How much would you offer Devers?

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Exactly. How can we knock Henry's modus operandi when we have the most titles since he bought the team?

 

We have 4, the Yankees have 1, the Dodgers have 1.

 

Many posters point this out. Others also contend that a big part of following and rooting for a team as a fan involves continuity.

 

Like what if the '19 Red Sox traded for or signed the entire Washington Nationals roster, then two years later swapped uniforms with the '21 Braves? We could still jump up and down and cheer, "Yeah, Boston won again!" Would it feel the same? (I always wondered about that with Yankee fans, when free agency began in the 70s, and NY kept signing big name superstars with rings every single year).

[moonslav59]

OPS just isn't the end-all, be-all magic stat for me when comparing ballplayers.

 

How about five of six years of at least 4.5 WAR for Rendon? Devers has had one.

 

Granted, Rafey will be younger when he signs his big free agent contract. But one could also argue that Rendon was more established by actual accomplishments.

 

Yes, Raffy's D has held down his WAR, but the age point is still valid. I don't like the comp.

 

I mentioned Devers improving defense, that should bring his WAR up while he's still younger than Rendon during his best years.

 

fWAR/BWAR age

Rendon

23. 0.4/1.0

24. 6.4/6.5

25. 1.1/0/5

26. 4.5/3.5

27. 5.9/6.1

28. 6.0/5.1

29. 6.8/7.1

30. 2.5/2.2

31. 0.2/0.0 COVID

32. 1.2/1.1 so far

 

Devers 0.7

20. 1.0/0.9

21. 6.7/5.4

22. 0.8/0.7

23. 4.3/3.5

24. 2.5/2.2

 

Exact same fWAR age 34 + age 24 seasons.

[moonslav59]

Many posters point this out. Others also contend that a big part of following and rooting for a team as a fan involves continuity.

 

Like what if the '19 Red Sox traded for or signed the entire Washington Nationals roster, then two years later swapped uniforms with the '21 Braves? We could still jump up and down and cheer, "Yeah, Boston won again!" Would it feel the same? (I always wondered about that with Yankee fans, when free agency began in the 70s, and NY kept signing big name superstars with rings every single year).

 

I don't see it as the revolving door like the Yankee big FA signing years.

 

We've done pretty well with the stars we let go, and we've had enough continuity to keep me a happy Sox fan, so far.

 

If we lose Betts, Bogey and Devers, it will remind me of the dismantling of the teams of the 70's, but we sucked after that. We may not, this time.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

 

If we lose Betts, Bogey and Devers, it will remind me of the dismantling of the teams of the 70's, but we sucked after that. We may not, this time.

 

After the clueless arrogant old men in charge bungled the Red Sox in the early 80s -- and New England lost star players like Fisk, Lynn and Burleson -- the rebound for Boston was led by good, young starting pitchers. It was the first time in my life as a fan that homegrown pitching was a strength for the Sox.

 

Maybe we're on the verge of developing our best mound depth since Papelbon and Lester made it in the 00s...

[redsoxrules]

I don't understand why some of you say that Devers is still young at 26 and should be getting better. a lot of players on that list I just saw were pumping out of the gate 900 OPS seasons in their early 20s

[moonslav59]

I don't understand why some of you say that Devers is still young at 26 and should be getting better. a lot of players on that list I just saw were pumping out of the gate 900 OPS seasons in their early 20s

 

Correct, and that's a list of the most elite hitters since 2019. Devers is on the list. Of course the 4 younger players highlighted in red have exceeded Devers at early ages.

 

I did not mean to imply he was better than those on the list, but just being named on that list is an honor.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2022 by moonslav59

[mvp 78]

@alexspeier

Within this story on the past, present, and future of Devers: He reiterated his hopes of revisiting extension talks with the Red Sox in the offseason. “I love this place. I want to be here.”

 

When John Henry f***s this up...............

[notin]

Many posters point this out. Others also contend that a big part of following and rooting for a team as a fan involves continuity.

 

Like what if the '19 Red Sox traded for or signed the entire Washington Nationals roster, then two years later swapped uniforms with the '21 Braves? We could still jump up and down and cheer, "Yeah, Boston won again!" Would it feel the same? (I always wondered about that with Yankee fans, when free agency began in the 70s, and NY kept signing big name superstars with rings every single year).

 

Fans may want continuity, but players prefer money.

 

The 2018 Red Sox had 4 players clearly earmarked for salaries in the $25-40mill range AAV (Betts, Devers, Sale, Bogaerts). Do fans honestly expect any team to shell out some $100mill to $140mill on 10% of the roster? How are the other 36 players going to get paid? Some of them might prefer a tad over the league minimum?

[mvp 78]

Fans may want continuity, but players prefer money.

 

The 2018 Red Sox had 4 players clearly earmarked for salaries in the $25-40mill range AAV (Betts, Devers, Sale, Bogaerts). Do fans honestly expect any team to shell out some $100mill to $140mill on 10% of the roster? How are the other 36 players going to get paid? Some of them might prefer a tad over the league minimum?

 

Yes, that's how it works with superstars.

[mvp 78]

Also, factoring in 14 guys sitting in AAA as "part of the roster" is kinda weird since I don't think fans think about it that way.

[notin]

Also, factoring in 14 guys sitting in AAA as "part of the roster" is kinda weird since I don't think fans think about it that way.

 

They may not think of it that way, but those salaries count toward luxury tax limits and are therefore part of the budget…

[notin]

Yes, that's how it works with superstars.

 

And it would work closer to that if the Sox never brought in highly paid free agents from the outside. But at some point, it gets difficult for any team to afford it. Especially since it turns into a long term commitment…

[notin]

Yes, that's how it works with superstars.

 

And so far, the Sox did commit to one of those superstars. And even with the discounted price, how is Sale working out?

[Bellhorn04]

And it would work closer to that if the Sox never brought in highly paid free agents from the outside. But at some point, it gets difficult for any team to afford it. Especially since it turns into a long term commitment…

 

Why are you talking about "any team" when the highest payroll teams are spending 5-6 times as much as the lowest payroll teams?

[moonslav59]

They may not think of it that way, but those salaries count toward luxury tax limits and are therefore part of the budget…

 

Yes, but they don't make the ML min salary.

 

The player benefits, which is about $16M also counts on the lux tax budget, so if your subtract that plus what you pay the 14 guys in the minors, the percent you pay your highest paid guys looks even higher.

[mvp 78]

And so far, the Sox did commit to one of those superstars. And even with the discounted price, how is Sale working out?

 

The working out part is irrelevant. They have not committed to any of the other 3. Plus, I'm not sure most fans would have considered Sale in the top 4 at the time he re-signed the way you did. He was coming off an injury and was working out of the pen in the playoffs. He wasn't exactly leading up the rotation at that point.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

The working out part is irrelevant. They have not committed to any of the other 3. Plus, I'm not sure most fans would have considered Sale in the top 4 at the time he re-signed the way you did. He was coming off an injury and was working out of the pen in the playoffs. He wasn't exactly leading up the rotation at that point.

 

Boston gave Sale the going rate for an ace pitcher at the time, after being named an All-Star and voted in the top six for the Cy Young Award seven straight years.

 

The Red Sox were probably paying for what they hoped were three or four more seasons of greatness -- and saving themselves another $5 million a year (if they waited and risked a bidding war for Sale if he reached free agency).

 

Those who immediately cautioned he was damaged goods were right. When he jumped at the offer, I was worried that he knew they were correct...

[moonslav59]

Boston gave Sale the going rate for an ace pitcher at the time, after being named an All-Star and voted in the top six for the Cy Young Award seven straight years.

 

The Red Sox were probably paying for what they hoped were three or four more seasons of greatness -- and saving themselves another $5 million a year (if they waited and risked a bidding war for Sale if he reached free agency).

 

Those who immediately cautioned he was damaged goods were right. When he jumped at the offer, I was worried that he knew they were correct...

 

I think the money they gave Sale factored in an expected missed season.

 

They also factored in he'd be Chris freakin' Sale the other 4 years and not Freakin' Chris Sale.

[mvp 78]

I think the money they gave Sale factored in an expected missed season.

 

They also factored in he'd be Chris freakin' Sale the other 4 years and not Freakin' Chris Sale.

 

If they anticipated an entire missed season an possible TJS, they should have also anticipated that TJS for older pitchers is not quite the slam dunk it is for younger pitchers.

[Bellhorn04]

We really have no idea what they anticipated with Sale. He did pitch 147 innings in 2019 and struck out 218. His FIP was 3.39.

