blown saves with 12. But, as I said earlier, the Rays have 10 blown saves and are 28-21, the Padres have 9 blown saves and are 30-18, the Jays have 10 blown saves and are 28-20, the Mets have 9 blown saves and are 33-17, and the Angels have 9 blown saves and are 27-23. So clearly other teams lack great closers but don't lose nearly as many games as the Sox.

 

By the way, did you know that in their very good postseason last year the Sox won 6 and lost 5 vs. the Yankees, Rays, and Astros--and that in those six wins they had absolutely no saves and in those five losses they just just one blown save, but it was in the 6th freaking inning? Or that Kimbrel absolutely stunk (ERA 5.19) in the 2018 postseason but still had 6 freaking saves?

 

I would like a good closer, but I challenge the belief that the lack of a good closer is this team's big issue.

[Old Red]

Many of the blown saves came before the 9th, so it's not like having the best closer in MLB means all 12 blown saves go away.

 

We lack an 8th inning guy.

 

We lack a 7th inning guy.

 

We lack a second ninth inning guy to pitch when your closer needs a rest.

 

We lack an 8th inning guy to pitch when your 8th inning guy need s a rest.

 

I seriously doubt having the best closer in the league would give us more than 4 more wins.

 

Then how did 8 losses come after the Sox were ahead, or tied in the 8th, and 9th inning? If the Red Sox had the best closer in the league I believe they wouldn’t be leading the league in blown saves, and have 8 more wins. Once again Cora, and Bloom are to blame for this at the moment a losing team.

[Old Red]

Yes, the Sox lead MLB in blown saves with 12. But, as I said earlier, the Rays have 10 blown saves and are 28-21, the Padres have 9 blown saves and are 30-18, the Jays have 10 blown saves and are 28-20, the Mets have 9 blown saves and are 33-17, and the Angels have 9 blown saves and are 27-23. So clearly other teams lack great closers but don't lose nearly as many games as the Sox.

 

By the way, did you know that in their very good postseason last year the Sox won 6 and lost 5 vs. the Yankees, Rays, and Astros--and that in those six wins they had absolutely no saves and in those five losses they just just one blown save, but it was in the 6th freaking inning? Or that Kimbrel absolutely stunk (ERA 5.19) in the 2018 postseason but still had 6 freaking saves?

 

I would like a good closer, but I challenge the belief that the lack of a good closer is this team's big issue.

well 12 blown saves means you had the lead 12 times, and lost the game starting opening day when Whitlock was put in to get a 4 inning save. 12 losses is 12 losses, which I repeat they did have a lead.

[vegasbob]

If any stats were ever deceptive, it is looking at batting stats over a reasonable period ( no SSS's). On average the Red Sox have scored plenty of runs in May but as Max said, it's feast or famine. We saw enough AB's in April and early May by 3 guys hitting well over .300/.900 range who could not touch the O's nor Reds starters the last 2 days.

It may sound trite but Parcell's was correct--You are what your record says you are and that is 23-26 at the end of May.

To reach 90 wins ( maybe #6 playoff spot) the team will need to go 67- 46 , a .592 clip. Can it be done, sure anything is possible.

[harmony]

If any stats were ever deceptive, it is looking at batting stats over a reasonable period ( no SSS's). On average the Red Sox have scored plenty of runs in May but as Max said, it's feast or famine. We saw enough AB's in April and early May by 3 guys hitting well over .300/.900 range who could not touch the O's nor Reds starters the last 2 days.

It may sound trite but Parcell's was correct--You are what your record says you are and that is 23-26 at the end of May.

To reach 90 wins ( maybe #6 playoff spot) the team will need to go 67- 46 , a .592 clip. Can it be done, sure anything is possible.

Should that record be 23-27?

[Maxbialystock]

well 12 blown saves means you had the lead 12 times, and lost the game starting opening day when Whitlock was put in to get a 4 inning save. 12 losses is 12 losses, which I repeat they did have a lead.

 

Most of those losses were because the hitting sucked. Long starts are almost a thing of the past even though Eovaldi just went 9, winning 5-3. Saves are a dumb stat because you can get a blown save in early innings and you can get a save when you give up 2 runs in the 9th inning.

 

As moonslav has stated and I wholeheartedly agree, the real problem is a weak bullpen. A good one can take a 1 run lead at the end of 6 innings and keep it.

