A Realistic View at 2022: Part III

[Old Red]

But Whitlock is better than all those guys, so he should start. If Whitlock can start and handle the load, that's where he's going to be the most valuable to this team.

 

Whitlock hasn’t proven he’s better than all those guys as a starting pitcher. I’ll go with Eck’s opinion. He knows more than we do, and without a reliable closer as this team found out to start the season this team won’t go anywhere.

[Hugh2]

Whitlock hasn’t proven he’s better than all those guys as a starting pitcher. I’ll go with Eck’s opinion. He knows more than we do, and without a reliable closer as this team found out to start the season this team won’t go anywhere.

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I believe Whitlocks stuff is much better, he came up as a starter and has a starter's makeup. He moved to the bullpen because he was recovering from an injury and the Sox were trying to get him work in while keeping him on the roster. I want to see Houck in the closers role, I also want to see more of Bello, this doesn't help us in the near term but I think if he fails as a starter he could excel in the back of a bullpen with his stuff.

[oldtimer]

The Wacha performance last night was our best pitching demonstration this year. I have not been expecting him to be in the Red Sox plans in 2023 but maybe he is a better bet than Paxton.

[Old Red]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I believe Whitlocks stuff is much better, he came up as a starter and has a starter's makeup. He moved to the bullpen because he was recovering from an injury and the Sox were trying to get him work in while keeping him on the roster. I want to see Houck in the closers role, I also want to see more of Bello, this doesn't help us in the near term but I think if he fails as a starter he could excel in the back of a bullpen with his stuff.

Agree to disagree it is.

[moonslav59]

The Wacha performance last night was our best pitching demonstration this year. I have not been expecting him to be in the Red Sox plans in 2023 but maybe he is a better bet than Paxton.

 

He's a FA, so we'll have to outbid the other teams or offer hima QO, which would probably take.

[Maxbialystock]

Whitlock hasn’t proven he’s better than all those guys as a starting pitcher. I’ll go with Eck’s opinion. He knows more than we do, and without a reliable closer as this team found out to start the season this team won’t go anywhere.

 

I don't disagree that Whitlock just might be a pretty darn good closer, just as Eckersley turned out to be. But you and Eck are completely disregarding context, specifically, the overall pitching weakness of this team.

 

Read my lips: the Sox team ERA of 4.35 is ranked 14th out of 15 AL teams. It stinks to high heaven. And that means Cora hasn't had the options he might otherwise have to make Whitlock a one inning closer.

 

Last night with a 3-0 lead going into the 8th inning, Cora brought in Brasier with his 5.20 ERA to pitch the 8th inning, which worked and which is why Whitlock only had to pitch the 9th for the save. But it was a gamble, which you would have been the first to call him out on if the Yankees had scored in the 8th. Naturally, you take the 5th on the 8th because to you Cora can do nothing right.

 

I don't remember Eck's repertoire when he was a starter, but I know Whitlock's, and it's pretty good--good enough to be considered a starter on a team whose rotation this year has been torn apart by injuries. Also good enough to pitch 2 and 3 innings in relief which is what he was so terrific at doing last season.

[Hugh2]

Agree to disagree it is.

 

Ok, but for the record I don't think I'm the only one who has said Whitlock has the best stuff of all those guys, although I think an argument could be made for Bello in terms of pure stuff. Whitlock hasn't proven himself as a starter because he hasn't really been used as a starter, but for what information we have.....he's been better than those other guys.

 

As a starter ERA WHIP

Whitlock 4.15 1.25

Crawford 3.70 1.09

Wink 4.69 1.49

Bello 8.47 2.29

 

You can say Crawford has proved himself more in short sample size, also Whitlcik beats out everyone else in peripherals as well H9/BB9/K9

 

Whitlock, also performed much better in the MiLB than those guys.