[notin]

The working out part is irrelevant. They have not committed to any of the other 3. Plus, I'm not sure most fans would have considered Sale in the top 4 at the time he re-signed the way you did. He was coming off an injury and was working out of the pen in the playoffs. He wasn't exactly leading up the rotation at that point.

 

I said the Sox had 4 players who would command money in a specific range. Sale got money in that range, injury or not.

 

That he isn’t working out is a negative scenario, but very a possibility for any of those 4.

 

The point is - trying to retain all 4, or even the other 3, was always going to be difficult if not impossible. Especially on a team that clearly does not want to operate with a budget over $240mill.

 

But let’s leave Sale out and live in a hypothetical world where the Sox keep Bogaets, Betts and Devers at a realistic AAV of $90mill for the three.

 

So next year, who pitches?

[notin]

We really have no idea what they anticipated with Sale. He did pitch 147 innings in 2019 and struck out 218. His FIP was 3.39.

 

We know they anticipated paying him $125 mill over 5 years…

[moonslav59]

If they anticipated an entire missed season an possible TJS, they should have also anticipated that TJS for older pitchers is not quite the slam dunk it is for younger pitchers.

 

Indeed.

 

My point was based on the idea that Sale would Chris Freakin' Sale for 4 years and his a contract for $145M/4 for that Chris Sale is not unreasonable. They gave him $145M/5, and appear to be very wrong on the assumption he'd return to form and for 4 years.

 

I'm not trying to compare Verlander to Sale. THere are way to many differences between them, including length of deals, but the Atsros gave Verlander $66M/2 and he gave them 6 IP over those 2 years. They were not all that deterred and gave him $25M/1 for this year. I guess we are not the only team wishing an aging pitcher can keep pitching very well. Not everyone is a Scherzer.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Not everyone is a Scherzer.

 

... who wore down in the playoffs last year for LA, and who is hurt again for NY. In between, he's been great, but $40M can buy a lot of Wachas.

 

There are no sure things in the workhorse mound trade, but the best bets are always guys in their primes...

 

... or if you're in charge of a budget, younger arms you can lock up and control. And like with Whitlock's signing, that may be the plan for who Bloom considers his core of sustained contenders.

[moonslav59]

... who wore down in the playoffs last year for LA, and who is hurt again for NY. In between, he's been great, but $40M can buy a lot of Wachas.

 

There are no sure things in the workhorse mound trade, but the best bets are always guys in their primes...

 

... or if you're in charge of a budget, younger arms you can lock up and control. And like with Whitlock's signing, that may be the plan for who Bloom considers his core of sustained contenders.

 

I agree.

 

Wachas sometimes are Martin Perez's and Richards, too.

[Bellhorn04]

I said the Sox had 4 players who would command money in a specific range. Sale got money in that range, injury or not.

 

That he isn’t working out is a negative scenario, but very a possibility for any of those 4.

 

The point is - trying to retain all 4, or even the other 3, was always going to be difficult if not impossible. Especially on a team that clearly does not want to operate with a budget over $240mill.

 

But let’s leave Sale out and live in a hypothetical world where the Sox keep Bogaets, Betts and Devers at a realistic AAV of $90mill for the three.

 

So next year, who pitches?

 

You can't keep all your stars, that much should be obvious.

 

I think the payroll has to be viewed as a pie chart.

[moonslav59]

You can't keep all your stars, that much should be obvious.

 

I think the payroll has to be viewed as a pie chart.

 

So, choose the best one...

 

DEVERS FOREVERS!

[Bellhorn04]

So, choose the best one...

 

DEVERS FOREVERS!

 

I'm on board, believe me.

 

Especially because he looks like he's really been working on his physical conditioning and fielding skills.

[Larry Cook]

You can't keep all your stars, that much should be obvious.

 

I think the payroll has to be viewed as a pie chart.

 

Bogey and devers are franchise cornerstones. You do what you need to do to keep them. You use your minor league system to bring in young (future) promising players around then and fill the rest of the roster with short term free agents.

 

Aka ….. the Atlanta blue print.

[moonslav59]

I'm on board, believe me.

 

Especially because he looks like he's really been working on his physical conditioning and fielding skills.

 

That and he seems to be a natural hitter unfazed by tough times.

 

I think he has better years ahead.