Edited June 1, 2022 by Maxbialystock

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Most of those losses were because the hitting sucked. Long starts are almost a thing of the past even though Eovaldi just went 9, winning 5-3. Saves are a dumb stat because you can get a blown save in early innings and you can get a save when you give up 2 runs in the 9th inning.

 

As moonslav has stated and I wholeheartedly agree, the real problem is a weak bullpen. A good one can take a 1 run lead at the end of 6 innings and keep it.

 

And despite your other posts about 2021, the Red Sox bullpen also stunk last postseason. It's the main reason Boston fell two wins short of the World Series. Virtually every reliever got lit up, so much so that Cora had to try using starters as closers. Both dramatic walkoff wins vs. Tampa were made possible because the pen coughed up late leads.

 

The Sox bats were shut down at the end of the ALCS, but Boston could've won the first four straight if the bullpen didn't lose two of them. The turning point in Game Four came after they blew another late lead and Cora tried using Eovaldi at the end. He lost, they lost, and the team that made deals for actual good relievers at the trade deadline won the pennant. Then the club with the best bullpen won it all.

[moonslav59]

Then how did 8 losses come after the Sox were ahead, or tied in the 8th, and 9th inning? If the Red Sox had the best closer in the league I believe they wouldn’t be leading the league in blown saves, and have 8 more wins. Once again Cora, and Bloom are to blame for this at the moment a losing team.

 

So, the best closer in the league never blows saves?

 

So, has we not started Whiltock, his replacement would have done just as well, and not lost any of the game we won when he started?

 

You are assuming perfection from the closer, and equality from Whitlock's replacement. You are also assuming what we spent on a closer would not have affected other spending and created a hole somewhere else. Maybe we signed a closer and not Strahm and Wacha. Still gain 8 wins?

 

Are you assuming we signed everyone we did sign plus a top closer?

 

Once again, you won't tell your plan or ideas- just some vague, "should have got a closer," or "Whitlock as the closer..."

 

Look, I'm not saying Cora and Bloom are blameless, and that going with this pen to start the year was a good idea, or that counting on Sale, then Paxton to be good, this year was prudent, but there were only so many dollars to spend, and we had 2-3 holes in the rotation, 2-3 holes in the pen, a hole at 2B, and 2-3 holes in the OF, plus a catcher who can't hit or handle a staff very well.

 

Expecting a GM and manager to strike gold at every slot needing improvement on a limited budget is not logical. Blame who you want. The blame game seems to be the way of the world, now.

 

I'm giving Bloom more time to fix a system that was very broken, when he took over. I think he's done a pretty good job along the way. We won't know, for sure, for a while longer, and I understand the impatience and the feeling that we are wasting prime years from Bogey, Devers and JD. We can't trade them for the future, of Sox Nation will go bonkers. We can't sign big FAs to supplement these few stars, because Henry won't allow it. We did better than expected, last year, and are doing worse than expected, this year, but when you look at 2020, we've come a long way.

 

Maybe the farm does not pan out. Maybe they are as good as the guys DD traded 4-5 years ago, and Bloom would be right to trade a bunch of them, before their value drops. Maybe he should have traded some, already.

 

I'm just thinking the farm appears to be improving quickly and deeply, and the area we have always struggled in, pitching, is looking better than I've seen in a long time. We'll see what happens, and ultimately, Bloom will be judged by that and his signings/trades. Like most GMs, he's been hit and miss on many of them, so far. We've seen some massive decline by Sox players in or nearing their prime. I guess Bloom is responsible for not knowing that was going to happen.

 

I think he did well replacing Richards and Perez with Wacha and Hill, replacing Ottavino with Strahm. Maybe a push on Schreiber/Diekman for Andriese and others, and too early to call on replacing Renfroe, Marwin, Santana & Chavis (plus in season additions of Schwarber, Iggy & Shaw) with JBJ & Story. These moves are not the reason we have sucked; it's the players who were already here and dropped off a cliff that are the main reason for the sharp decline in wins, IMO.

[moonslav59]

well 12 blown saves means you had the lead 12 times, and lost the game starting opening day when Whitlock was put in to get a 4 inning save. 12 losses is 12 losses, which I repeat they did have a lead.