 

ERA/WHIP/H9/BB9/K9

 

Whitlock 2.45/1.175/8.0/2.5/8.8

Crawford 3.73/1.28/8.5/3.1/10.6

Wink 3.89/1.245/8.5/2.7/8.2

Bello 3.92/1.177/7.9/2.7/10.9

 

From a pure statistical point of View Whitlock beats everyone out except Crawford at the MLB level and Bello at the minor league level, GW has shown a lower era and slightly better control but Bello has had more swing and miss stuff. Body types, durability, developing 3rd/4th pitches and how that can change stats from milb to MLB are all things to consider to.

 

I think a very strong argument should be made for Whitlock being in the rotation. I think the Sox believe so too, which is why they are using him the way they are.

 

Another thing worth stating too is it shouldn't be Whitlock vs. anybody. If a guy is good enough to start, he should be starting....that's where he adds the most value. If you have too many starters, trade one for a proven reliever.

[Maxbialystock]

Whitlock hasn’t proven he’s better than all those guys as a starting pitcher. I’ll go with Eck’s opinion. He knows more than we do, and without a reliable closer as this team found out to start the season this team won’t go anywhere.

 

One more time, a reminder to you and your mentor Eckersley. Last year, the Sox had a terrific postseason and had a terrific shot at the World Series until the Astros pitching shut down the Sox hitters (who scored 3 runs in the last 3 games of the ALCS).

 

On those 11 postseason games, the Sox didn't have a reliable closer and consequently never got a save. However, they also only had 1 freaking blown save in 11 games, and that blown save was by Houck in the 6th freaking inning in game 1 of the ALCS when Sale started and only lasted 2.2 innings.

 

Also, don't forget the Sox best season ever, 2018, when Kimbrel, the very high-priced closer who was actually pretty good in the regular season, absolutely stunk in the nevertheless successful postseason.

[Bellhorn04]

Bloom should have signed a better late inning reliever than Diekman. That would be my major criticism of his 2022 bullpen construction.

[moonslav59]

One more time, a reminder to you and your mentor Eckersley. Last year, the Sox had a terrific postseason and had a terrific shot at the World Series until the Astros pitching shut down the Sox hitters (who scored 3 runs in the last 3 games of the ALCS).

 

On those 11 postseason games, the Sox didn't have a reliable closer and consequently never got a save. However, they also only had 1 freaking blown save in 11 games, and that blown save was by Houck in the 6th freaking inning in game 1 of the ALCS when Sale started and only lasted 2.2 innings.

 

Also, don't forget the Sox best season ever, 2018, when Kimbrel, the very high-priced closer who was actually pretty good in the regular season, absolutely stunk in the nevertheless successful postseason.

 

There are many very knowledgeable baseball people who think Whitlock would be best used as a SP'er. Many of the best baseball minds disagree on a few things.

[Old Red]

I don't disagree that Whitlock just might be a pretty darn good closer, just as Eckersley turned out to be. But you and Eck are completely disregarding context, specifically, the overall pitching weakness of this team.

 

Read my lips: the Sox team ERA of 4.35 is ranked 14th out of 15 AL teams. It stinks to high heaven. And that means Cora hasn't had the options he might otherwise have to make Whitlock a one inning closer.

 

Last night with a 3-0 lead going into the 8th inning, Cora brought in Brasier with his 5.20 ERA to pitch the 8th inning, which worked and which is why Whitlock only had to pitch the 9th for the save. But it was a gamble, which you would have been the first to call him out on if the Yankees had scored in the 8th. Naturally, you take the 5th on the 8th because to you Cora can do nothing right.

 

I don't remember Eck's repertoire when he was a starter, but I know Whitlock's, and it's pretty good--good enough to be considered a starter on a team whose rotation this year has been torn apart by injuries. Also good enough to pitch 2 and 3 innings in relief which is what he was so terrific at doing last season.

 

Eck is disregarding context? Wow! Like I said I’ll go with Eck’s expertise, and opinion. I would not have called out anybody if the Yankees had scored in the 8th, because Whitlock had thrown 2 innings on Friday, and wouldn’t have been available to throw 2 innings last night, but thanks for thinking I would have. Schreiber pitched two innings with a game off in between, and struggled though the second time. We have different opinions, but I’ll stick with Eck.

[Bellhorn04]

I know one thing, Whitlock is a damn good pitcher. Thanks Cashman!

[moonslav59]

Bloom should have signed a better late inning reliever than Diekman. That would be my major criticism of his 2022 bullpen construction.

 

...Or, had he had better starter depth, Houck and Whitlock could have remained in the pen, all year.

 

The pen has been doing fine, since both joined it.

 

-Had Crawford pitched this well, the first time up, and been used as a SP'er- not RP'er early on, maybe we would not have needed Houck and Whitlock in the pen, so much.

-Had Wink been called up before Seabold...

-Had Wacha, Hill and Nate all gotten hurt at the same time...

-Has Sale or Paxton actually helped, late season,...

 

It took a lot to go wrong, for this mess to have occured. Add to this the fact that every single returning vet, except Houck, who stayed about even, declined from 2021 to 2022. That's awfully hard to overcome.

[Maxbialystock]

Ok, but for the record I don't think I'm the only one who has said Whitlock has the best stuff of all those guys, although I think an argument could be made for Bello in terms of pure stuff. Whitlock hasn't proven himself as a starter because he hasn't really been used as a starter, but for what information we have.....he's been better than those other guys.

 

As a starter ERA WHIP

Whitlock 4.15 1.25

Crawford 3.70 1.09

Wink 4.69 1.49

Bello 8.47 2.29

 

You can say Crawford has proved himself more in short sample size, also Whitlcik beats out everyone else in peripherals as well H9/BB9/K9

 

Whitlock, also performed much better in the MiLB than those guys.

 

ERA/WHIP/H9/BB9/K9

 

Whitlock 2.45/1.175/8.0/2.5/8.8

Crawford 3.73/1.28/8.5/3.1/10.6

Wink 3.89/1.245/8.5/2.7/8.2

Bello 3.92/1.177/7.9/2.7/10.9

 

From a pure statistical point of View Whitlock beats everyone out except Crawford at the MLB level and Bello at the minor league level, GW has shown a lower era and slightly better control but Bello has had more swing and miss stuff. Body types, durability, developing 3rd/4th pitches and how that can change stats from milb to MLB are all things to consider to.

 

I think a very strong argument should be made for Whitlock being in the rotation. I think the Sox believe so too, which is why they are using him the way they are.

 

Another thing worth stating too is it shouldn't be Whitlock vs. anybody. If a guy is good enough to start, he should be starting....that's where he adds the most value. If you have too many starters, trade one for a proven reliever.

 

I love your numbers, but I also like what I see when Whitlock is on the mound. He has starter stuff, a full repertoire which he executes well.

 

More to the point, Old Red and Eckersley are blindly oblivious to the fact that there are 9 freaking innings in every game and 162 freaking games in a season. Some how, some way, the manager and his pitching coach have to find a way to prevent scoring in as many of those 9 X 162 = 1,458 innings as they can.

 

Old Red and Eckersley are laser-focused on those 40 or so 9th innings when the Sox have a 3 run or smaller lead in the 9th inning. And they are oblivious to the other 1418 innings during which opposing teams are actually allowed to score runs if they can.

[notin]

Bloom should have signed a better late inning reliever than Diekman. That would be my major criticism of his 2022 bullpen construction.

 

Mu primary criticism is he should have gotten outside replacements for Sale instead of depleting the bullpen. Obviously he would not have found another Sale, but I bet he could have gotten a pitcher to handle Sale’s innings…

[Old Red]

Ok, but for the record I don't think I'm the only one who has said Whitlock has the best stuff of all those guys, although I think an argument could be made for Bello in terms of pure stuff. Whitlock hasn't proven himself as a starter because he hasn't really been used as a starter, but for what information we have.....he's been better than those other guys.

 

As a starter ERA WHIP

Whitlock 4.15 1.25

Crawford 3.70 1.09

Wink 4.69 1.49

Bello 8.47 2.29

 

You can say Crawford has proved himself more in short sample size, also Whitlcik beats out everyone else in peripherals as well H9/BB9/K9

 

Whitlock, also performed much better in the MiLB than those guys.

 

ERA/WHIP/H9/BB9/K9

 

Whitlock 2.45/1.175/8.0/2.5/8.8

Crawford 3.73/1.28/8.5/3.1/10.6

Wink 3.89/1.245/8.5/2.7/8.2

Bello 3.92/1.177/7.9/2.7/10.9

 

From a pure statistical point of View Whitlock beats everyone out except Crawford at the MLB level and Bello at the minor league level, GW has shown a lower era and slightly better control but Bello has had more swing and miss stuff. Body types, durability, developing 3rd/4th pitches and how that can change stats from milb to MLB are all things to consider to.

 

I think a very strong argument should be made for Whitlock being in the rotation. I think the Sox believe so too, which is why they are using him the way they are.

 

Another thing worth stating too is it shouldn't be Whitlock vs. anybody. If a guy is good enough to start, he should be starting....that's where he adds the most value. If you have too many starters, trade one for a proven reliever.

 

My opinion has never been about Whitlock’s stuff, or if he could be good in the rotation, but only at this time I think he’s more valuable in the BP.

[Old Red]

I love your numbers, but I also like what I see when Whitlock is on the mound. He has starter stuff, a full repertoire which he executes well.

 

More to the point, Old Red and Eckersley are blindly oblivious to the fact that there are 9 freaking innings in every game and 162 freaking games in a season. Some how, some way, the manager and his pitching coach have to find a way to prevent scoring in as many of those 9 X 162 = 1,458 innings as they can.

 

Old Red and Eckersley are laser-focused on those 40 or so 9th innings when the Sox have a 3 run or smaller lead in the 9th inning. And they are oblivious to the other 1418 innings during which opposing teams are actually allowed to score runs if they can.

 

Max, take it easy the Sox just took 2 games from the Yankees, so don’t worry, and be happy.

[Maxbialystock]

My opinion has never been about Whitlock’s stuff, or if he could be good in the rotation, but only at this time I think he’s more valuable in the BP.

 

Your opinion has been oblivious about or completely ignored Whitlock's stuff and the need for it in more than a single inning, the 9th, in close games.

 

If you are now saying that maybe he could have started or maybe he could have pitching multiple innings (which he was great at last year), that is a major change in what you have been spouting.

 

Indeed, as I just pointed out on this thread and on the game thread, Whitlock only pitched the 9th last night because Cora gambled on Brasier and his 5.20 ERA to pitch the 8th.

[Old Red]

Mu primary criticism is he should have gotten outside replacements for Sale instead of depleting the bullpen. Obviously he would not have found another Sale, but I bet he could have gotten a pitcher to handle Sale’s innings…

 

This would have made the most sense. I don’t believe Houck, or Whitlock we’re planned for the rotation if Frail hadn’t gotten hurt, or one of the planned starters didn’t pan out. Houck was the first choice to start, and not Whitlock.

[Old Red]

Your opinion has been oblivious about or completely ignored Whitlock's stuff and the need for it in more than a single inning, the 9th, in close games.

 

If you are now saying that maybe he could have started or maybe he could have pitching multiple innings (which he was great at last year), that is a major change in what you have been spouting.

 

Indeed, as I just pointed out on this thread and on the game thread, Whitlock only pitched the 9th last night because Cora gambled on Brasier and his 5.20 ERA to pitch the 8th.

Well I’m sorry to you if I’m so oblivious. I guess it’s a major blemish I have. Thankfully there are many who have the same blemish, but just not on here, but that’s OK I’ll take the criticism.

[Maxbialystock]

Max, take it easy the Sox just took 2 games from the Yankees, so don’t worry, and be happy.

 

Hold it, right there. You started this discussion by slamming Cora for "waiting" until game 116 to use Whitlock for a one inning save. Hugh and I are simply pointing out why Whitlock's usage, last season and this, has made sense.

 

I don't disagree the Sox done good in this series, which surprised me as much as anyone else even though the Yankees are in fact in a slump.

[Old Red]

Hold it, right there. You started this discussion by slamming Cora for "waiting" until game 116 to use Whitlock for a one inning save. Hugh and I are simply pointing out why Whitlock's usage, last season and this, has made sense.

 

I don't disagree the Sox done good in this series, which surprised me as much as anyone else even though the Yankees are in fact in a slump.

Max, I fully understand I’m in the minority on the usage of Whitlock on here, but that doesn’t change my opinion, or the many others who agree with me, but for the sake of not beating this subject to death you win. Congratulations.

[Maxbialystock]

Well I’m sorry to you if I’m so oblivious. I guess it’s a major blemish I have. Thankfully there are many who have the same blemish, but just not on here, but that’s OK I’ll take the criticism.

 

Actually, I think you and Eck are by yourselves. Last year Whitlock pitched the most innings of the non-starters (relievers) and had the team's second highest pitching WAR of 2.9. And he did that in large part because his manager sent him to the mound to do so. This year you want us to believe that same manager is an idiot who failed to use Whitlock as a one inning closer this season until game 116. This year Whitlock's WAR is 1.8 (4th best on the team) despite missing 1/3 of the season to date and even though he has started games and relieved for 2 or more innings.

[dgalehouse]

One more time, a reminder to you and your mentor Eckersley. Last year, the Sox had a terrific postseason and had a terrific shot at the World Series until the Astros pitching shut down the Sox hitters (who scored 3 runs in the last 3 games of the ALCS).

 

On those 11 postseason games, the Sox didn't have a reliable closer and consequently never got a save. However, they also only had 1 freaking blown save in 11 games, and that blown save was by Houck in the 6th freaking inning in game 1 of the ALCS when Sale started and only lasted 2.2 innings.

 

Also, don't forget the Sox best season ever, 2018, when Kimbrel, the very high-priced closer who was actually pretty good in the regular season, absolutely stunk in the nevertheless successful postseason.

 

Max , With all due respect , this forum is for everyone to express their ideas and their opinions. However , you have a way of talking down to people , most notably Old Red , in a very arrogant and condescending manner . It is very off putting. And you do it a lot. That is my opinion. And here is one more opinion ; Dennis Eckersley knows more about the workings of the game of baseball than you could ever hope to know. As I said , with all due respect. No offense.

[Old Red]

Actually, I think you and Eck are by yourselves. Last year Whitlock pitched the most innings of the non-starters (relievers) and had the team's second highest pitching WAR of 2.9. And he did that in large part because his manager sent him to the mound to do so. This year you want us to believe that same manager is an idiot who failed to use Whitlock as a one inning closer this season until game 116. This year Whitlock's WAR is 1.8 (4th best on the team) despite missing 1/3 of the season to date and even though he has started games and relieved for 2 or more innings.

Max, if you think Eck, and I are by ourselves then that tells me you don’t get off here much, or at all, but that’s ok. I don’t know what the fascination is with the word idiot, but I never called Cora that, or think he is. Now I don’t think Cora is as good of a manager as lots of people think, but I like Cora.

[Old Red]

Max , With all due respect , this forum is for everyone to express their ideas and their opinions. However , you have a way of talking down to people , most notably Old Red , in a very arrogant and condescending manner . It is very off putting. And you do it a lot. That is my opinion. And here is one more opinion ; Dennis Eckersley knows more about the workings of the game of baseball than you could ever hope to know. As I said , with all due respect. No offense.

 

Thanks for the input, and like I have said, but for some it’s just hard to agree to disagree especially when it comes to having different opinions, and it shouldn’t be that way. Yes I’ll go with Eck’s opinion too, and not just, because we agree. He knows more than I do, and I admit it.

[moonslav59]

Actually, I think you and Eck are by yourselves. Last year Whitlock pitched the most innings of the non-starters (relievers) and had the team's second highest pitching WAR of 2.9. And he did that in large part because his manager sent him to the mound to do so. This year you want us to believe that same manager is an idiot who failed to use Whitlock as a one inning closer this season until game 116. This year Whitlock's WAR is 1.8 (4th best on the team) despite missing 1/3 of the season to date and even though he has started games and relieved for 2 or more innings.

 

There are probably several other smart baseball people who think Whitlock should remain in the pen as a long man, and maybe a few that want him as a 1 inning closer.

 

IMO, more people see him as being best used as a starter, since that is where the best pitchers, capable of going long innings, are going to give the most value, due mostly to getting 80-100 more IP than a traditional closer gets and maybe 40-80 over most long man RP'ers.

 

Eck is a smart guy, and I like him, and he is a fair point to bring up, but my guess is, the vast majority of GMs and managers would try to put Whitlock in the rotation, based on his ability to go long innings and a skillset that is conducive to starting (and relieving).

[harmony]

My personal rules should not be imposed on other posters but ...

 

1. Emphasize ideas by avoiding use of "I" and "you" in a post.

 

2. Make an exception to pay another poster a compliment.

 

3. Avoid sarcasm

 

4. Be kind.

[Old Red]

There are probably several other smart baseball people who think Whitlock should remain in the pen as a long man, and maybe a few that want him as a 1 inning closer.

 

IMO, more people see him as being best used as a starter, since that is where the best pitchers, capable of going long innings, are going to give the most value, due mostly to getting 80-100 more IP than a traditional closer gets and maybe 40-80 over most long man RP'ers.

 

Eck is a smart guy, and I like him, and he is a fair point to bring up, but my guess is, the vast majority of GMs and managers would try to put Whitlock in the rotation, based on his ability to go long innings and a skillset that is conducive to starting (and relieving).

To me I think how you would use Whitlock most importantly would be on what the rest of the pitching staff looks like. I think most GM’s, and managers would see the importance of having a reliable back end of the BP, and what the biggest need was for the team at the time, which I think was overlooked by the Sox to start the season. I think the Red Sox would have a better record today if Whitlock, Houck, and Schreiber had been in the back end of the BP from opening day.

[dgalehouse]

One more time, a reminder to you and your mentor Eckersley. Last year, the Sox had a terrific postseason and had a terrific shot at the World Series until the Astros pitching shut down the Sox hitters (who scored 3 runs in the last 3 games of the ALCS).

 

On those 11 postseason games, the Sox didn't have a reliable closer and consequently never got a save. However, they also only had 1 freaking blown save in 11 games, and that blown save was by Houck in the 6th freaking inning in game 1 of the ALCS when Sale started and only lasted 2.2 innings.

 

Also, don't forget the Sox best season ever, 2018, when Kimbrel, the very high-priced closer who was actually pretty good in the regular season, absolutely stunk in the nevertheless successful postseason.

 

To me I think how you would use Whitlock most importantly would be on what the rest of the pitching staff looks like. I think most GM’s, and managers would see the importance of having a reliable back end of the BP, and what the biggest need was for the team at the time, which I think was overlooked by the Sox to start the season. I think the Red Sox would have a better record today if Whitlock, Houck, and Schreiber had been in the back end of the BP from opening day.

 

Yes. Much depends on where the greatest area of need happens to be. Ideally , you would like to have a strong rotation and a top notch closer with good set up men. But in reality , you have to make the best of what you have.