How much would you offer Devers?

[Old Red]

You've said that you don't care about OPS.

 

I’ve been on record many times if it’s anything to do with analytics then I don’t care about it. My stance is well know, and there is nothing wrong with that stance just like there is nothing wrong with the people who do.

[Bellhorn04]

I’ve been on record many times if it’s anything to do with analytics then I don’t care about it. My stance is well know, and there is nothing wrong with that stance just like there is nothing wrong with the people who do.

 

The thing is you're all over the place. You say there's nothing wrong with people liking analytics and then you call them nerds and say the analytics are only good if they're on toilet paper.

[Jasonbay44]

OPS isn’t even an analytical stat

[Old Red]

The thing is you're all over the place. You say there's nothing wrong with people liking analytics and then you call them nerds and say the analytics are only good if they're on toilet paper.

 

On one of my many sports venues I visit the F&M show they refer to the people who run the Red Sox as the analytics nerds. I don’t think they are using that in a negative light, but just the way they do things, and I certainly don’t use it in a negative light either. I don’t use, or need analytics to watch, or judge any sport, and yes to me I would only use it if it was on paper in the bathroom. On the other hand other people use it, and need it like it’s the Holy Bible of baseball. The problem being to some on here is me not wanting any part of analytics causes problems, because it doesn’t match their opinions. Just by me saying Renfroe outhit Mookie last year, and didn’t clarify it only meat HR, and RBI caused all this back, and forth, and with all that no one’s opinions got changed, so round, and round we go when all we had to do was agree to disagree, but that for some reason seems to be a hard thing to do on here.

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

Devers' offense has never been in question. And now that his defense has vastly improved he has become a pretty much complete ballplayer. IMHO, he's not gonna give the SOX a 'hometown discount', that very rarely occurs, if ever. I'm guessing that if the SOX want to keep Raffy, it'll have to be no less than 10 years at between 300 and 330 milllion. Of course, what Devers does this year and next may influence the amount of the contract, but I seriously doubt, injuries aside, that he won't continue to improve.

Also, there is no doubt in my mind that Devers is the best under 26 year old everyday player in MLB. He's 2 years, 3 months younger than Ohtani.

Edited May 22, 2022 by SPLENDIDSPLINTER

[Larry Cook]

Would we get competitive balance draft pick if/when bogey or devers leave?

[notin]

Would we get competitive balance draft pick if/when bogey or devers leave?

 

I don’t get one

[moonslav59]

Would we get competitive balance draft pick if/when bogey or devers leave?

 

I'm not sure those hold enough value to even think it matters losing one or both of these guys.

 

[vjcsmoke]

How much to keep Raffy beyond 2023?

 

We have to sign Devers. He is the red sox best player and hasn't even entered his prime yet at age 25. If bloom loses devers, his head must roll. You can't lose homegrown superstar talent for nothing.

 

The red sox dumped all-star/mvp caliber outfielder mookie betts for verdugo and a grab bag of prospects and their outfield is one of the worst in MLB right now. We also dumped the 30 homerun bat of hunter renfroe and acquired a negative bat, sub .600 ops, in jackie bradley jr.

 

All of these wounds are self-inflicted. Dumping home-grown talent in favor of paying free agents who end up doing very little for us compared to the players that we lost.

 

Talent is going out instead of coming in, that's the wrong way to grow the team, and don't tell me it's about saving money when you blew 140m dollars on a 30 year old second baseman. It's just bad baseball moves, period. KEEP Devers, or get the hell out of our town, Bloom!!

[moonslav59]

If bloom loses devers, his head must roll. You can't lose homegrown superstar talent for nothing.

 

If we lose Devers it will be with henry's blessing. Should his head roll, too?

 

Bloom did not extend Sale.

 

He did sign Story and extend Barnes, but I doubt those contracts are keeping us from extending Devers to a market rate contract.

[moonslav59]

We have to sign Devers. He is the red sox best player and hasn't even entered his prime yet at age 25. If bloom loses devers, his head must roll. You can't lose homegrown superstar talent for nothing.

 

The red sox dumped all-star/mvp caliber outfielder mookie betts for verdugo and a grab bag of prospects and their outfield is one of the worst in MLB right now.

 

We also avoided paying Betts $40m X 10+ and half of Price's contract for several years. That money saved helped us sign Renfroe, Kike, Wacha, Hill and Starhm plus many more to come.

 

It was not just about one year of Betts for a "grab bag."

[moonslav59]

 

All of these wounds are self-inflicted. Dumping home-grown talent in favor of paying free agents who end up doing very little for us compared to the players that we lost.

 

Yes, we should have kept Nomar, Ellsbury and Workman.

[vjcsmoke]

If we lose Devers it will be with henry's blessing. Should his head roll, too?

 

First of all that's a strawman argument. You literally can't fire the owner.

 

But if the GM makes a bunch of bad moves and puts the team in worse position than before, the owner has every right to use his brain and say, hey you know what I made a BAD HIRE, I should FIRE this Bloom dude and get someone else who can do a better job!

 

Second of all that argument makes ZERO sense. If you were to accept that nonsense premise, it would mean that no GM in the history of baseball would ever be held responsible for any bad moves they made because it was 'done with the owner's blessing'. Talk about logical fallacy!

Edited May 24, 2022 by vjcsmoke

[mvp 78]

We have to sign Devers. He is the red sox best player and hasn't even entered his prime yet at age 25. If bloom loses devers, his head must roll. You can't lose homegrown superstar talent for nothing.

 

The red sox dumped all-star/mvp caliber outfielder mookie betts for verdugo and a grab bag of prospects and their outfield is one of the worst in MLB right now. We also dumped the 30 homerun bat of hunter renfroe and acquired a negative bat, sub .600 ops, in jackie bradley jr.

 

All of these wounds are self-inflicted. Dumping home-grown talent in favor of paying free agents who end up doing very little for us compared to the players that we lost.

 

Talent is going out instead of coming in, that's the wrong way to grow the team, and don't tell me it's about saving money when you blew 140m dollars on a 30 year old second baseman. It's just bad baseball moves, period. KEEP Devers, or get the hell out of our town, Bloom!!

 

Having players like Mookie, Xander and Raffy in your organization and not keeping them around for their entire careers is just bad business IMO. Maybe I'll be wrong in the long run, but I don't see it that way. Mookie is athletic as hell and should age well into his 30's. Xander can move off SS when you need him too. Devers has improved his D at 3b and could be there another 5-6 years easy.

 

These players just don't come around all that often. We should build around them rather then ship them off.

[vjcsmoke]

Having players like Mookie, Xander and Raffy in your organization and not keeping them around for their entire careers is just bad business IMO. Maybe I'll be wrong in the long run, but I don't see it that way. Mookie is athletic as hell and should age well into his 30's. Xander can move off SS when you need him too. Devers has improved his D at 3b and could be there another 5-6 years easy.

 

These players just don't come around all that often. We should build around them rather then ship them off.

 

Agree 1000%!!

[moonslav59]

First of all that's a strawman argument. You literally can't fire the owner.

 

But if the GM makes a bunch of bad moves and puts the team in worse position than before, the owner has every right to use his brain and say, hey you know what I made a BAD HIRE, I should FIRE this Bloom dude and get someone else who can do a better job!

 

Second of all that argument makes ZERO sense. If you were to accept that nonsense premise, it would mean that no GM in the history of baseball would ever be held responsible for any bad moves they made because it was 'done with the owner's blessing'. Talk about logical fallacy!

 

It's you making the strawman argument. Where did I say or even hint Bloom is not accountable?

 

Of course Henry's head will not roll. I was making a point about not signing Devers being more of Henry's call than Bloom's. If henry gives Bloom $110M, next winter, and he chooses to sign let-down free agents instead of extending Devers, then of course, it's all on Bloom, but he was just barely been given his first freedom to sign a longer term guy a couple months ago (Story.) Can we give the guy a chance?

 

It's not like Bloom's moves have burdened the budget. It's not like the totality of Bloom's moves have been s*****. He brought a team crippled with debt and a sad bottom 20 on the 40 man roster and $40M to fix it.

 

Only Story's contract continues past 2022, unless you want to count Diekman's $4M for 2023, then he's done.

 

This next winter is Bloom's make or break period. The Story signing will be part of his evaluation after 2023. If we suck by then, I won't be defending Bloom.

 

No, you can't fire the owner, but fans can blame him or Bloom for losing Devers, and I'm sure they both will get roasted, if we lose him.

 

[Old Red]

Having players like Mookie, Xander and Raffy in your organization and not keeping them around for their entire careers is just bad business IMO. Maybe I'll be wrong in the long run, but I don't see it that way. Mookie is athletic as hell and should age well into his 30's. Xander can move off SS when you need him too. Devers has improved his D at 3b and could be there another 5-6 years easy.

 

These players just don't come around all that often. We should build around them rather then ship them off.

 

Well said, and I agree. The only point is that while Mookie is a super talent I just just don’t think he would have stayed even if the money was even with the Dodgers, while I think Bogey would stay for a little less, and Raffy is going to have to be paid what ever the going rate is. Only basically getting Dugy for Mookie was bat enough, and yes I know we got rid of some Price money, but Bogey going out the door will be less than that. I heard discussed on the radio today that Bogey walking out would be a bigger loss than Mookie, and NO they wasn’t saying Bogey is a better player than Mookie, but with his stature in the clubhouse, and on, and off the field that you can’t measure with any kind of stats including the analytics.

[mvp 78]

Well said, and I agree. The only point is that while Mookie is a super talent I just just don’t think he would have stayed even if the money was even with the Dodgers, while I think Bogey would stay for a little less, and Raffy is going to have to be paid what ever the going rate is. Only basically getting Dugy for Mookie was bat enough, and yes I know we got rid of some Price money, but Bogey going out the door will be less than that. I heard discussed on the radio today that Bogey walking out would be a bigger loss than Mookie, and NO they wasn’t saying Bogey is a better player than Mookie, but with his stature in the clubhouse, and on, and off the field that you can’t measure with any kind of stats including the analytics.

 

I don't deny that arguments like that have merit.

[moonslav59]

Well said, and I agree. The only point is that while Mookie is a super talent I just just don’t think he would have stayed even if the money was even with the Dodgers, while I think Bogey would stay for a little less, and Raffy is going to have to be paid what ever the going rate is. Only basically getting Dugy for Mookie was bat enough, and yes I know we got rid of some Price money, but Bogey going out the door will be less than that. I heard discussed on the radio today that Bogey walking out would be a bigger loss than Mookie, and NO they wasn’t saying Bogey is a better player than Mookie, but with his stature in the clubhouse, and on, and off the field that you can’t measure with any kind of stats including the analytics.

 

We also risk getting nothing but a comp pick for Bogey and some salary to try and replace him with.

 

With Betts, we traded 1 year, that turned out to be 60 games, for Verdugo, some questionable prospects and some salary relief that lasted until the end of this year with Price.

 

It's hard to compare the two, and I kinda felt Betts was a big part of the clubhouse attitude, too.

[a700hitter]

Having players like Mookie, Xander and Raffy in your organization and not keeping them around for their entire careers is just bad business IMO. Maybe I'll be wrong in the long run, but I don't see it that way. Mookie is athletic as hell and should age well into his 30's. Xander can move off SS when you need him too. Devers has improved his D at 3b and could be there another 5-6 years easy.

 

These players just don't come around all that often. We should build around them rather then ship them off.

Mookie hit his 11th HR tonight. He is an elite generational talent and Bloom traded him. Hopefully, he doesn’t make the same mistake with Devers.

[moonslav59]

Mookie hit his 11th HR tonight. He is an elite generational talent and Bloom traded him. Hopefully, he doesn’t make the same mistake with Devers.

 

Do you honestly think Henry okay'd Bloom to outbid the Dodgers or extend him before he became a FA at maybe near $380M?

 

It wasn't Bloom's fault DD (and maybe Henry) chose Sale and Eovaldi over Betts.

[a700hitter]

Do you honestly think Henry okay'd Bloom to outbid the Dodgers or extend him before he became a FA at maybe near $380M?

 

It wasn't Bloom's fault DD (and maybe Henry) chose Sale and Eovaldi over Betts.

If you want to free Bloom from blame, go ahead, but someone made the mistake, and the same cast of characters are still in place.

[a700hitter]

Betts with HR #12 tonight.

[moonslav59]

If you want to free Bloom from blame, go ahead, but someone made the mistake, and the same cast of characters are still in place.

 

I'm not trying to free Bloom of blame, but why not answer the question?

 

Should he have countered with $380M, even if Henry said he had to reset the tax line?

[Bellhorn04]

I'm not trying to free Bloom of blame, but why not answer the question?

 

Should he have countered with $380M, even if Henry said he had to reset the tax line?

 

You're talking about DD now. DD was GM that fateful offseason of 2018-2019 when offers between the team and Mookie were exchanged.

[notin]

Mookie hit his 11th HR tonight. He is an elite generational talent and Bloom traded him. Hopefully, he doesn’t make the same mistake with Devers.

 

I don’t think Bloom had much choice. Trade him or keep him around for one more 60 game season in which the Sox ace was already out. Betts was going to extend for anything less than the GNP of Canada. Even the Sox most free-spending GM of all time was unable to satisfy him.

 

I’m not even sure how willing he was to extend with LA. By the time he signed, he’d been part of their organization for 5 months, and MLB had already cancelled spring training and the first third of the season and there was no end in sight. It’s a really safe bet Friedman spent all of those 5 months trying to talk extension. It’s an equally safe bet he also spent them all sweating profusely.

 

You come out here and you’d think Bloom traded Betts with the same whimsy with which the Dodgers dealt Pedro to the Expos, and all Betts wanted was any extension at all…

[Bellhorn04]

I don’t think Bloom had much choice. Trade him or keep him around for one more 60 game season in which the Sox ace was already out. Betts was going to extend for anything less than the GNP of Canada. Even the Sox most free-spending GM of all time was unable to satisfy him.

 

I’m not even sure how willing he was to extend with LA. By the time he signed, he’d been part of their organization for 5 months, and MLB had already cancelled spring training and the first third of the season and there was no end in sight. It’s a really safe bet Friedman spent all of those 5 months trying to talk extension. It’s an equally safe bet he also spent them all sweating profusely.

 

You come out here and you’d think Bloom traded Betts with the same whimsy with which the Dodgers dealt Pedro to the Expos, and all Betts wanted was any extension at all…

 

If we're placing the blame for Mookie leaving on the head of baseball ops, then it should be DD who gets the blame. He was here for the prime years in which to sign Mookie to an extension.

 

I don't see blaming DD or Bloom, myself. They're not the ones who decide how much is too much. If there's any blame it's on ownership. They did not want to go the distance.

[moonslav59]

You're talking about DD now. DD was GM that fateful offseason of 2018-2019 when offers between the team and Mookie were exchanged.

 

No, I'm also talking about when Bloom took over. People act like he was free to sign Betts for over $300M, and it's on him for trading him away and not re-signing or extending him. My point is, he did not have that choice. I don't think Henry would have approved going over the tax line or totally gutting the rest of the players around Betts.

 

Look at the 2020 season. Bloom spent $40M to fill about 10 slots and we still had one of the worst roster depth team in my memory. Had we used that $40M on Betts, we'd have a team of 20 replacement players going into 2021, too.

 

I'm not buying the idea that Henry did not have set spending limit he gave Bloom over his time here, and that amount was way lower than DD got. Plus, he had very few highly ranked prospects, at the time, to trade and improve the guys around Betts, Bogey & Devers.

 

WE can argue about what we got for Betts, but IMO, he was a gonner before and during Blooms first years here.

[moonslav59]

If we're placing the blame for Mookie leaving on the head of baseball ops, then it should be DD who gets the blame. He was here for the prime years in which to sign Mookie to an extension.

 

I don't see blaming DD or Bloom, myself. They're not the ones who decide how much is too much. If there's any blame it's on ownership. They did not want to go the distance.

 

You said it better than I.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

If we're placing the blame for Mookie leaving on the head of baseball ops, then it should be DD who gets the blame. He was here for the prime years in which to sign Mookie to an extension.

 

I don't see blaming DD or Bloom, myself. They're not the ones who decide how much is too much. If there's any blame it's on ownership. They did not want to go the distance.

 

Ownership hired Bloom to trade Betts (and Price). Losing a Hall of Famer about to enter his prime is momentous and franchise-altering, and they entrusted Bloom with the ensuing alterations...