 

How many games did we start behind or tied and the pen kept us in the game, and we either won of failed to score enough to win? How would taking Whitlock out of his long man/starter role have affected those games? How do we know Whitlock would have excelled in a 1 inning traditional role, when his history as a closer is tiny and not so good?

 

You make a lot of assumptions, and tend to only see the good side of taking someone out of one role and putting him in another.

 

Sure, we lost some games Whitlock started, but only two because of him- maybe.

 

I'm not disagreeing about giving Whitlock or Houck a chance at closing, but assuming we'd have won way more games is just a guess.

[moonslav59]

Well summed up.

 

Maybe taking Whitlock out of his starting and long relief roles means we have less save opportunities, later.

 

The guy did great in long relief, last year and has done well, this year, too. It's not a simple equation.

 

Now, in hindsight, not using Houck as a piggy-backer and maybe using him as a closer, might have made a bigger difference than moving Whitlock out of a role he has done well in.

[notin]

well 12 blown saves means you had the lead 12 times, and lost the game starting opening day when Whitlock was put in to get a 4 inning save. 12 losses is 12 losses, which I repeat they did have a lead.

 

1. You’re double dipping. Several of those blown save games were started by Whitlock

 

2. Not all blown saves are losses. The Sox had a blown save in the Franchy Walk Off Grand Slam Game, for example.

 

3. Some blown saves come really early. Brasier has one in the fifth inning this year, which I didn’t think was possible. (Apparently it is but you have to be the second or later pitcher out of the bullpen.). If you’re advocating for a closer, you shouldn’t be putting too much stock in fifth inning leads being lost…

[Bellhorn04]

We have a Piggybacker in Houck and a Pigpen in Barnes, Brasier, Diekman et al. It's kind of the Year of the Pig for the Sox.

[moonslav59]

Maybe someday I'll go over each of our losses and or blown save games, but a quick look at the numbers shows we are 23-3 when going into the 9th with a lead. Now, some of those games were surely not save situations but I'm not sure how we'd have 8 more wind with a great traditional 9th inning closer- be it Whittlock or Raul Iglesias.

 

We are 20-4 when leading in the 8th, and 19-5 in the 7th. I suppose we blew some saves in some of those wins, by allowing the opponent to tie the game, and we then scored to win a few. We can't assume every blown save leads to a loss, and it is also possible to have multiple blown saves in the same game.

 

We are 1-7 in extra inning games, where traditional closers are not used very often in tie games.

 

We are also 0-19 when behind in the 8th and 9th. (0-18 in the 7th.)

[moonslav59]

1. You’re double dipping. Several of those blown save games were started by Whitlock

 

2. Not all blown saves are losses. The Sox had a blown save in the Franchy Walk Off Grand Slam Game, for example.

 

3. Some blown saves come really early. Brasier has one in the fifth inning this year, which I didn’t think was possible. (Apparently it is but you have to be the second or later pitcher out of the bullpen.). If you’re advocating for a closer, you shouldn’t be putting too much stock in fifth inning leads being lost…

 

I seriously doubt a perfect 9th inning closer adds 8 wins to our total, as Red suggests.

 

Taking Whitlock out of the long relief/stater role, where he as dove pretty well, to be the 1 inning closer would hurt our chances at even getting to a save opportunity in those games.

[Bellhorn04]

Our starting pitching has been pretty good.

 

Our offense has been very sporadic.

 

Our bullpen generally stinks.

 

Sounds like a .500 team to me.

[Old Red]

Maybe taking Whitlock out of his starting and long relief roles means we have less save opportunities, later.

 

The guy did great in long relief, last year and has done well, this year, too. It's not a simple equation.

 

Now, in hindsight, not using Houck as a piggy-backer and maybe using him as a closer, might have made a bigger difference than moving Whitlock out of a role he has done well in.

 

Listening to the radio this morning, and the first thing being talked about was the Red Sox bullpen, and specifically the back end of the BP. What was said is that Whitlock is just an average starter, and long story short Whitlock should be the closer, and Houck should be the setup man. Bloom, and Cora have done nothing to fix the BP, and here we are 50 games into the season with a losing record. Like I keep saying on this forum that I’m in the vast minority that wants Whitlock to close, but outside this forum the majority that I hear want Whitlock to close. Very interesting don’t you think? Like I keep saying Red Sox Nation is very big, and usually when I hear different venues the story is completely different kind of like Fox, and CNN, but like I keep saying EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion.